Gardai not leading by example on parking, says Irish Times journalist

BrianD

J K wrote: »

It's not a technicality that one should never step out on to a road unless the way is clear.

Especially when a driver without a licence is "bombing down" the road (as per the inquest).

And sometimes people why law abiding citizens, like myself, think the Garda are a joke?

MagicSean

BrianD wrote: »

There is no requirement for the Garda management or the Government to provide staff car parking facilities. None at all! It would be entirely unreasonable to think that they should!! The only car parking spaces should be for official vehicles, perhaps visitors/deliveries and then whatever else should be on whatever system the station thinks is appropriate - perhaps senior members, first come first served or whatever suits.

What's unreasonable is to assign a massive amount of Gardaí to a station with no parking facilities. And why exactly would you prioritise senior gardaí and visitors?

BrianD wrote: »

Linky please...only link I find is to the Indo article.

The only thing of note here is something that we knew all along. Many Gardai drive without licences or training under "chiefs permission".

It would seem bizarre that we would have a system that would not require a Garda driving a car not to have a licence.

Post 79.

And members on chiefs permission do have licences.

Do yourself a favour and stop posting. You're making a fool of yourself.

bluetop

I wonder would you be the same if your house was been burgled, and you called the Garda and they apprehended the people and you got all your goods back, i really love this garda are a joke, yet they are out there day after day night after night risking their lives while you are tucked up in bed, and you have the audacity to call them a joke.

Who would be the first person you would go up to if you got a thumping in the city center, would it be the juggler in the street or the person acting the maggot or a garda , simple answer is it not, i doubt you think they are a joke then.

people always think they are a joke till they need them, then they are crying down the phone looking for help and assistance.

jonsnow

I would be very surprised if a once off coroners court decision (which was a textbook example of hard cases make bad law) would have any sort of binding precedent.The coroner can make legal findings but it might be a doctor so I doubt that the findings ever have much legal weight outside the narrow facts of each individual case.I certainly wouldn,t have too much confidence in it as a basis for arguing that gardai driving to work are exempt from the rules of the road.

Even if it did there is no way in my opinion that the decision would stretch so far as to allow any gardai driving to work to park where they like and ignore the rules of the road in relation to that issue.Seanbeags claim for stating it was the law that gardai driving to work was some case he half remembered from the papers from a few years ago and it is only his opinion that this would stretch to parking.I would respectfully disagree and argue that it does not.We don,t have the judgement outlining the reasoning in the coroners case - and therefore we don,t really know what the law is in relation to the parking issue.

MagicSean

jonsnow wrote: »

I would be very surprised if a once off coroners court decision (which was a textbook example of hard cases make bad law) would have any sort of binding precedent.The coroner can make legal findings but it might be a doctor so I doubt that the findings ever have much legal weight outside the narrow facts of each individual case.I certainly wouldn,t have too much confidence in it as a basis for arguing that gardai driving to work are exempt from the rules of the road.

Even if it did there is no way in my opinion that the decision would stretch so far as to allow any gardai driving to work to park where they like and ignore the rules of the road in relation to that issue.Seanbeags claim for stating it was the law that gardai driving to work was some case he half remembered from the papers from a few years ago and it is only his opinion that this would stretch to parking.I would respectfully disagree and argue that it does not.We don,t have the judgement outlining the reasoning in the coroners case - and therefore we don,t really know what the law is in relation to the parking issue.

It was obviously a view shared by GSOC and the DPP.

jonsnow

MagicSean wrote: »

It was obviously a view shared by GSOC and the DPP.

Since when do the DPP and GSOC set legal precedent.We dont know why they didn,t pursue any action as the DPP don,t give any reasons.

MagicSean

jonsnow wrote: »

Since when do the DPP and GSOC set legal precedent.We dont know why they didn,t pursue any action as the DPP don,t give any reasons.

I would think the Garda was prosecuted for Dangerous Driving at least. Unfortunately that wouldn't make the papers so it's impossible to say.

And you don't need legal precedent if there is nobody that believes a crime was committed in the first place.

Iwannahurl

bluetop wrote: »

Lads all you are doing is fueling the fire, clearly this person is on a power trip, or has ulterior motives for putting these photos up, i would urge you all to stop feeding this guy, as all it doing is going around in circles, and to me they are getting great satisfaction in winding everyone up, let the thread die and so will his rant.

