Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 11/12-Jan 2012 onwards

Phoenix Park

This evening I am sad. Very sad. I will turn off my TV/ laptop/ communication-with-outside-world now and turn them back on in 5 years time. Surely in 5 years time Charlie Adam will not be playing in the Liverpool first team.

Thought Suarez had a really good game today. We just don't know how to utilise him in a forward line. Carroll is highly unlikely to forge any sort of decent partnership with him. The most frustrating thing is just how ORDINARY we are in so many departments. Adam, Downing, even Henderson to be honest who I think is getting an easier ride than he deserves are all very solid top 8 players. Just not top 4 players. Thats too much ordinaryness (if i can make up a word) to challenge next season. The money might not be there to splash out this summer, but regardless of who is in charge i don't thnk anyone can catapult those players into top 4 material. We desperately need a goalscorer, we've got the defence sorted with Agger and Skrtel when fit, but we are deficient in other departments too i feel. Major changes in midfield are needed with additions over the next couple of seasons.

Sir Gallagher

Phoenix Park wrote: »

This evening I am sad. Very sad. I will turn off my TV/ laptop/ communication-with-outside-world now and turn them back on in 5 years time. Surely in 5 years time Charlie Adam will not be playing in the Liverpool first team.

Thought Suarez had a really good game today. We just don't know how to utilise him in a forward line. Carroll is highly unlikely to forge any sort of decent partnership with him. The most frustrating thing is just how ORDINARY we are in so many departments. Adam, Downing, even Henderson to be honest who I think is getting an easier ride than he deserves are all very solid top 8 players. Just not top 4 players. Thats too much ordinaryness (if i can make up a word) to challenge next season. The money might not be there to splash out this summer, but regardless of who is in charge i don't thnk anyone can catapult those players into top 4 material. We desperately need a goalscorer, we've got the defence sorted with Agger and Skrtel when fit, but we are deficient in other departments too i feel. Major changes in midfield are needed with additions over the next couple of seasons.

I think mediocrity is the word you're looking for! :pac:

Glico Man

Rekop dog wrote: »

He's always played as a striker for Uruguay, and did so to great affect in the Copa America last summer, in fact it's where he's been consistantly at his best on a world class stage for his country. Forlan played behind him in the classic number 10/trequartista roll, and Cavani was played as a winger when he played. He definitely plays better with a partner up front but the "Suarez is not a striker" line is something you started to hear Liverpool fans use, whether it was some way to justify his poor strike rate I don't know but it's a cop out.

He may have played up top, and he may indeed be a forward, but he's not a striker. He wasn't when he played for Nacional nor was he when with Ajax. He's always played with someone who is more of a natural finisher than he is. Which is why he has been so successful for Uruguay and for Ajax. He's not a #9 striker type player and that is what he has been playing for Liverpool.

Daithijjj said it right when he stated that Suarez is doing the role of Carroll as well as his own and as such, has not been as effective as he can be.

Leiva

Forget Where's Wally

Wheres Willy :pac:

Blatter

djPSB wrote: »

But I think you could do with an injection of patience. I am getting a sense of Deja Vu here. See below.

To be fair, things were a little different back then. At that point, Benitez' relationship with the cowboy owners was bordering on crisis. The club was in a dreadful state. He had less money to spend and important members of the squad were leaving or wanting to leave. The club was in heading in a bad direction, and everyone felt that. The team went stale, under performed and there was signs that Benitez was becoming disillusioned and was under increasing, unsustainable pressure with the whole situation.

Sometimes that happens, and even a good manager parting company and a clean break is often the right decision in that scenario. (not that getting rid of him for Hodgson was a sane thing to do)

But under the current owners, things would be totally different. The club has an air of stability about it now and would back Benitez. A reinvigorated and motivated Benitez with a 5 year plan would be good for Liverpool now and most certainly better than Dalglish long term imo.

