Gardai not leading by example on parking, says Irish Times journalist

rivervarrig

Iwannahurl wrote: »

1. Call from whom? From somebody in authority who's more concerned about bird droppings than, say, obstructed footpaths?

2. Did you read the OP and the IT article?
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=76542076&postcount=1

yes read the article....will she go in to as much detail and make a whole article out of the good side to AGS like she did with her pen and piece of paper taking down car number plate after number plate?

Rowley Birkin QC

MagicSean wrote: »

Easier to identify but more risky to damage.

So by that logic parking them further away in a proper space would make them less likely to be identified and therefore less likely to be damaged?

MagicSean wrote: »

This is the problem when you try to run a modern police service out of ancient buildings designed for half the amount of staff.

Sorry but that's really not answering the point I made in the post you quoted, being in a badly designed building is hardly a defence for breaking the law??

rivervarrig

Iwannahurl wrote: »

1. Call from whom? From somebody in authority who's more concerned about bird droppings than, say, obstructed footpaths?

2. Did you read the OP and the IT article?
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=76542076&postcount=1

and the same people critcising the manner of parking of vehicles here will be the same people giving out that those garda patrol cars look a disgrace why dont they clean them, why dont they park them somewhere that birds cant fly.

MagicSean

Iwannahurl wrote: »

So, no evidence, sources or links then.

The point I was alluding to in that paragraph was that parking illegally/obnoxiously provides no extra protection for Garda-owned cars, AFAIK. Another poster has made the point that parking illegally/obnoxiously -- perhaps with a Garda diary in the window to inform Traffic Wardens? -- is in fact likely to highlight a vehicle as being owned by a Garda.

No links I can post off my iPhone no. Have you tried google?

And I already addressed the other point. Parking near the station is safer. Parking further away is more anonymous. Neither are absolutes.

EDIT: http://m.brne.ws/ireland/second-garda-car-is-damaged-in-north-cork-in-three-days-488645.html

Victor

MagicSean wrote: »

EDIT: https://www.emergencyservicesforum.rhe.ti=2039

Are you sure that link works? It looks peculiar.

Rowley Birkin QC

MagicSean wrote: »

No links I can post off my iPhone no. Have you tried google?

And I already addressed the other point. Parking near the station is safer. Parking further away is more anonymous. Neither are absolutes.

EDIT: https://www.emergencyservicesforum.rhe.ti=2039

You're still not addressing the fact that parking near the station may be illegal. In your opinion is it okay to park there, in doing so breaking the law, in order to reduce a perceived threat?

Where do you then draw the line in the sand in terms of laws that you can and cannot break? This is my real issue with the whole parking thing to be honest, I don't really think it causes that much of a disturbance.

MagicSean

Victor wrote: »

Are you sure that link works? It looks peculiar.

Sorry. Found a different one.

Rowley Birkin QC wrote: »

You're still not addressing the fact that parking near the station may be illegal. In your opinion is it okay to park there, in doing so breaking the law, in order to reduce a perceived threat?

Where do you then draw the line in the sand in terms of laws that you can and cannot break? This is my real issue with the whole parking thing to be honest, I don't really think it causes that much of a disturbance.

I'm just addressing some of the issues raised. I dont think it's a situation that should continue but I think it's for management to introduce a solution. The likes of Pearse street station are no longer suitable for the amount of staff in them. There needs to be some capital expenditure on new stations with proper facilities. Underground parking could be the way to go.

Rowley Birkin QC

MagicSean wrote: »

Sorry. Found a different one.



I'm just addressing some of the issues raised. I dont think it's a situation that should continue but I think it's for management to introduce a solution. The likes of Pearse street station are no longer suitable for the amount of staff in them. There needs to be some capital expenditure on new stations with proper facilities. Underground parking could be the way to go.

But until that time parking illegally is the way to go?

I'm honestly not trying to stir things up here but I really struggle with the fact that members of AGS are happy to break the law so blatantly.

Also, my company recently moved office. Some people lost their parking spots. Of those some bought bikes, others car pooled, where possible others used public transport and some moved house so they could walk to work.

