Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 11/12-Jan 2012 onwards

Leiva

Jayob10 wrote: »

But you basing your judgement on wishful thinking, rather than evidence thus far. Don't get me wrong, i've great hopes for Henderson but its by no means a sure thing that he will justify his price tag.

I might also add that not every expensive "ballsy" young signing turns out to be a world beater ala Torres. The club has wasted millions on such signings like Cisse, Diouf being prime examples.

Shaquiri going to Bayern for £10million took the biscuit for me when you compare it to our expensive english signings .

Kess73

rarnes1 wrote: »

I can't disagree with that. I don't think anyone can tbh.

And to date is all I am talking about because that is all we have to go on.

As I said in 12 months time one or all of those players may be getting called great value for money based on their performances to that particular point in time.

Kess73

mixednuts wrote: »

Shaquiri going to Bayern for £10million took the biscuit for me when you compare it to our expensive english signings .

He did not even cost that much, he went for a fee a little under €10m.

He would be a prime example of young potential that is worth a decent fee but who would be at a level where the risk of putting him in the first team and expecting decent performances can be taken.

Granted Bayern are a better team than Liverpool are at present and will have the carrot of CL football, but there are only so many clubs that can offer CL football and only some of them will be after some of the quality young players. There will always be a certain amount of quality young players who will gamble on joining a team that they think has a good chance of becoming a CL team simply because the CL teams cannot snap up every quality player.

Kess73

Mr Alan wrote: »

I think Henderson has been a decent buy for us so far.

In relation to how much he cost and the performances he put in, you think that he has been a decent buy so far?


Not asking about potential or what might be in two years or whatever down the line, just that you think his performances so far have been decent for a player that cost £16m to £20m.


Adam for me would be a fairly decent buy based on performances and the fee spent. As I see Adam as costing what a squad player would cost and giving pretty much squad player performances to date (some good, some bad)

Jayob10

mixednuts wrote: »

Shaquiri going to Bayern for £10million took the biscuit for me when you compare it to our expensive english signings .

You do have to wonder if we were in the mix for such players and we were turned down? or if its a case we just chose to pursue other home based (and more expensive) targets?

It really makes no sense. The likes of Shaqiri and Defour are prime examples of players with potential to improve our first XI vastly, and also cost alot less.

For a club who hires so many staff in the area of talent spotting and statiticians etc... you would imagine someone could have pointed out how long its been since big money English names hit the ground running and proved successful for Liverpool.

One can only imagine the club is fed up of being stung with top foreign players looking to leave. At a time like this the club can use this to its advantage though and stop being such a soft touch when a player hands in a transfer request.

Demand top dollar when a foreign player wants to leave and don't crumble to their exit demands peddaling the cliche "if they don't want to play for LFC then they can leave". I'd rather hear, "the player has a contract with LFC, and if an offer is too good to refuse then we will look at it".

Chucky the tree

Jayob10 wrote: »

But you basing your judgement on wishful thinking, rather than evidence thus far. Don't get me wrong, i've great hopes for Henderson but its by no means a sure thing that he will justify his price tag.

Personally I agree with the OP's statement that Defour + Toulalan = 16million, is far better business than Henderson for the same amount if not more. In all aspects, current ability, future potential (more so in the case of Defour), versatility, potential resale value, first XI being vastly strengthened aswell as the squad and ability to hit the ground running.

I might also add that not every expensive "ballsy" young signing turns out to be a world beater ala Torres. The club has wasted millions on such signings like Cisse, Diouf being prime examples.

I never said it was a sure thing, no signing is a sure thing. Even the likes of Defour, M'villa, Hazard, Soussikko et all are not sure things. I never said they weren't better buys, however were they available? People have to remember we are team who has no CL, no EL and who are battling it out to finish top 6-7 in the league for the last two years. Are we really a better prospect then Porto who just won a EL, in CL every year and have consistently won Portugesse league?

Kess73 wrote: »

Why not? Are we simply to spend the kind of money that it would take to get that kind of player but on players who are less proven and with less ability despite being the same age?

So going by what you said if we did not spend £16m to £20m on Henderson our only other options would be to spend that money on an older player with less ability or a younger player with less potential? No disrespect meant but that is one of the biggest piles of rubbish I have read on here for some time. If you think that £16m to £20m could not bring a better older player in terms of ability than Henderson to Liverpool or a younger (or as young) with as much or more potential then I really don't know what to say to you.


If Henderson is the best that £16m to £20m can buy for Liverpool in terms of ability at any age, then it is a sad reflection on the club, and how little can be got for that kind of money.

And you add in that you did not think Alonso was a bad buy despite him not being great when he first arrived? Alonso hit the ground running and was a firm favourite very quickly in his first season. It could be argued that Alonso's first season at Liverpool was only beaten by his last. No comparsion at all between Alonso at 22 when he arrived at Liverpool and Henderson at 21 when he arrived. The former went straight into the first team and looked easily as good, if not better, as many of the players that were years older than him.