Anyway, my point was that I don't see a problem with people who were calling for a clean break with a new manager under the cowboys and wanting Benitez as manager now. Two totally different situations.

opr

Rekop dog wrote: »

He's always played as a striker for Uruguay, and did so to great affect in the Copa America last summer, in fact it's where he's been consistantly at his best on a world class stage for his country. Forlan played behind him in the classic number 10/trequartista roll, and Cavani was played as a winger when he played. He definitely plays better with a partner up front but the "Suarez is not a striker" line is something you started to hear Liverpool fans use, whether it was some way to justify his poor strike rate I don't know but it's a cop out.

edit- examples
http://www.zonalmarking.net/2011/07/24/uruguay-3-0-paraguay-copa-america-final-tactics/

http://www.zonalmarking.net/2011/07/17/uruguay-1-1-argentina-copa-america/

The point is if you have him leading the line you need players around him to benefit from the havoc he is creating and the attention he draws. Uruguay have players around him who all chip in with goals. We don't have a single other striker at the club who is chipping in with goals. I just pointed out a few posts up that our midfielders have a total of five league goals from open play. Suarez chance conversion rate isn't good enough but I can guarantee the quality of chances created with his national side are far better and he isn't having to jink past three players and hit a shot while off balance. They have built a team of players around him to get the best out of having him up top, we haven't.

Opr

daithijjj

Gbear wrote: »

Against a good team you have to allow for some chances. Pepe should've done better for the 2nd aswell and while I agree that Carra is done, in the scheme of things it's irrelevant.

Why is Carra being at fault for 2 goals any more of a reason for defeat than missed chances and wastefulness in midfield? Who knows how many goals we cost ourselves with our wasteful and brainless play in the final third? Because it's not quantifiable the obvious thing is to lay the blame at the defence but I don't think that's fair.

To put it another way, who did the worse job today? Goal scorers, or our defence?

The notion we arent doing great up top is one that is pretty standard opinion amongst everyone. I was just making the point that Carra had fk all to do today where we dominated the game and the only time we needed him he wasnt up to it. The reason we went in at half time without the lead was Carra
.

Cantona's Collars

Can anyone confirm if there's truth in the reports of bust ups in the Liverpool dressing room after the game and players turning on Dalglish?

https://twitter.com/#!/32Red_LFC

Rekop dog

opr wrote: »

The point is if you have him leading the line you need players around him to benefit from the havoc he is creating and the attention he draws. Uruguay have players around him who all chip in with goals. We don't have a single other striker at the club who is chipping in with goals and are technically very good. I just pointed out a few posts up that our midfielders have a total of five league goals from open play. Suarez chance conversion rate isn't good enough but I can guarantee the quality of chances created with his national side are far better and he isn't having to jink past three players and hit a shot while off balance. They have built a team of players around him to get the best out of having him up top, we haven't.

Opr

I agree, my point was made purely to dispel the myth that he can't lead the line effectively, he can and has done on countless occasions for Uruguay.

Leiva

I don't think we should throw the baby out with the bath water.

I would like to see a marquee striker join the current setup (with the one or two obvious players needed) and see then how we/Kenny gets on.

There has been plenty of games this season that if we took the early chances then the whole game would have changed , and maybe , just maybe winning could have become a habit .

As much as i would love to see Rafa enter the current setup , I thing one more season with squad strenghtening added should be the least Kenny gets.

Kess73

mixednuts wrote: »

Forget Where's Wally

Wheres Willy :pac:

I'm from Liverpool, I have a spade, and I have a recently relayed patio here in Ireland.

Maybe my inner Brookie came to the surface.

Bandana boy

I would hate too see Rafa back, Felt the team was always set up to negative under him.
Meant the Pool became an awful team to watch and that brand of football does not win premier league titles.
tbh I would rather see Roy Evans back than Rafa

opr

Rekop dog wrote: »

I agree, my point was made purely to dispel the myth that he can't lead the line effectively, he can and has done on countless occasions for Uruguay.

It's funny I think Kess made the point recently in this thread that our signings after Carroll were geared it looked like in trying to get the best out of him. We would have been much better served focusing on singing players and building around Suarez. We now have a situation were we have a striker leading the line in a team that was built for a very different type of player.