Classic Boards denial script. Claims of ulterior motives and agendas, accusations of trolling, no attempt at addressing the substantive issue. No surprises there.

Thepredator wrote: »

Mountain out of a molehill if you ask me. The arguement that normal members of the public will park illegally just because the guards do, doesnt wash with me. Some people have too much time on their hands.

I didn't ask you, but I knew you were going to say that.

It doesn't surprise me in the least that you think it's a trivial issue. It's precisely because AGS thinks it's trivial, and that parking on footpaths in particular is not only of no consequence but may actually be a good idea, that there is such widespread non-enforcement and non-compliance.

I'm well aware of Garda apathy and inaction in this regard. Not only that, but I have discovered that Garda officers will aggressively defend their inaction when challenged.

I'm also well aware of AGS's total lack of comprehension regarding the effect their apathy and inaction has on motorists' level of compliance with parking regulations and lack of consideration for pedestrians and disabled people.

And of course the glib "too much time on their hands" jibe is the classic lazy Boards attempt at a put-down. All part of the apathy, denial and lack of interest in professionalism and accountability.

Anne Marie Hourihane's observations regarding impressions of a banana republic are well made, IMO.

MagicSean

Maybe you and her could write a piece together.

Iwannahurl

doopa wrote: »

Surely the Gardai management are aware of the issue. The problem seems to be that is no provision for them to park which is an issue for the government agency that built them a workplace without enough parking spaces. Pearse street in particular, its embarrassing.

Are the gardai officers replying in this thread happy to be parking out on the street or would they prefer to keep the situation as is? Surely if your cars are getting vandalised so often (as suggested by a previous poster) then you would agree that this is a problem that should be resolved and not simply maintain the status quo.

A complete red herring, IMO. Just one of a litany of excuses, with "the law doesn't apply to me" at the top, of course.

In my neck of the woods the AGS trick for getting away with obnoxious parking (including the obstruction of a school fire exit while the children were still inside) is to openly display a diary or other item carrying the Garda emblem.

Clearly there is an attempt being made to have it both ways: we absolutely have to park where we please because our cars might be identified and vandalised, and in order to park as we please we need to make sure those Traffic Wardens know we're Garda officers.

Iwannahurl

BrianD wrote: »

It would seem bizarre that we would have a system that would not require a Garda driving a car not to have a licence.

Not bizarre in a banana republic, as per the newspaper article cited in the OP.

Iwannahurl

bluetop wrote: »

I wonder would you be the same if your house was been burgled, and you called the Garda and they apprehended the people and you got all your goods back, i really love this garda are a joke, yet they are out there day after day night after night risking their lives while you are tucked up in bed, and you have the audacity to call them a joke.

Who would be the first person you would go up to if you got a thumping in the city center, would it be the juggler in the street or the person acting the maggot or a garda , simple answer is it not, i doubt you think they are a joke then.

people always think they are a joke till they need them, then they are crying down the phone looking for help and assistance.

I call the people who are paid from the public purse to do their job.

I expect them to do their job, to be professional and to uphold the law.

I've worked with AGS members and they were all of the above and more -- words like compassionate, committed and community-oriented spring to mind.

OTOH I've encountered others who were unmannerly, truculent, lazy, slovenly, careless, unprofessional and unhelpful. Some were even downright thuggish.

Zambia

Could somebody please post the law in relation to the requirement to hold a licence while driving there should be an exemption listed for ES workers.

I find it hard to believe there is.

MagicSean

Zambia wrote: »

Could somebody please post the law in relation to the requirement to hold a licence while driving there should be an exemption listed for ES workers.

I find it hard to believe there is.

Post #79

Eru

Victor wrote: »

I'm sorry, is that a plea to leave the €4,000 a year Garda parking scam and the €4,000 a year Garda rent allowance scam alone

Why is the rent allowance a scam? Gardai cant work in their home area and therefore INSTEAD OF A PAY RISE they got an allowance for rent a number of years ago. I have no idea what your talking about 4000 for parking though.

Victor wrote: »

But surely parking them outside a Garda station just makes it easy for them? That and the out of date tax/insurance/NCT disks and the strategically-placed Garda paraphernalia left to make sure that they don't get tickets / clamped.

Evidence or just blind dislike for Gardai?

Victor wrote: »

Can be? By who? Do those hours go on your time sheet?

Yes, sometimes it does because Gardai sometimes get sent to other stations or have their tours of duty changed. If Im supposed to start at 2pm but then get sent to Wicklow I rightly get paid to travel. It also applies if I get told 2 hours before my shift starts or get called to court for example.