In short, all of them adapted to the situation without resorting to parking illegally outside the office.

MagicSean

Rowley Birkin QC wrote: »

But until that time parking illegally is the way to go?

I'm honestly not trying to stir things up here but I really struggle with the fact that members of AGS are happy to break the law so blatantly.

Also, my company recently moved office. Some people lost their parking spots. Of those some bought bikes, others car pooled, where possible others used public transport and some moved house so they could walk to work.

In short, all of them adapted to the situation without resorting to parking illegally outside the office.

Garda are stationed a long distance from their homes and work outside the hours of public transport so cars are required.

I disagree that they are breaking the law. There is an exemption in the road traffic acts for gardai using cars in the course of their duty. Courts have previously ruled that travelling to and from work is considered being in the course of their duty so it's reasonable to assume that this would extend to the parking issue.

I especially disagree with your assertion that they do this "happily". I'm sure each and every one of them would prefer a proper and safer spot.

audidiesel

my locker is one and a half feet from a urinal. theres about 20 lockers in the toilets of my station. - im pretty certain thats a health and safety violation.

regularily would only get 7 hours off between working shifts.thats a clear violation of the european working time directive

these are two examples of how the state is regularily negligent towards me in work.

but heres my point. gardai are excempt from health and safety legislation aswell as the working time directive. just as when on duty gardai are exempt from the parking restrictions.

if the state doesnt lead by example and provide adaquate services then why should i be held to a higher standard than the government itself?

stacexD

I still think the garda parking outside the station in sligo is the worst!

Iwannahurl

rivervarrig wrote: »

yes read the article....will she go in to as much detail and make a whole article out of the good side to AGS like she did with her pen and piece of paper taking down car number plate after number plate?

Maybe she will, maybe she won't.

In the meantime, there's the substance of her article which is the focus of the OP.

Her assiduous work with pen, paper and reg numbers is a reflection of the frustration some people feel at the behaviour of AGS members in this regard, and at the poor impression it gives.

rivervarrig wrote: »

and the same people critcising the manner of parking of vehicles here will be the same people giving out that those garda patrol cars look a disgrace why dont they clean them, why dont they park them somewhere that birds cant fly.

audidiesel wrote: »

my locker is one and a half feet from a urinal. theres about 20 lockers in the toilets of my station. - im pretty certain thats a health and safety violation.

regularily would only get 7 hours off between working shifts.thats a clear violation of the european working time directive

these are two examples of how the state is regularily negligent towards me in work.

but heres my point. gardai are excempt from health and safety legislation aswell as the working time directive. just as when on duty gardai are exempt from the parking restrictions.

if the state doesnt lead by example and provide adaquate services then why should i be held to a higher standard than the government itself?

All facets of a ramshackle "banana republic" perhaps? Maybe AMH was right after all? If the police force of a country doesn't lead by example then why should its citizens be held to a higher standard, and why would those citizens feel motivated to have a sense of order and civic responsibility?



My question about bird droppings was in relation to this post:

rivervarrig wrote: »

In our local Garda Station, its a divisional headquarters, cars cannot be parked in the 10 spaces to the rear of the station because bird droppings from the 100 or more crows on the communications mast rain down on the patrol cars, then those guards get a call, hardly looks professional rolling up in a bird sh!t splattered patrol car, so they have to park them out at the front on the narrow street.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I take this to mean that a senior Garda officer rings up to complain about Garda vehicles being spattered with bird droppings, and then those vehicles have to be moved in order to keep things looking professional.

If that is the case, I'm simply wondering why those same senior officers are not equally concerned about Garda vehicles, and Garda-owned private cars, being obnoxiously/illegally parked, including on footpaths and other pedestrian facilities. Why is that not similarly regarded as unprofessional (other than by the Garda Inspectorate)?

Iwannahurl

MagicSean wrote: »

Garda are stationed a long distance from their homes and work outside the hours of public transport so cars are required.

I disagree that they are breaking the law. There is an exemption in the road traffic acts for gardai using cars in the course of their duty. Courts have previously ruled that travelling to and from work is considered being in the course of their duty so it's reasonable to assume that this would extend to the parking issue.