Opr

daithijjj

Rekop dog wrote: »

I agree, my point was made purely to dispel the myth that he can't lead the line effectively, he can and has done on countless occasions for Uruguay.

Cavani and Forlan are/were leagues above the foil that Andy Carroll offers im sorry to say. Suarez scored 4 goals for Uruguay earlier in the season in one game in a world cup qualifier because the player beside him (Cavani) contributes in many other ways apart from scoring himself.

But he does not lead the line, he can be found out on the wing on many occasions, this isnt what a natural striker does.

Kess73

Sir Gallagher wrote: »

Post stalking is weird man.

Would disagree. I think djPSB was spot on to dig up my posts from January 2010. If I said something back then and his memory was good enough to remember I said it, then kudos to him on using it to argue his own point.

If a person takes the time to look up old posts that they remembered and uses them to as part of a debate, then the least I can do for them is say where I stand now on what I said in the past. Doesn't make either side right or wrong, but it keeps debaste and maybe banter going.

darced

This post has been deleted.

Kess73

opr wrote: »

It's funny I think Kess made the point recently in this thread that our signings after Carroll were geared it looked like in trying to get the best out of him. We would have been much better served focusing on singing players and building around Suarez. We now have a situation were we have a striker leading the line in a team that was built for a very different type of player.

Opr

What I had said was that I thought we should be building smart players around Suarez or using Suarez as part of the rebuilding process around a quality striker rather than building around Carroll.

The debate that day was about building around Carroll and I used Newcastele and how the built around Carroll (and how they improved dramatically as a team when they stopped doing so) as part of my arguement as to why we should not build around Carroll.

I felt that building around Carroll would lead to quite a one dimensional team, whereas building around smarter more adaptable players made more sense.

Leiva

Kess73 wrote: »

I'm from Liverpool, I have a spade, and I have a recently relayed patio here in Ireland.

Maybe my inner Brookie came to the surface.

I had you more as a Jimmy Corkhill type .

Ya Scallywag

Chucky the tree

darced wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

He did until he bought Carroll and has tried to introduce him. It's failed miserable. Problem now is we are stuck with a £35m dud and the owners will probably be relucatant to splash that sort of cash again. Also it's Kenny fault we don't have a striker, my worry is he has complete mis-managed the money and the tactical side of the game. It's clear the team plays much better without Carroll the big question is will Kenny now admit that and keep him off the starting 11.

Fowler87

The more things change...

26 games played 2010/11


26 games played 2011/12


1 miserly point better off in the league:(

willmunny1990

Kess73 wrote: »

I'm from Liverpool, I have a spade, and I have a recently relayed patio here in Ireland.

Maybe my inner Brookie came to the surface.

You wouldn't be able to get rid of Willmunny that easy Kess;)

Kess73

mixednuts wrote: »

I had you more as a Jimmy Corkhill type .

Ya Scallywag

Better than getting called the Lily Savage type I guess.

djPSB

Kess73 wrote: »

Yeah I thought it was right that Rafa went, and I did want him to go near the end.

I thought that the job became too much for the man, and that there were three problems at the club near the end of his time and that for Rafa to stay all three of them would have to be got rid of. I regared the cowboy owners as one of the problems, with Gerrard and Carragher being the other two. Rafa himself would also have had to learn from his own mistakes, but I think, and it is an opinion, that the cowboys and the two players made it impossible for Rafa to do his job and only his job.

I also said many times back then that even though I though Rafa should go, it should only be if a superior manager was brought in in his place, and that if a superior manager could not be gotten then Rafa should stay. I did not see the point of just being a Rafa fanboy and ignoring his faults as well as the other things that I saw as making his job impossible. Sometimes no matter how much you might want things to turn around or improve to a huge degree, you have to look at what you think are the facts and base your personal opinion on that. Which is exactly what I did. I think Rafa is a smashing bloke and really respect him as a person, but at the time I thought he had to go. Bring him back and put him in a position where he has better owners and Carragher/Gerrard at the end of their careers (as well as his own personal growth) and I think he would be a better wiser manager than he was before.