If you dont get paid overtime or for when your travelling for work then speak with your boss instead of begrudging others. I dont have the right to strike or join a union but you dont see me trying to have your rights removed do you?

coolhandluke

Sometimes throwing peanuts at the monkeys, just isn't worth it........

audidiesel

Zambia wrote: »

Could somebody please post the law in relation to the requirement to hold a licence while driving there should be an exemption listed for ES workers.

I find it hard to believe there is.

Road Traffic Act, 1961 as amended

Section 38 States:

38.—(1) A person shall not drive a mechanically propelled vehicle in a public place unless he holds a driving licence for the time being having effect and licensing him to drive the vehicle.

(6) Subsections (1) to (5) of this section shall not apply in relation to a member of the Garda Síochána driving a mechanically propelled vehicle in the course of his duty.

audidiesel

BrianD wrote: »

Linky please...only link I find is to the Indo article.

The only thing of note here is something that we knew all along. Many Gardai drive without licences or training under "chiefs permission".

It would seem bizarre that we would have a system that would not require a Garda driving a car not to have a licence.

You take one example and then seek to turn it into "Many". thats just being lazy with your generalisations.

Even if they dont have the car course done, every guard driving a patrol car has to have a valid full driving licence to get chiefs permission.

the law covers guards with the state licence. the fact that he was on duty allows him drive under that state licence. if he wasnt on duty then then he should have been prosecuted.

anyways i can see logic isnt really gonna work with this argument. whether ye like it or not, the fact remains that under law Gardai are exempt from the RTA when on duty.

maggy_thatcher

I can see the justification for the Gardaí to be exempt from certain road traffic acts (e.g. speeding, bus lanes, etc.) while on duty (though personally if I'd written the law I would make it a requirement that the blue lights must be on at all times that the laws are being 'bypassed' - which would also protect against long-term dodgy parking, as the battery would go flat!), but what's the justification for the no licence allowance? A person with no licence means that they've not been judged safe to drive on our roads, and is therefore potentially a danger to the rest of us. I can only think of a couple of very exceptional circumstances where this could possibly be permitted...

MagicSean

maggy_thatcher wrote: »

I can see the justification for the Gardaí to be exempt from certain road traffic acts (e.g. speeding, bus lanes, etc.) while on duty (though personally if I'd written the law I would make it a requirement that the blue lights must be on at all times that the laws are being 'bypassed' - which would also protect against long-term dodgy parking, as the battery would go flat!), but what's the justification for the no licence allowance? A person with no licence means that they've not been judged safe to drive on our roads, and is therefore potentially a danger to the rest of us. I can only think of a couple of very exceptional circumstances where this could possibly be permitted...

It's in case of emergency.

maggy_thatcher

MagicSean wrote: »

It's in case of emergency.

Right - but what kind of emergency would require a Garda member to drive a vehicle that they aren't deemed capable of driving that couldn't also happen to any other person on the street? It seems daft that the exemption isn't written in such a way as to say that this is only valid in emergencies.

MagicSean

maggy_thatcher wrote: »

Right - but what kind of emergency would require a Garda member to drive a vehicle that they aren't deemed capable of driving that couldn't also happen to any other person on the street? It seems daft that the exemption isn't written in such a way as to say that this is only valid in emergencies.

Internal policies make up for the gap in the legislation.

maggy_thatcher

MagicSean wrote: »

Internal policies make up for the gap in the legislation.

Not really. If it's an internal policy, the worst that can happen is you get fired for doing stupid things. If it was legislative, you could be imprisoned, fined, etc.

You still haven't come up with a valid reason it's even there, that wouldn't also apply to anybody else in the country.

BrianD

audidiesel wrote: »

You take one example and then seek to turn it into "Many". thats just being lazy with your generalisations.

Even if they dont have the car course done, every guard driving a patrol car has to have a valid full driving licence to get chiefs permission.

the law covers guards with the state licence. the fact that he was on duty allows him drive under that state licence. if he wasnt on duty then then he should have been prosecuted.

anyways i can see logic isnt really gonna work with this argument. whether ye like it or not, the fact remains that under law Gardai are exempt from the RTA when on duty.

And I'm justified. 2,600 Gardai were driving on Chiefs permissions in 2008. That must be a good 15-20% of the force. It's a sufficient enough to be a key item that the Garda authorities are trying to eliminate it. It comes up in recommendations in 2009.