Yes we are, we won't sign top class players. Why would a top class European player want to come here when we can't offer them CL or even the chance of competing to for a league title? A might Carling cup won't convince top class players very much. So our only choice is to !)fling crazy money at them, which we can't afford either and won't be guranteed to work either, over-spend on young players will potential C) Buy good-solid older players D) Produce your own. Obviously D is ideal but very difficult.

If you think top class European players would sign for Liverpool it's time to take off your red tinted glasses. This year we'll have a chance to win our first trophy in 6 years and it's the mighty Carling cup, top class players won't be falling over themselves to sign up for that.

Jayob10

Chucky the tree wrote: »

I never said it was a sure thing, no signing is a sure thing. Even the likes of Defour, M'villa, Hazard, Soussikko et all are not sure things. I never said they weren't better buys, however were they available? People have to remember we are team who has no CL, no EL and who are battling it out to finish top 6-7 in the league for the last two years. Are we really a better prospect then Porto who just won a EL, in CL every year and have consistently won Portugesse league?




Yes we are, we won't sign top class players. Why would a top class European player want to come here when we can't offer them CL or even the chance of competing to for a league title? A might Carling cup won't convince top class players very much. So our only choice is to !)fling crazy money at them, which we can't afford either and won't be guranteed to work either, over-spend on young players will potential C) Buy good-solid older players D) Produce your own. Obviously D is ideal but very difficult.

If you think top class European players would sign for Liverpool it's time to take off your red tinted glasses. This year we'll have a chance to win our first trophy in 6 years and it's the mighty Carling cup, top class players won't be falling over themselves to sign up for that.

I see no reason to believe why some of the specific players mentioned here (Defour, Shaqiri, Turan) would not want to sign for Liverpool in fairness.

Cavani, Hazard, M'Vila etc.. may be more difficult alright given the probability other clubs being in the mix with more to offer in terms of pay and CL football.

But the aforementioned players still improve us, were available and were attainable i'd imagine. Turan has been quoted on various occasions talking about his admiration for Liverpool for instance.

Chucky the tree

Jayob10 wrote: »

I see no reason to believe why some of the specific players mentioned here (Defour, Shaqiri, Turan) would not want to sign for Liverpool in fairness.

Cavani, Hazard, M'Vila etc.. may be more difficult alright given the probability other clubs with more to offer in terms of pay and CL football.

But the aforementioned players still improve us, were available and were attainable i'd imagine.

Turan is the only one who signed for a team outside of the CL, I've no idea why someone would pick us or Bayern Munich tbh. Even Porto are probably a bigger attraction to a young player.

Jayob10

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Turan is the only one who signed for a team outside of the CL, I've no idea why someone would pick us or Bayern Munich tbh. Even Porto are probably a bigger attraction to a young player.

I can't say I agree with this.

Chucky the tree

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Turan is the only one who signed for a team outside of the CL, I've no idea why someone would pick us or Bayern Munich tbh. Even Porto are probably a bigger attraction to a young player.

Liverpool pay top wages even when not in the CL.

Plus, the draw of playing for a club with Liverpool's history is another big attraction believe it or not

Leiva

Jayob10 wrote: »

You do have to wonder if we were in the mix for such players and we were turned down? or if its a case we just chose to pursue other home based (and more expensive) targets?

It really makes no sense. The likes of Shaqiri and Defour are prime examples of players with potential to improve our first XI vastly, and also cost alot less.

For a club who hires so many staff in the area of talent spotting and statiticians etc... you would imagine someone could have pointed out how long its been since big money English names hit the ground running and proved successful for Liverpool.

One can only imagine the club is fed up of being stung with top foreign players looking to leave. At a time like this the club can use this to its advantage though and stop being such a soft touch when a player hands in a transfer request.

Demand top dollar when a foreign player wants to leave and don't crumble to their exit demands peddaling the cliche "if they don't want to play for LFC then they can leave". I'd rather hear, "the player has a contract with LFC, and if an offer is too good to refuse then we will look at it".

Carroll fee £35 million would have gotten you :
Shaquiri - £10mil
Papiss Cisse - £10 mil

and still £15million to splash .

So using Kess example of putting all the eggs in one basket instead of spreading your bets , its a prime example of our transfer failings when we can see other clubs landing well priced talent.

Im not saying we should have bought those particular players . i am just showing that the club has got it major wrong in terms of value for the majority of players which have joined since the new owners/management.

Kess73

Chucky the tree wrote: »

I never said it was a sure thing, no signing is a sure thing. Even the likes of Defour, M'villa, Hazard, Soussikko et all are not sure things. I never said they weren't better buys, however were they available? People have to remember we are team who has no CL, no EL and who are battling it out to finish top 6-7 in the league for the last two years. Are we really a better prospect then Porto who just won a EL, in CL every year and have consistently won Portugesse league?