I still stand by what I said about Gerrard back then, and the seasons since Rafa left have pretty much shown that the magic turnaround in Gerrard's form bever happened.

You say just give Kenny time. Why say that to me? I have already said I don't want to see him sacked, and explained to you that my opinion is based on me thinking that he will move upstairs in the club and that something along those lines has already been spoken about at club level. I have also already said to you that if Kenny if manager at the start of next season that I have no problem with that and I will roar him on when I am at the ground.

So why are you saying to me to give him time?

When I say give him time, I am not directing that at you personally but to fans in general.

Alot of people called for Rafa's head and they got their way. Now they want him back. I just don't want the same thing to happen with Kenny.

Don't get me wrong, I am as disheartened as any fan after today's result but I think it is important to look at the bigger picture.

I think if we give Kenny another season to add 3/4 players to the squad, he will bring us to the top 4. These things take time. Granted he has made mistakes, but every manager does. It's a work in progress. And hopefully once we have a few more additions, players like Kuyt, Carragher, Adam, Spearing, Maxi won't be featuring on a regular basis. I think our best 11 could mix with the top 4 at the minute, but our squad isn't strong enough at the minute to contend. Unfortunately, due to injuries we haven't seen our best eleven on the pitch at the one time too often this season.

I just think we need to be patient, and Kenny will take us to the top 4 if given the time. I just don't want people to drive him out due to impatience like they did to Rafa.

darced

This post has been deleted.

mike65

I wish we could do a poll within threads, still here goes nuttin'!

If you think 4th place is now NOT possible please quote this picture



and state your objectives for the remainder of the season. For me its a no brainer, get Coates and Skrtel paired, bring Sterling and Suso onto the bench and give them some game time. Win the FA Cup.

delw

Fowler87 wrote: »

The more things change...

26 games played 2010/11


26 games played 2011/12


1 miserly point better off in the league:(

Roy & West Brom only 4 points behind :eek:
How would every one feel if they finish above us

Rekop dog

daithijjj wrote: »

Cavani and Forlan are/were leagues above the foil that Andy Carroll offers im sorry to say. Suarez scored 4 goals for Uruguay earlier in the season in one game in a world cup qualifier because the player beside him (Cavani) contributes in many other ways apart from scoring himself.

But he does not lead the line, he can be found out on the wing on many occasions, this isn't what a natural striker does

Many strikers regulary work the flanks during games for various tactical reasons.

Handsome Bob

Kenny, why u no make changes before 90 minutes.

opr

mike65 wrote: »

For me its a no brainer, get Coates and Skrtel paired, bring Sterling and Suso onto the bench and give them some game time. Win the FA Cup.

He must be extremely close to getting on the bench. He was with the squad today and was out before the game warming up with them.

Opr

Kess73

mike65 wrote: »

I wish we could do a poll within threads, still here goes nuttin'!

If you think 4th place is now NOT possible please quote this picture



and state your objectives for the remainder of the season. For me its a no brainer, get Coates and Skrtel paired, bring Sterling and Suso onto the bench and give them some game time. Win the FA Cup.

I don't think we can get 4th.

My objectives would be to finish as high as we can in the league, win the FA cup, and maybe phase out a few players by bringing youth to the bench/first team more often.

Coates for Carragher, maybe Sterling for Maxi and so on.


Pretty much the same as yourself, Mike.

joe123

I am actually seething about todays result. And for the first time Im thinking maybe Kenny has brought us as far as he could and we need a more technically minded coach.

We blew and yes thats the word for it a **** load of cash on average at best players.

Henderson - 20 million
Downing - 20 million
Andy "****ing useless no 1st touch" Carroll 35 million.

That right there is shocking. Any other manager bar Kenny and serious questions would be asked. Imagine if Rafa had spent 75 million and all we had to show for it was the carling cup!

Talk of a summer clear out? Its badly needed, yes even after spending so much this summer.