I especially disagree with your assertion that they do this "happily". I'm sure each and every one of them would prefer a proper and safer spot.

Here is a quote from the Garda Inspectorate's report on traffic policing and related matters (Roads Policing Review and Recommendations, page 19):

Police officers operating Garda vehicles must provide a positive example for other road users and management should develop policies to ensure such is the case. In non-emergency situations, police officers should fully comply with the rules of the road in the operation of vehicles, observing speed limits, traffic signals and refraining from the use of mobile phones while driving.

The Inspectorate has also stated that the same principles should apply to parking.

MagicSean

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Here is a quote from the Garda Inspectorate's report on traffic policing and related matters (Roads Policing Review and Recommendations, page 19):

Police officers operating Garda vehicles must provide a positive example for other road users and management should develop policies to ensure such is the case. In non-emergency situations, police officers should fully comply with the rules of the road in the operation of vehicles, observing speed limits, traffic signals and refraining from the use of mobile phones while driving.

The Inspectorate has also stated that the same principles should apply to parking.

Right. Very good. What's your point though? The Garda inspectorate has made many recommendations that haven't been implimented yet. I don't see how that quote is really relevant to what I've posted anyway. I've already said it shouldn't continue and management should make proper arrangements for staff.

markpb

MagicSean wrote: »

There is an exemption in the road traffic acts for gardai using cars in the course of their duty.

I'm not sure that's true. RTA 1961 exempts Gardai from Part 6 (Speeding) and Part 3-38 (Driving Licenses) but I can't find any other act or section which does the same. I could easily be missing something though.

Iwannahurl

Iwannahurl wrote: »

How are the perpetrators able to identify the Garda-owned private cars?

How did the author? A well known criminal in my district was seen on a road near my station taking down reg numbers.

markpb wrote: »

That's not true either. Gardai are exempt from the RTA while in the course of their duties[/url]. Their private cars are not in the course of their duties. The patrol car parked on a corner, on a cycle lane and forcing traffic to stop and wait because they couldn't get round the corner from Damt St to Georges St while the Gardai went for dinner in Ricks was most definitely not in course of their duties.

How do you know they were getting food and not taking details of a crime?

Victor wrote: »

I'm sorry, is that a plea to leave the €4,000 a year Garda parking scam and the €4,000 a year Garda rent allowance scam alone?
I thought that basic numeracy was needed to join the Garda.

We're not talking about patrol cars, so stop changing the subject.
Often they do.

On the rent allowance, €4000 won't rent you a place in Dublin for a year or pay a mortgage.

The journalist does refer to patrol cars at Harcourt Street and the courts.

markpb

foreign wrote: »

How do you know they were getting food and not taking details of a crime?

I was in Ricks eating at the time

On the rent allowance, €4000 won't rent you a place in Dublin for a year or pay a mortgage.

Not really the point - the allowance AFAIK is to offset the cost of making them live close to work (i.e. they may lose the flexibility to choose somewhere cheaper). It's not intended to pay the full cost of rent or mortgage.

markpb

markpb wrote: »

I'm not sure that's true. RTA 1961 exempts Gardai from Part 6 (Speeding) and Part 3-38 (Driving Licenses) but I can't find any other act or section which does the same. I could easily be missing something though.

87.— (1) Requirements under the Road Traffic Acts 1961 to 2010 relating to vehicles and requirements, restrictions and prohibitions relating to the driving and use of vehicles, other than those provided under sections 49, 50, 51A, 52 and 53 of the Principal Act, sections 12, 13 and 15 of the Act of 1994 and sections 4 , 5 , 12 and 14 of this Act, do not apply to—

(a) the driving or use by a member of the Garda Síochána, an ambulance service or a fire brigade of a fire authority (within the meaning of the Fire Services Act 1981 ) of a vehicle in the performance of the duties of that member, or

(b) a person driving or using a vehicle under the direction of a member of the Garda Síochána,

where such use does not endanger the safety of road users.

(2) Section 27 of the Act of 2004 is repealed.

