Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 11/12-Jan 2012 onwards

ASOT

Rekop dog wrote: »

If Goodwillie^^ 2 goals in 15 including one he handled into the net is the best example of recent "succesful" singings from SPL it tells you everything you need to know about the standard.

I said hes been playing well ? Hes done alot more in them 15 games than carrolls done for us all season. Id much rather had of spent 5 million on him than the 35 on carroll.

Mr Alan

manual_man wrote: »

Jelavic isn't that bad

I was at a christening yesterday & watched the match with 2 Celtic fans who think he'd be a really good signing for us.

manual_man

Mr Alan wrote: »

manual_man wrote: »

Jelavic isn't that bad

I was at a christening yesterday & watched the match with 2 Celtic fans who think he'd be a really good signing for us.

We could probably do worse. I've seen him play a few times. He has looked good. But then again that is the SPL. Question is whether he could cut it at Premier League level

Leiva

Mr Alan wrote: »

I was at a christening yesterday & watched the match with 2 Celtic fans who think he'd be a really good signing for us.

Do you not think that he would be just another expensive stocking squad filler ?

If we are gonna spend I would like to see us get a player that we know will be first on the team sheet beside Suarez .
Might be more expensive but look what similar type purchase have got us do date , bar Jose if course .

Jayob10

Mr Alan wrote: »

I was at a christening yesterday & watched the match with 2 Celtic fans who think he'd be a really good signing for us.

he is a 5 million pound player at most.

His international record is nothing to write home about.

stumpypeeps

I think some serious thought should be given to.... as a replacement for Carroll.

ASOT

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfTgxrxL9ug

Jayob10

mixednuts wrote: »

Do you not think that he would be just another expensive stocking squad filler ?

If we are gonna spend I would like to see us get a player that we know will be first on the team sheet beside Suarez .
Might be more expensive but look what similar type purchase have got us do date , bar Jose if course .

exactly, another risk who may sink or swim.

I'd rather we saved our money rather than splash out on this guy. Pool the money and sign someone with real pedigree.

Sappy404

Lucas' injury (and Spearing's) has really shown what a poor work ethic some of our players have. Bolton had the momentum with that early goal but they made it count by working hard for the next 80 minutes.

To get anything out of Carroll we need the rest of the team to do the work for him. He's dropping back to his own half to get the ball FFS. Henderson and Adam offered very little in midfield yesterday. Kuyt seems to be waning, Maxi is like Carroll in that he wants the ball in the final 3rd, and Gerrard looked unfit at times, which isn't that much of a surprise.

opr

Rory Smith on Talksport.

http://www.talksport.co.uk/radio/transfer-talk-show/blog/2012-01-22/smith-recent-results-may-push-dalglish-spend-more-players

Opr

Rekop dog

ASOT wrote: »

Rekop dog wrote: »

If Goodwillie^^ 2 goals in 15 including one he handled into the net is the best example of recent "succesful" singings from SPL it tells you everything you need to know about the standard.

I said hes been playing well ? Hes done alot more in them 15 games than carrolls done for us all season. Id much rather had of spent 5 million on him than the 35 on carroll.

You could justify signing Stephen Hawkings when comparing it to spending 35 million on Andy Carroll it was that baffling. It's quite a flawed method of accessing future signings.

djPSB

Anyone who watched yesterdays game and is still blaming Carroll for our problems is just deluded.

I though it was fairly obvious that our problems are in midfield. I ain't a tactical genius, but any manager that plays Adam and Gerrard in a two man central midfield partnership is seriously optimistic.

I don't think Gerrard and Adam should be on the pitch at the same time. Adam should be used as back up to Gerrard. They defensive side of their games just isn't good enough.

Over the last few years our top marksmen were Torres and Gerrard. Fair enough we sold Torres for £50m but moving Gerrard back into a defensive midfielder role is seriously affecting our attacking options.

I don't understand why Kenny doesn't play Gerrard off Carroll up front.

As for our wingers, the less said about them the better.

I'm willing to give Kenny the time to sort things out, but we need to see a major improvement fairly lively.

Sappy404

djPSB wrote: »

Anyone who watched yesterdays game and is still blaming Carroll for our problems is just deluded.

I though it was fairly obvious that our problems are in midfield. I ain't a tactical genius, but any manager that plays Adam and Gerrard in a two man central midfield partnership is seriously optimistic.

I don't think Gerrard and Adam should be on the pitch at the same time. Adam should be used as back up to Gerrard. They defensive side of their games just isn't good enough.

Over the last few years our top marksmen were Torres and Gerrard. Fair enough we sold Torres for £50m but moving Gerrard back into a defensive midfielder role is seriously affecting our attacking options.

I don't understand why Kenny doesn't play Gerrard off Carroll up front.

As for our wingers, the less said about them the better.

I'm willing to give Kenny the time to sort things out, but we need to see a major improvement fairly lively.

Agreed. Carroll's an easy target (ironically) because of the pricetag. Criticising him and not looking at the other issues with the team is very short-sighted. He was actually one of our hardest working players yesterday (says a lot) and put in a great headed assist for Bellamy's goal.