What the **** is comolli doing other than high fiving and looking like a twat?

Im so ****ing angry today.

Andy ****ing Carroll **** off please. We spent 35 million on someone who cant even make our first team. A team that cant score a ****ing goal!

ARGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

The owners stated 4th spot was a must. We havent got that. Im not saying I want Kenny to go but the first doubt is there in my mind now.

And if he does go there is only one man I would have back and thats Rafa. Without cowboy owners he could achieve great things.

**** off Andy Carroll. The End.

Chucky the tree

While I think 4th is very unlikely we still have to push for it until we lose again I feel. The way we played today should give us a great chance of winning a lot of games, hopefully Carroll is kept away from the team. If we slip up again then I'd want to see more chanes. Coates for Carragher should be a given at this stage anyway.

Leiva

mike65 wrote: »

Blood the youth kill the old !

opr

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrGNedgBvqM

Opr

billymitchell

djPSB wrote: »

When I say give him time, I am not directing that at you personally but to fans in general.

Alot of people called for Rafa's head and they got their way. Now they want him back. I just don't want the same thing to happen with Kenny.

Don't get me wrong, I am as disheartened as any fan after today's result but I think it is important to look at the bigger picture.

I think if we give Kenny another season to add 3/4 players to the squad, he will bring us to the top 4. These things take time. Granted he has made mistakes, but every manager does. It's a work in progress. And hopefully once we have a few more additions, players like Kuyt, Carragher, Adam, Spearing, Maxi won't be featuring on a regular basis. I think our best 11 could mix with the top 4 at the minute, but our squad isn't strong enough at the minute to contend. Unfortunately, due to injuries we haven't seen our best eleven on the pitch at the one time too often this season.

I just think we need to be patient, and Kenny will take us to the top 4 if given the time. I just don't want people to drive him out due to impatience like they did to Rafa.

This, right here, is the problem. Every year for the last 15 years, we have been saying bring in 3-4 players and we will win x,y or z. Now we 3-4 players short of getting fourth, we are going backwards at the moment.
I hope I am proved wrong, but I don't think Kenny is the man to push our club forward.

daithijjj

Rekop dog wrote: »

Many strikers regulary work the flanks during games for various tactical reasons.

There are different types of strikers, we have the one that goes wide or works the channels, we need the type who barely leaves the box, the Inzaghi or Lineker type player.

Leiva

Ahh here we nearly forgot one thing from today's game ...

Martin Skyrtl .

fella was immense again and did anyone see him just after we went behind high up the pitch getting possession back trying to grab the game by the scruff of the neck .

he is one big big positive from this season .

willowthewisp

If the same idiots wanting Kenny out and Rafa back had been happy with Rafa in the first place he would still be there. Some people learn nothing.

missingtime

mixednuts wrote: »

Ahh here we nearly forgot one thing from today's game ...

Martin Skyrtl .

fella was immense again and did anyone see him just after we went behind high up the pitch getting possession back trying to grab the game by the scruff of the neck .

he is one big big positive from this season .

There was a point in the second half when he was tangled up with one of the Arsenal forwards, he just threw 'em to the ground. Like a boss :pac:

Sasquatch76

Go for the FA Cup, get some young lads blooded. And a plan for the summer needs to be put in place in the coming couple of months. The Euros, any decision by KK to step down, stadium plans etc, would all affect our transfer activity this summer, so we need as less fannying about as possible.

Fowler87

missingtime wrote: »

mixednuts wrote: »

Ahh here we nearly forgot one thing from today's game ...

Martin Skyrtl .

fella was immense again and did anyone see him just after we went behind high up the pitch getting possession back trying to grab the game by the scruff of the neck .

he is one big big positive from this season .

There was a point in the second half when he was tangled up with one of the Arsenal forwards, he just threw 'em to the ground. Like a boss :pac:

Yeah he was great again today. Another moment was a random high ball in the 2nd half he took down under some pressure and simply layed it off instead of lumping it Carra style. Hes playr of season contender definitely

dubdamo

willowthewisp wrote: »

If the same idiots wanting Kenny out and Rafa back had been happy with Rafa in the first place he would still be there. Some people learn nothing.