Link

markpb

markpb wrote: »

I was in Ricks eating at the time

[qoute]On the rent allowance, €4000 won't rent you a place in Dublin for a year or pay a mortgage.

Not really the point - the allowance AFAIK is to offset the cost of making them live close to work (i.e. they may lose the flexibility to choose somewhere cheaper). It's not intended to pay the full cost of rent or mortgage.[/QUOTE]

Re Ricks, that just sounds like a stupid driver then. No need to park that close to that corner.

I think Victor was making that point though. I think it has no relevance to the thread but it's been brought up a couple of times now.

Goonerdee

MagicSean wrote: »

Sorry. Found a different one.



I'm just addressing some of the issues raised. I dont think it's a situation that should continue but I think it's for management to introduce a solution. The likes of Pearse street station are no longer suitable for the amount of staff in them. There needs to be some capital expenditure on new stations with proper facilities. Underground parking could be the way to go.

A by-product of the violence here in NI is that all stations, old and new have ample parking in the police station grounds as to park outside was signing your own death certificate.

Unfortunately large sites require more money to maintain. Therefore villages and small towns which used to have police stations no longer do so.

It's a lose lose situation.

Rowley Birkin QC

MagicSean wrote: »

Garda are stationed a long distance from their homes and work outside the hours of public transport so cars are required.

A lot of people work far from their homes and outside hours of public transport yet they manage fine without operating under the presumption that they are exempt from sections of the law so I don't think that's a valid excuse to be perfectly honest.

MagicSean wrote: »

I disagree that they are breaking the law. There is an exemption in the road traffic acts for gardai using cars in the course of their duty. Courts have previously ruled that travelling to and from work is considered being in the course of their duty so it's reasonable to assume that this would extend to the parking issue.

Despite my username I'm no legal eagle so can't offer an argument against this and will have to defer to your argument for now.

However, I would presume if it is as you assert above then parking on a footpath in order to be as close as possible to the station is not really in keeping with the spirit of the law, is that a fair point?

MagicSean wrote: »

I especially disagree with your assertion that they do this "happily". I'm sure each and every one of them would prefer a proper and safer spot.

I'm not being facetious here but it would appear that yes they are indeed happy to park there as clearly they continue to do so rather than seeking out alternative spaces in the same as everyone else.

audidiesel wrote: »

my locker is one and a half feet from a urinal. theres about 20 lockers in the toilets of my station. - im pretty certain thats a health and safety violation.

regularily would only get 7 hours off between working shifts.thats a clear violation of the european working time directive

these are two examples of how the state is regularily negligent towards me in work.

but heres my point. gardai are excempt from health and safety legislation aswell as the working time directive. just as when on duty gardai are exempt from the parking restrictions.

I would again state that I can't offer any argument on the legal side of it as I'm not versed in the legislation. However, as above, I would argue that it is not in keeping with the spirit and intention of the law.

audidiesel wrote: »

if the state doesnt lead by example and provide adaquate services then why should i be held to a higher standard than the government itself?

On your second point; do you curse/smoke in front of your kids or your friends kids? I'm going to pre-empt your answer and say no you don't.

It's the same principle; You have authority over those in your care but you don't set a bad a example as you know it will be followed.

Zambia

Goonerdee wrote: »

A by-product of the violence here in NI is that all stations, old and new have ample parking in the police station grounds as to park outside was signing your own death certificate.

Unfortunately large sites require more money to maintain. Therefore villages and small towns which used to have police stations no longer do so.

It's a lose lose situation.

Nooo...;)

markpb

Rowley Birkin QC wrote: »

I'm not being facetious here but it would appear that yes they are indeed happy to park there as clearly they continue to do so rather than seeking out alternative spaces in the same as everyone else.

For me, this is what it boils down to. The two worst stations in the city (Harcourt and Store St) are right beside large car parks which both (IIRC) offer overnight parking and access. Rather than pay for parking (because the state doesn't provide adequate parking), they abuse the law and park illegally.

Thousands of people pay for parking every day. DCC (and the other Dublin LAs) makes a mint from on-street parking. Lots of companies (including large multi-nationals) rent parking from the building owner and charge it to their employees. Why the double standards for Gardai?