In any case, driving to your work could hardly be classed as in the line of duty so it's just an abuse of the law and in your own words, lazy.

We really need a shake up of the attitudes in the force.

BrianD

MagicSean wrote: »

And members on chiefs permission do have licences.

Do yourself a favour and stop posting. You're making a fool of yourself.

Really? you have yet to demonstrate where the law states that a Garda may park his private car on a pavement or on a public street or in a bay marked Official Garda vehicles only. Clearly there is nothing to support this breach of the law.

Only the sloppy Gardai would do this. And as a member of the public and a taxpayer I continue to see this sloppy behaviour every day. You need to look no further then the members propped up against the GPO texting their mates.

It's annoying - get your act together and behave professionally. Illegal parking is not professional.

audidiesel

BrianD wrote: »

And I'm justified. 2,600 Gardai were driving on Chiefs permissions in 2008. That must be a good 15-20% of the force. It's a sufficient enough to be a key item that the Garda authorities are trying to eliminate it. It comes up in recommendations in 2009.

When you say many gardai drive without licenses, I'm afraid your a very long way from being justified.

The only thing I'd agree with you on is there's a need for more car courses. More training is always good. But it's a budgetary thing that they aren't given to everyone

Zambia

The only thing this whole article will achieve if anything is that Gardai in those stations may be forced to find alternate parking. I don't see who benefits.

From a management perspective this could bee seen to be an issue several years ago. Like all good irish State bodies they decided the status quo was grand and sure let the underlings fight it out among themselves.

I am pretty sure all those illegally parked cars are rank and file officers. If cheap affordable alternative parking was available close to the station I reckon they would take it.

Dublin is full of some pretty bad people if we depend on the garda to deal with those people in the stern and harsh manner they often need to be dealt with in. I don't think its to much to ask that they be allowed exit the city at the end of shift without sitting next to them on the bus. Proximity to the station allows them at least a place to run back to should they be attacked. City centre criminals take pure delight in knowing your personal details and recounting them to you. I have seen this first hand.

People often accuse Gardai of being insular, articles like this only feed that idea that the public as well as the criminals are out to get them.

In response to this article a letter should be sent to the OIC of the stations involved. Not demanding that officers park miles away but asking him/her what steps they are considering to provide safe secure parking for officers assigned to the station. In the end a member will be hurt on the way to their vehicle by an offender and they will end up being sued.

cursai

There are NO Gardai driving official patrol cars without licences. To make a statement otherwise is hilarious. This thread is hilarious.
People don't know how good they have it with police force in this country. And how much crap members have to put up with without complaining.
Begrudging them parking outside their stations after in some cases driving an hour from their families after 4 or 5 hours sleep. And that's before the kids cry all night.
Patrol cars parked on footpaths. If they had spaces to park I'm sure they'd use then.
Whoever stuck up those photos needs to get a life and grow up. Creepy.

Our man in Havana

I have just sent Anne Marie Hourihane an email pointing her here so she can see how well her article went down.

markpb

Zambia wrote: »

The only thing this whole article will achieve if anything is that Gardai in those stations may be forced to find alternate parking. I don't see who benefits.

Two things would happen
- people wouldn't see the Gardai publicly flaunting the law (on a technicality or otherwise)
- private cars belonging to the Gardai wouldn't be parked in a way that blocks footpaths, cycle lanes or (in the case of Harcourt St) forces taxis picking up passengers to obstruct the Luas line.

Like all good irish State bodies they decided the status quo was grand and sure let the underlings fight it out among themselves.

There's no obligation on employers to make parking available at offices. I know Gardai work shifts when public transport isn't available but so do tens of thousands of other people and it doesn't give them leeway to ignore the law.

I am pretty sure all those illegally parked cars are rank and file officers. If cheap affordable alternative parking was available close to the station I reckon they would take it.

I've already pointed out that Harcourt St and Store St both have 24 hour access public parking 5 minutes walk away and that at least one of them has negotiated discounts for nearby employers. Why haven't Gardai done the same - because it's easier to dump your car on the footpath. Foreign pointed out that he sometimes carries a lot of equipment home between shifts which is fair enough for some staff but not all.

I don't think its to much to ask that they be allowed exit the city at the end of shift without sitting next to them on the bus. Proximity to the station allows them at least a place to run back to should they be attacked.

Seriously? WTF.