Rafa working under good owners would be a different prospect to Rafa working under the previous muppets.

Leiva

willowthewisp wrote: »

If the same idiots wanting Kenny out and Rafa back had been happy with Rafa in the first place he would still be there. Some people learn nothing.

Name & Shame .

mike65

re Rafa Benitez - whatever about the change in working environment which is obvious one would have to assume his tactical approach to the domestic game won't have changed at all. So we could still expect safety first football and frustrating selections for games between euro ties, I also question his ability to spot a winger he actually likes!

When KD goes back upstairs it would wiser to look to fresh blood who won't play favourites to keep various parties happy.

kevohmsford

It is so obvious we need a quality striker. A poacher who will score from anywhere in the box or just outside. That was clear from watching the game today. Van Persie dug Arsenal out of a hole in the game. I think the owners will assess the situation in the summer before committing more funds for new players. It is just going to take time and money to turn us into a top four side. I agree that we should be giving some of the young lads in the reserves a chance in the first team now.

Tusky

delw wrote: »

Roy & West Brom only 4 points behind :eek:
How would every one feel if they finish above us

Shocking really...

The thing about backing Kenny further is it could be a dangerous game. His transfers have not substantially improved the team. They have not been nearly good enough. I'm not calling for his head but if we don't finish much higher up the table than last year, and it's not looking like we will, then the owners are in a v.difficult position indeed.

kevohmsford wrote: »

It is so obvious we need a quality striker. A poacher who will score from anywhere in the box or just outside..

Indeed - but what happens to Carroll in that scenario? He can barely get a game with the current crop of strikers.

kevohmsford

Tusky wrote: »

Indeed - but what happens to Carroll in that scenario? He can barely get a game with the current crop of strikers.

We probably should have started Carroll today, especially with Arsenal's dodgy defending recently. It is just looking like Carroll is not going to work out at Liverpool.

Tusky

kevohmsford wrote: »

We probably should have started Carroll today, especially with Arsenal's dodgy defending recently. It is just looking like Carroll is not going to work out at Liverpool.

We would have had to play a totally different system though. That's my main problem with Carroll, apart from his slew of poor performances, he requires the team to be set up in a very particular way and also needs perfect service to be effective. It's one of the reasons his signings always puzzles me. He only really works in a 4-4-2 or 4-4-1-1, yet our central midfield signings cant really play in a two man midfield (Adam, Henderson). It's almost as if no thought went into how it would all work together.

DB10

Dalglish is just lucky hes British otherwise, the media would be hanging him out to dry. With the money hes spent, not making the top 4 is a disaster. Benitez got dogs abuse from the media and even he didn't have as many big money flops.

As a an opposition fan, I honestly dont see Liverpool going anywhere under Dalglish or Benitez either, regardless of them being club legends.

murpho999

I think I'm alone in that I didn't expect us to achieve 4th place this season, yes I would have liked it but I thought it was a huge challenge especially when you consider who they had to beat to get it and also the low base the team was coming from over the previous 2 seasons.

Yes, there has been a lot of money spent in the summer, and we can argue all day about if they have flopped or not but don't forget there has been under-investment for a time before and in that same time City were became rich and Tottenham's project (which has taken a long time) began to bear fruit.

Think calling for Kenny's head is far too premature, work in progress and all that.
People forget the improvements in the team: Defence is a lot more solid being the major plus and also they are trying to play good football.

If we win the FA Cup then I think we can call it a good season, follow it up with investment in new players in the summer and more time for Kenny and Clarke to get their methods across then I'm convinced the club will flourish. Especially if the young players in academy start to come through.

I think fans should start thinking long term that began with arrival of new owners and appointment of Kenny.

Don't forget, City have only won an FA Cup despite spending hundreds of millions and Alex Ferguson faced the sack on numerous occasions before winning first trophy after 4 years with 1990 FA Cup, and look what happened after that!