Goonerdee

Zambia wrote: »

Nooo...;)

As you can see the modern station looks like a ferry or airport terminal rather than a battle scarred fortress.

markpb

markpb wrote: »

For me, this is what it boils down to. The two worst stations in the city (Harcourt and Store St) are right beside large car parks which both (IIRC) offer overnight parking and access. Rather than pay for parking (because the state doesn't provide adequate parking), they abuse the law and park illegally.

Thousands of people pay for parking every day. DCC (and the other Dublin LAs) makes a mint from on-street parking. Lots of companies (including large multi-nationals) rent parking from the building owner and charge it to their employees. Why the double standards for Gardai?

i don't think either station is beside a 24hr car park. I also doubt staff in any station would mind paying towards secure parking at their station.

markpb

foreign wrote: »

i don't think either station is beside a 24hr car park.

RCSI and SSG-SC are both open 24 hours a day and are a 6-7 minute walk from Harcourt St Garda station. I can't remember if Apollo is open overnight or not but Clearys is close to Store St and is also open 24 hours a day. DIT have organised discounts for their students in Clearys so there should be nothing stopping the Gardai/GRA doing the same for members in Store St.

But this is pointless because it's easier to park wherever you like.

I also doubt staff in any station would mind paying towards secure parking at their station.

Really? They'd be okay paying for the land acquisition costs, construction work, security infrastructure and maintenance. I think that would cost more than you'd imagine.

markpb

markpb wrote: »

RCSI and SSG-SC are both open 24 hours a day and are a 6-7 minute walk from Harcourt St Garda station. I can't remember if Apollo is open overnight or not but Clearys is close to Store St and is also open 24 hours a day. DIT have organised discounts for their students in Clearys so there should be nothing stopping the Gardai/GRA doing the same for members in Store St.

But this is pointless because it's easier to park wherever you like.



Really? They'd be okay paying for the land acquisition costs, construction work, security infrastructure and maintenance. I think that would cost more than you'd imagine.

First point, Harcourt Street is not a Garda Station. It is a HQ and is the base for most of the National Support Units. They cannot be carrying their gear between those car parks and the HQ. In my opinion that building is not suitable for what it is used for. And plenty of the normal working day staff would use public transport and local car parks.

On the second point of land acquisition, it's not really an option is it? Again it comes back to the suitability of the stations. Store St was redeveloped and should have had a suitable carpark built but didn't. Most other stations hark back to the days when members had to live in their station so were never built with parking in mind.

markpb

foreign wrote: »

First point, Harcourt Street is not a Garda Station. It is a HQ and is the base for most of the National Support Units. They cannot be carrying their gear between those car parks and the HQ

Why would they be carrying anything to their private cars? And why would they build a car park at Store St when it's well served by public transport and local parking facilities? Underground car parks are incredibly expensive to build and maintain - parking isn't free.

markpb

markpb wrote: »

Why would they be carrying anything to their private cars? And why would they build a car park at Store St when it's well served by public transport and local parking facilities? Underground car parks are incredibly expensive to build and maintain - parking isn't free.

Personally I carry my stab vest, utility belt, large bag with my fleece, patrol jacket, light and heavy Hi-viz, waterproof trousers, hat, torch and other items. Some days i'll also have my grub with me and possibly my laptop.

I did say that most members would probably have no objection to paying for secure parking in their place of work so going on about cost is a non argument.

markpb

foreign wrote: »

Personally I carry my stab vest, utility belt, large bag with my fleece, patrol jacket, light and heavy Hi-viz, waterproof trousers, hat, torch and other items. Some days i'll also have my grub with me and possibly my laptop.

Fair enough

I did say that most members would probably have no objection to paying for secure parking in their place of work so going on about cost is a non argument.

My problem is that I don't think most people realise how expensive it is to provide and maintain underground or multi-story parking. People might be willing to pay for it but not if they knew full cost of providing it. In any case, if parking is provided nearby, why duplicate it?

Out of curiosity (and not related to the thread) why do you need to carry all that stuff? Are you regularly assigned to different stations in the same week?