Yes we are, we won't sign top class players. Why would a top class European player want to come here when we can't offer them CL or even the chance of competing to for a league title? A might Carling cup won't convince top class players very much. So our only choice is to !)fling crazy money at them, which we can't afford either and won't be guranteed to work either, over-spend on young players will potential C) Buy good-solid older players D) Produce your own. Obviously D is ideal but very difficult.

If you think top class European players would sign for Liverpool it's time to take off your red tinted glasses. This year we'll have a chance to win our first trophy in 6 years and it's the mighty Carling cup, top class players won't be falling over themselves to sign up for that.

You are strawmanning now. That's twice now that you have taken something I said in a post and tried to argue a point back that was different to what I actually said. Show me exactly where I said top class players. The names I mentioned earlier would not be regarded as anywhere near being top class players. Why have you dropped Hazard into the mix? I never mentioned him at all, and was sure to name players who would be regarded as being a level or two below his level of talent/price tag.

Surely you are not calling Moussa Sissoko a Top class European player? Or M'Vila? They are good right now, but not top class. But as for players being available, well Toulouse have said that they would not stand in the way of Sissoko moving to England as long as they got over €12m for him and the player himself namechecked Liverpool as the club in England he would most like to play for, plus it was confirmed by Toulouse that Comolli registered interest in him. But last summer a few clkubs did bid for him, none were Liverpool and the player declared he was not interested in the clubs that had bid for him (Spurs and Juve were meant to be two of them) and stayed at Toulouse.

Also read my post, I never said that you said those players were not better buys, I responded to you saying

You can expect that kind of player all you want, but you aren't getting it. Now the choice is either keep the money in the pocket or buy a older play with less ability or a younger player will less potential

and I even put it in bold so there would be no doubt as to what I was replying to. I responded to you saying that Liverpool would have no choice when it came to spending £16m to £20m if we did not spend it on Henderson as the alternatives for that money, according to you, would be an older player with less ability or a younger player with less potential.


If you want to debate top class player or what not, then I would be happy to oblige you, but stop replying to my posts with replies that suggest I said something totally different to what I did say or even suggest. The below line being a prime example

If you think top class European players would sign for Liverpool it's time to take off your red tinted glasses

Chucky the tree

Kess73 wrote: »

You are strawmanning now. That's twice now that you have taken something I said in a post and tried to argue a point back that was different to what I actually said. Show me exactly where I said top class players. The names I mentioned earlier would not be regarded as anywhere near being top class players. Why have you dropped Hazard into the mix? I never mentioned him at all, and was sure to name players who would be regarded as being a level or two below his level of talent/price tag.

Okay then, good quality players who will most likely receive offers from clubs in the CL will not snub them for Liverpool, is that better?

Kess73 wrote: »

Surely you are not calling Moussa Sissoko a Top class European player? Or M'Vila? They are good right now, but not top class. But as for players being available, well Toulouse have said that they would not stand in the way of Sissoko moving to England as long as they got over €12m for him and the player himself namechecked Liverpool as the club in England he would most like to play for, plus it was confirmed by Toulouse that Comolli registered interest in him. But last summer a few clkubs did bid for him, none were Liverpool and the player declared he was not interested in the clubs that had bid for him (Spurs and Juve were meant to be two of them) and stayed at Toulouse.

They seem to be players who will attract attention from very good clubs, clubs who are in the CL and will consistently challenge for titles. Maybe not top class yet, but they will get far more attractive offers then Liverpool.

Kess73 wrote: »

Also read my post, I never said that you said those players were not better buys, I responded to you saying

and I even put it in bold so there would be no doubt as to what I was replying to. I responded to you saying that Liverpool would have no choice when it came to spending £16m to £20m if we did not spend it on Henderson as the alternatives for that money, according to you, would be an older player with less ability or a younger player with less potential.


If you want to debate top class player or what not, then I would be happy to oblige you, but stop replying to my posts with replies that suggest I said something totally different to what I did say or even suggest. The below line being a prime example

Fair enough. As I said, if you think players(good or world class, it doesn't matter) will snub clubs who are in the CL, challenge regularly for titles and will offer first team football for Liverpool then you need to take off the red tinted glasses.

Nuri Sahin

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Turan is the only one who signed for a team outside of the CL, I've no idea why someone would pick us or Bayern Munich tbh. Even Porto are probably a bigger attraction to a young player.

Jayob10 wrote: »

I can't say I agree with this.

For most players this would not be the case, but for *some* (keyword!) in South America it would be given the steep history of South America's who have joined Porto especially in recent years and how players develop there.

Nuri Sahin

mixednuts wrote: »

Shaquiri going to Bayern for £10million took the biscuit for me when you compare it to our expensive english signings .

I'd be sickened to find out if we didn't at the very least contact Basel regarding Shaqiri availability like a lot of clubs do. Was surprised himself, Sommer and Xhaka didn't move in the summer, 3 of the best talents from Switzerland and all at Basel. Bayern will be great for him though as he will for them. £10M now could very well end up in as £30M in a couple of years time.

Vanolder

We have who we have and for now have to get on with it. Is there any of the youth team who could potentially come along and breathe a bit of life into the team for the run in, or would they even be given a chance?

We stumbled onto a nice formula at the end of last season with some nice pass and move football from Suarez, meireles Kuyt and maxi ... Yet Kenny tore that apart.

But the other feel good factor was the introduction of some youngsters...

We need a spark and I just can't see with the curent first team where we are gonna get it.

Jayob10

El LoCo Ade wrote: »

For most players this would not be the case, but for *some* (keyword!) in South America it would be given the steep history of South America's who have joined Porto especially in recent years and how players develop there.

wholeheartedly agree, Porto is a good place to develop (they make a killing in terms of resale) also I might add, but the OP made a more sweeping statement than the very specific one you made.

Leiva

Who has the best run-in? Let us know your thoughts below.


http://www.thisisanfield.com/2012/02/the-race-for-fourth/

---

In my opinion Chelsea have the toughest run-in .
Our home advantage in the big games is a big plus (i know i know we aint been great) so im saying it now .. If we beat the other contenders for 4th we will take it .

thats provided we have no more "Bolton days"

Kess73

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Okay then, good quality players who will most likely receive offers from clubs in the CL will not snub them for Liverpool, is that better?





They seem to be players who will attract attention from very good clubs, clubs who are in the CL and will consistently challenge for titles. Maybe not top class yet, but they will get far more attractive offers then Liverpool.





Fair enough. As I said, if you think players(good or world class, it doesn't matter) will snub clubs who are in the CL, challenge regularly for titles and will offer first team football for Liverpool then you need to take off the red tinted glasses.

About 40 or so minutes ago in this thread and as part of the general conversation I said the below quote, and it pretty much spells out that I don't expect Liverpool to beat the CL teams to all the quality players, be they established players or up and coming players, but that I do think that there will always be a pool of players that the CL clubs don't get that will be available to try for.

Granted Bayern are a better team than Liverpool are at present and will have the carrot of CL football, but there are only so many clubs that can offer CL football and only some of them will be after some of the quality young players. There will always be a certain amount of quality young players who will gamble on joining a team that they think has a good chance of becoming a CL team simply because the CL teams cannot snap up every quality player

So what the hell are you on about with regards to red tinted glasses and trying to suggest that I think that players will snub CL clubs for Liverpool? I don't know what is up with you today but you are cherry picking what you reply to and pretty much making up what I said when what I actually said is very different.

Kess73

El LoCo Ade wrote: »

I'd be sickened to find out if we didn't at the very least contact Basel regarding Shaqiri availability like a lot of clubs do. Was surprised himself, Sommer and Xhaka didn't move in the summer, 3 of the best talents from Switzerland and all at Basel. Bayern will be great for him though as he will for them. £10M now could very well end up in as £30M in a couple of years time.

You could possibly add Dragovic to that trio. Only 20 and looks so assured and full of ability for one so young, especially a central defender.

whatnext

rarnes1 wrote: »

Liverpool pay top wages even when not in the CL.

Plus, the draw of playing for a club with Liverpool's history is another big attraction believe it or not

I honestly don't think that is the case any more. Most players are more interested in a teams future than their history and a lot are more interested in the money than that too.

Look at some other teams with a great history, Nottingham Forest, Ipswich, Leeds, Aston Villa, Benfica etc...

Nowadays earnings are not just about wages, they are also about sponsorship and endorsements. And to get a piece of this money you really need to be in the CL.

Chucky the tree

El LoCo Ade wrote: »

For most players this would not be the case, but for *some* (keyword!) in South America it would be given the steep history of South America's who have joined Porto especially in recent years and how players develop there.

Jayob10 wrote: »

wholeheartedly agree, Porto is a good place to develop (they make a killing in terms of resale) also I might add, but the OP made a more sweeping statement than the very specific one you made.

Why isn't it a more attractive?

- Play in the CL every year and give yourself to put yourself on the European stage and show off your potential to top European clubs if you play well
- Winning league titles and the chance to win European titles while you do that ^
- signing for a club who've an excellent track record of developing players

I certainly think that's very attractive chance for a young lad. Liverpool have the draw of a better quality league but that's in. In terms of exposure player in the Champions league will work better.

Kess73 wrote: »

About 40 or so minutes ago in this thread and as part of the general conversation I said the below quote, and it pretty much spells out that I don't expect Liverpool to beat the CL teams to all the quality players, be they established players or up and coming players, but that I do think that there will always be a pool of players that the CL clubs don't get that will be available to try for.


So what the hell are you on about with regards to red tinted glasses and trying to suggest that I think that players will snub CL clubs for Liverpool? I don't know what is up with you today but you are cherry picking what you reply to and pretty much making up what I said when what I actually said is very different.

Because 40 minutes ago you said we should have looked at someone who moved to a team who are in the CL.

Jayob10

whatnext wrote: »

I honestly don't think that is the case any more. Most players are more interested in a teams future than their history and a lot are more interested in the money than that too.

Look at some other teams with a great history, Nottingham Forest, Ipswich, Leeds, Aston Villa, Benfica etc...

Nowadays earnings are not just about wages, they are also about sponsorship and endorsements. And to get a piece of this money you really need to be in the CL.

The pay packet you earn at Liverpool isn't all that shoddy either in fairness.

Outside of Real, Barca, City and even Man Utd, we pay big wages.

redzerdrog

I think people are being very harsh on henderson. 16m while it isnt cheap it is hardly the upper end of fees paid. I think he has been good when played centrally he has been misused at times no doubt but for the type of player he could become 16m if defo worth the gamble. I genuinly think he will turn out to be a quality player.

I get that brittish players cost more compared to the continent but I dont think someone with henderson's ability or potential would have went for any cheaper is they were foreign. Look at anderson for example when utd signed him he cost even more than henderson who is better player atm and has more potential imo.

onemorechance

Another Ugly Incident Mars Liverpool’s Good Name

By ROB HUGHES Published: February 11, 2012

A version of this article appeared in print on February 12, 2012, on page SP2 of the New York edition with the headline: Another Ugly Incident Mars Liverpool’s Good Name.

If the Fenway Sports Group is to be the responsible team owner in soccer that it has proved to be in baseball, it needs to get hold of Liverpool, its club in England’s Premier League, and repair its global image fast.

On Saturday, Liverpool lost at Manchester United, 2-1, allowing United to temporarily move into first place in the Premier League. There is no disgrace in such a loss; United, the defending English champion, is vying to keep that title this season, and it very rarely loses at home.

But there was disgrace, witnessed by television viewers around the world, in the refusal of Liverpool’s Luis Suárez to shake the hand of United’s Patrice Evra before kickoff.

The hand might not always be offered with sincerity. It might often be less than the noble sign of pregame respect between opponents that FIFA would like to have us believe it is. But in this case it was important to show a global audience that Suárez and Evra were man enough to touch palms and bury the enmity between them.

This was the first time that Suárez had started a game since he was barred for eight matches for repeatedly calling Evra racist names when they competed against each other last October. Suárez claimed that the words he uttered, as used in his Uruguayan hometown, were not racist but could be affectionate. Evra, who is black and French, but understands Spanish well, said he was deeply offended.

Both players are feisty, provocative, volatile characters, as their records for their clubs, and their national teams, have long shown. Evra led the French team that mutinied against its coach and refused to train during the 2010 World Cup. Suárez was the player who made no apology for deliberately handling the ball that led to Ghana’s elimination from that tournament, and he was purchased by Liverpool after he was suspended in the Dutch league for biting an opponent.

It would seem that each of them would wish to show that, for the sake of their team if not their own reputation, they could abide by the rules and rituals of the game that makes their fortune.

Manchester United Manager Alex Ferguson began the week by publicly asking his players to rise above any bitter feelings they had and display sportsmanship on the field. He said he spoke with Evra on Saturday morning.

“Patrice and I had a chat,” Ferguson said, “and he said: ‘I’m going to shake his hand. I’ve got nothing to be ashamed of. I want to keep my dignity.’ ” When the moment arrived, it was beyond Evra’s grasp.

Suárez shook hands with the referee, and then with the child who was United’s mascot for the day. He then stared at the ground, ignoring the hand extended by Evra and walking toward the next man in line, goalkeeper David de Gea.

Evra grabbed the arm of Suárez, who shrugged him off. De Gea seemed to try to ask Suárez to shake Evra’s hand, and he again refused. The next United player in line, Rio Ferdinand, then withdrew his hand as Suárez passed.

“After seeing what happened, I decided not to shake his hand,” Ferdinand said after the game. “I lost all respect for the guy.”

Ugly repercussions followed. The United crowd booed Suárez, as the Liverpool crowd had booed Evra in its stadium when the teams met in the F.A. Cup two weeks ago.

In the tunnel as the teams headed to halftime Saturday, the teams scuffled after Evra attempted to say something to Suárez. The police and stewards intervened to separate the players.

The Suárez-Evra feud overshadowed the top-class soccer these teams are capable of. United quickly took a 2-0 lead on two goals by the Liverpool-born Wayne Rooney.

The first was from a corner by Ryan Giggs, when Rooney’s sharp anticipation and reflexes led to a short-range volley in a poorly defended penalty area. The second started when Antonio Valencia preyed on an error from Jay Spearing and with split-second vision teed up Rooney, who put a shot between the legs of goalkeeper Pepe Reina.

A late consolation goal by Liverpool, with Suárez reacting like lightning to Ferdinand’s failure to control a deflection, highlighted Suárez’s immense talent. It is that talent that everyone should be talking about, and not racism, especially in a game in which 11 nationalities were represented.

Long after the lights were switched off at Old Trafford, Suárez wrote on Twitter that he was “sad” because of the loss and “disappointed because everything is not that it seems.”

On Sunday, fully 24 hours after the damage was done, Liverpool issued three statements.

The club announced that Suárez was wrong to have misled everyone at Liverpool that he would shake hands with Evra, and that it had been made clear to Suárez that his behavior was not acceptable.

In another statement, Suárez apologized for his actions. ‘‘I have not only let down the manager,’’ his statement read, ‘‘but also the club and what it stands for. I made a mistake and regret what happened.’’

Kenny Dalglish, the Liverpool manager, had claimed he did not see Suárez refuse the handshake, or the shoving in the tunnel at halftime. He had said earlier in the week that Suárez should not have been barred for what he said about Evra, but that he had spoken to Suárez and he knew that Suárez would shake the hand of Evra.

When he was asked on Sky TV after the game why Suárez had not, Dalglish avoided directly answering the question.

“I think you are bang out of order to blame Luis Suárez for whatever happened today,” Dalglish said.

Shortly before that, Evra was whooping to all corners of the stadium. The referee, Phil Dowd, who had managed the game commendably, at that point physically restrained Evra and asked him not to further inflame the players or the supporters.

Ferguson was less charitable. “He is a disgrace to Liverpool Football Club,” he said of Suárez. “That certain player should not be allowed to play for Liverpool again.”

It is time for John Henry and Tom Werner, leaders of the Fenway Group that controls Liverpool, to state clearly the direction the team will take on this issue.

Kerim Okten/European Pressphoto Agency
Liverpool's Luis Suárez, left, refused to shake the hand of United's Patrice Evra, second from right, before Saturday's game.

http://www.nyTIMES.com

Kess73

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Because 40 minutes ago you said we should have looked at someone who moved to a team who are in the CL.

Clutching at straws now. Three times you replied to me and tried to argue points that I had not even said in my posts. I gave you the courtesy of debating/arguing what was actually in your posts, and I highlighted anything in particular I was commenting on. You seem to be unable to return that courtesy so I can't be bothered wasting any more time trying to debate stuff with you when I could be doing so with posters who can argue their point without trying to make up what the other person said. Have a good day.

Jayob10

Kess73 wrote: »

Clutching at straws now. Three times you replied to me and tried to argue points that I had not even said in my posts. I gave you the courtesy of debating/arguing what was actually in your posts, and I highlighted anything in particular I was commenting on. You seem to be unable to return that courtesy so I can't be bothered wasting any more time trying to debate stuff with you when I could be doing so with posters who can argue their point without trying to make up what the other person said. Have a good day.

ah now lads can't we all be friends??

citytillidie

onemorechance wrote: »

Another Ugly Incident Mars Liverpool’s Good Name

By ROB HUGHES Published: February 11, 2012

A version of this article appeared in print on February 12, 2012, on page SP2 of the New York edition with the headline: Another Ugly Incident Mars Liverpool’s Good Name.



http://www.nyTIMES.com

Seeing all these reports from the game and not 1 has said about the linesman having to go onto the pitch to pick up a coin thrown by United fans at Saurez in the 2nd half of the game.

Chucky the tree

Kess73 wrote: »

Clutching at straws now. Three times you replied to me and tried to argue points that I had not even said in my posts. I gave you the courtesy of debating/arguing what was actually in your posts, and I highlighted anything in particular I was commenting on. You seem to be unable to return that courtesy so I can't be bothered wasting any more time trying to debate stuff with you when I could be doing so with posters who can argue their point without trying to make up what the other person said. Have a good day.

You said we should have look at Defour, a guy who signed for a CL team. I can only assume by that you felt he'd snub Porto for us. Apologises for mis-representing on other things, I'll be more clear next time.

onemorechance

citytillidie wrote: »

Seeing all these reports from the game and not 1 has said about the linesman having to go onto the pitch to pick up a coin thrown by United fans at Saurez in the 2nd half of the game.

How many United fans does it take to throw a coin?

More than one apparently! :pac:

RayCon

whatnext wrote: »

I honestly don't think that is the case any more. Most players are more interested in a teams future than their history and a lot are more interested in the money than that too.

Look at some other teams with a great history, Nottingham Forest, Ipswich, Leeds, Aston Villa, Benfica etc...

Nowadays earnings are not just about wages, they are also about sponsorship and endorsements. And to get a piece of this money you really need to be in the CL.

Nail on the head.

Sir Gallagher

citytillidie wrote: »

Seeing all these reports from the game and not 1 has said about the linesman having to go onto the pitch to pick up a coin thrown by United fans at Saurez in the 2nd half of the game.

Hardly a big issue in relation to the main story really.

jesus_thats_gre

whatnext wrote: »

I honestly don't think that is the case any more. Most players are more interested in a teams future than their history and a lot are more interested in the money than that too.

Look at some other teams with a great history, Nottingham Forest, Ipswich, Leeds, Aston Villa, Benfica etc...

Nowadays earnings are not just about wages, they are also about sponsorship and endorsements. And to get a piece of this money you really need to be in the CL.

RayCon wrote: »

Nail on the head.

What factual information are you basing this on?

Sappy404

Sir Gallagher wrote: »

Hardly a big issue in relation to the main story really.

There wasn't a huge deal made of it at Goodison last year either, and that was dozens of objects being thrown. Lamentable as it is, it's not sensational enough to make it into the papers.

Sir Gallagher

whatnext wrote: »

I honestly don't think that is the case any more. Most players are more interested in a teams future than their history and a lot are more interested in the money than that too.

Look at some other teams with a great history, Nottingham Forest, Ipswich, Leeds, Aston Villa, Benfica etc...

Nowadays earnings are not just about wages, they are also about sponsorship and endorsements. And to get a piece of this money you really need to be in the CL.

Lumping Liverpool in with some of those names is silly, very silly.

Blatter

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

What factual information are you basing this on?

The vast majority of top prospects go to clubs that are in the CL? Is that not factual information?

It's a fairly obvious point really. A club's history means little to most players these days, it's all about the money and ability to win things.

Handsome Bob

whatnext wrote: »

I honestly don't think that is the case any more. Most players are more interested in a teams future than their history and a lot are more interested in the money than that too.

Look at some other teams with a great history, Nottingham Forest, Ipswich, Leeds, Aston Villa, Benfica etc...

Nowadays earnings are not just about wages, they are also about sponsorship and endorsements. And to get a piece of this money you really need to be in the CL.

I was agreeing with your point, but then you started to compare Liverpool to Forest, Leeds and Ipswich.

djPSB

Kess73 wrote: »

You said that you thought that Henderson was a good buy. So if you don't think he was a good buy for this season based on how he as played etc, then how can you say he was a good buy seeing as he cost us £16 to £20m? Is he a good buy because he might come good and because he might sometime in the future be value for money? Maybe we have different ideas as to what a good buy is, but for me a good buy is not a high cost player who might be good in a few years, that is gambling that a player will be a good buy.

Henderson for me is not a good or bad buy yet, but he is a bad value for money buy to date, imho, based on what was spent against what he has done on the pitch so far.

If he gets compared to his counterparts in mainland Europe in terms of young players who are highly touted and who are in the 20 to 22 years of age bracket, then he is to be compared with the likes of M'Vila, Moussa Sissoko, Pinto, Canales, Gotze etc., in terms of how much impact he has in his first team compared to what he would cost. I would say that only M'Vila and Gotze would cost as much or more than Henserdon and both are far superior players to him.

In fact since playing on the right wing (despite many on here carguing earlier this season that it is unfair to judge Henderson on how he plays in that role) is a bonus then Gotze at 19 is superior to Henderson on the right, also in CM and as a CAM. Gotze is good enough at 19 to stand out in a title winning team and good enough to be a full international in one of the besty international teams.

M'Vila at 21 is an established first team player with loads of impressive performances to his name and a full French international with a number of impressive performances to his name at that level.

Moussa Sissoko at 22 will be pushing towards 200 first team appearances by the end of this season and has been a starter for most of them. He is also a full French international although his international starts are limited because he plays in the same general position as M'Vila.

They are the kind of players I would have expected for £16m to £20m last summer if that kind of money was going to be spent on a 21 year old. That kind of money for me on a 21 year old should get you a player who is already capable of performing at a decent first team level and who also has the potential to become much better in the futre.

£16m to £20m on a player who might come good and who is not good enough yet to do much in the first team is a hell of a ballsy risk in my eyes, and in no way a good buy to start with.

I think we will get the value out of Henderson over the next few years.

I thinks it unfair to say we should be signing players like Gotze, M'Vila and Sissoko for similar amounts because I don't think any of them players would be interested in LFC. We just cannot compete for that calibre of player at the moment.

If Henderson starts performing consistently for us over the next 6/7 seasons, then we will have got value for our money. It is one of Kenny's transfers that I would be least worried about.

jesus_thats_gre

Blatter wrote: »

The vast majority of top prospects go to clubs that are in the CL? Is that not factual information?

It's a fairly obvious point really. A club's history means little to most players these days, it's all about the money and ability to win things.

I understand that point but what backs up the claim in relation to LFC specifically?

A club's history means little to most players these days, it's all about the money and ability to win things

Money and win things.

So that would mean there'd be very little top players outside the top few teams in every league across Europe and we know that's not true.

I do wonder about some posters and their knowledge of football sometimes.

Chucky the tree

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

I understand that point but what backs up the claim in relation to LFC specifically?

Do you disagree with it? He also said he "doesn't think". Not sure he's saying it a fact, the same with people who'll claim are history is important won't be able to claim it's a fact.

rarnes1 wrote: »

Money and win things.

So that would mean there'd be very little top players outside the top few teams in every league across Europe and we know that's not true.

I do wonder about some posters and their knowledge of football sometimes.

:pac:

Morzadec

On this debate maybe old history doesn't mean much, but we have recent history if being a big European team, so I think that would impact on some players who would remember some of the big European nights we've had.

And that brings me to the next point - the Anfield fans and atmosphere especially on those big European nights. I'm under no illusion that money, success and the high profile of the Champions League will be at the forefront of most players minds, but I still feel that Liverpool are considered a big club with big support by many in Europe and this will make us attractive, especially if we're at the fringes of challenging for Europe.

We're not at the level of Villa, Forest etc... yet I would hope!

firemansam4

whatnext wrote: »

I honestly don't think that is the case any more. Most players are more interested in a teams future than their history and a lot are more interested in the money than that too.

Look at some other teams with a great history, Nottingham Forest, Ipswich, Leeds, Aston Villa, Benfica etc...

Nowadays earnings are not just about wages, they are also about sponsorship and endorsements. And to get a piece of this money you really need to be in the CL.

Is that post meant as a wind up or something :rolleyes:

Liverpool is 1 of 2 of the most successful teams in England none of those teams mentioned comes anywhere near to Liverpools success, history or fan base!

ush

I'd be very careful about seeing our history and current fanbase as some future guarantee.

How long can LFC maintain its current global status, I'm thinking of the ever increasingly important Asian markets, without winning anything of note. And I'm disregarding any potential domestic cup success this season as basically embarrassing. So a few years before we're globally regarded as has-beens, rather than a club with an illustrious history.

I don't think its impossible that a Spurs set-up that buys wisely and maintains CL status could overhaul us long term. City and Chelsea just need to keep buliding on their current levels.

Will I Amnt

rarnes1 wrote: »

A club's history means little to most players these days, it's all about the money and ability to win things

Money and win things.

So that would mean there'd be very little top players outside the top few teams in every league across Europe and we know that's not true.

I do wonder about some posters and their knowledge of football sometimes.

That's a very simplistic view there rarnes.
Of course there's top players at clubs outside the top positions but they were not always at that level,they didn't sign at that level.How often do you see established big names move to these clubs outside the top positions???

I'm pretty sure Blatter was referring to players looking for a move,the very best are going to want money and success.

jesus_thats_gre

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Do you disagree with it? He also said he "doesn't think". Not sure he's saying it a fact, the same with people who'll claim are history is important won't be able to claim it's a fact.

By all account, Liverpool seem to have secured the players that they have gone after in recent months.

I guess that Suarez is the stand out example that counters the argument. Why did he sign for us?

ush

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

By all account, Liverpool seem to have secured the players that they have gone after in recent months.

I guess that Suarez is the stand out example that counters the argument. Why did he sign for us?

What do you mean "secured"? You mean Henderson, Enrique, Adam etc? Or do you mean signings that are coming this summer?

We need alot more players of Suarez quality. And given his temperament its not impossible that other big clubs looked at him and thought he isn't worth it.

jesus_thats_gre

ush wrote: »

I'd be very careful about seeing our history and current fanbase as some future guarantee.

How long can LFC maintain its current global status, I'm thinking of the ever increasingly important Asian markets, without winning anything of note. And I'm disregarding any potential domestic cup success this season as basically embarrassing. So a few years before we're globally regarded as has-beens, rather than a club with an illustrious history.

I don't think its impossible that a Spurs set-up that buys wisely and maintains CL status could overhaul us long term. City and Chelsea just need to keep buliding on their current levels.

It is not a guarantee by any means but it isn't something that burns out after a few seasons.

We haven't won the league in 20 odd years and have only one the European Cup once in that period.

Yet now, all of a sudden, the reputation of the club is not sufficient to sign a top tier player.

It is complete nonsense to be honest. There are maybe a handful of clubs in the world that a player might sign for ahead of us if they had the choice.

jesus_thats_gre

ush wrote: »

What do you mean "secured"? You mean Henderson, Enrique, Adam etc? Or do you mean signings that are coming this summer?

We need alot more players of Suarez quality. And given his temperament its not impossible that other big clubs looked at him and thought he isn't worth it.

I mean signed.

Chucky the tree

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

By all account, Liverpool seem to have secured the players that they have gone after in recent months.

I guess that Suarez is the stand out example that counters the argument. Why did he sign for us?

Yes it's great news we secured such sought after players like Carroll, Henderson, Enrique, Bellamy and Adam. Maybe he signed for us because no CL team was interested and Ajax accepted an offer? I don't remember any other CL team bidding £23m for him.