ASOT

Rekop dog wrote: »

You could justify signing Stephen Hawkings when comparing it to spending 35 million on Andy Carroll it was that baffling. It's quite a flawed method of accessing future signings.

Not gonna lie he would be a tactical genius.

Hannibal

Rekop dog wrote: »

You could justify signing Stephen Hawkings when comparing it to spending 35 million on Andy Carroll it was that baffling. It's quite a flawed method of accessing future signings.

singling out Carroll is like picking on a soft target, it's not looking at the real reason we got beaten yesterday. Johnson, Enrique, Adam (not PL standard) and Maxi all had desperately poor games leaving Gerrard and Henderson isolated and overworked so they couldn't get supply to Carroll. Look how deep Carroll had to come to help the team out and try get on the ball, I genuinly feel sorry for the lad he's been starved of proper supply and support and with his price tag people expect him to be like Maradona.

Carroll is a player that needs service and support. For me he's a much better player than Crouch, Zamora etc but he needs help and the team need to play to his considerable strengths. If we paid £35m for Suarez and £22m for Carroll then there's no problem with there's no doubting that for his style of play we overpaid but the lad is 23 and he has the talent to be as important as John Toshack was if he's used correctly and that includes fans getting behind him.

mike65

Thinking about that game, I'd have pushed Agger into the DM role with Coates, Kelly or Carra in his place.

When changes were made (at 3-1 down!) they were horribly wrong. I'd have gone with this. Shelvey for Hendo, Kelly for Adam, Coates for Carroll.

---

Reina
Kelly---Skrtel--Coates--Enrique

---

Shelvey-Agger
Johnson---Gerrard----Maxi

---

Bellamy

hardly ideal for defending but attacking would have been the name of the game by this point!

opr

It really is like talking to a brick wall when talking to people about Carroll. No one is singling the guy out. The point that people have made over and over and over and over yet still all people take is that we are singling him out. The type of football we have seen Kenny play is not conducive to having a Carroll type striker. I don't want to change the way Kenny had us trying to play at the back end of last season and at times this season. This is why if you are not going to try and change the style of play to suit him I don't see the point in persisting with him.

Opr

PHB

barone wrote: »

am i reading this right..

the shi t stirrers who come in here to cause trouble get a warning and maybe a temp ban..

those who fall into their trap and respond and call them trolls get a permanent ban??



really?

You're reading this right. I typed it wrong. B was meant to be permanent ban. C was meant to be infraction. Cloptrop has been perma banned from the forum. Everyone who called him a troll was infracted.

Apologies.

djPSB

opr wrote: »

It really is like talking to a brick wall when talking to people about Carroll. No one is singling the guy out. The point that people have made over and over and over and over yet still all people take is that we are singling him out. The type of football we have seen Kenny play is not conducive to having a Carroll type striker. I don't want to change the way Kenny had us trying to play at the back end of last season and at times this season. This is why if you are not going to try and change the style of play to suit him I don't see the point in persisting with him.

Opr

Downing, Adam and Henderson don't fit into that system either.

And Meireles is a massive loss, he was a key player for us towards the end of last season.

opr

djPSB wrote: »

Downing, Adam and Henderson don't fit into that system either.

And Meireles is a massive loss, he was a key player for us towards the end of last season.

Why don't you try answering the question instead of just naming other players ?

No Downing doesn't and we compounded the mistake of buying Carroll by buying him to support a style of football it looks like we never intended trying to play.

Huh Henderson ? He would be pretty much exactly the type of player you would be looking for. Adam can and would be a useful asset at 8m within the system but as has been said he needs Lucas beside him or to play in a three man midfield. It still doesn't take from the fact I would have been happy to have him in the squad.

Opr

Sir Gallagher

Can we start talking about possible managers for next season? We all love Kenny but its not happening. John Henry wont be having a bar of this.

But hey, maybe i'm a kneejerker and its really Andy's fault.

manual_man

Sir Gallagher wrote: »

Can we start talking about possible managers for next season? We all love Kenny but its not happening. John Henry wont be having a bar of this.

But hey, maybe i'm a kneejerker and its really Andy's fault.

Away with that

DrumSteve

Sir Gallagher wrote: »

Can we start talking about possible managers for next season? We all love Kenny but its not happening. John Henry wont be having a bar of this.

But hey, maybe i'm a kneejerker and its really Andy's fault.

Warnock?

Sir Gallagher

DrumSteve wrote: »

Warnock?

Maybe Phil Brown? He's got mad halftime teamtalk skillz.

stumpypeeps

#LFC since Dalglish:

Sales: Torres/Babel/Ngog/Meireles/Poulsen/ Konch' £73m.

Expenditure:Carroll/Downing/Henderson/Suarez/Adam/Enrique/Coates £105m

It could have started better for many of the acquisitions and a lot of the money could have been spent more wisely. However, for a net spend of £32 million, we are better off.

Kess73

DrumSteve wrote: »

Warnock?

Maybe bring Henchoz back as his assistant manager.

Sappy404

opr wrote: »

Why don't you try answering the question instead of just naming other players ?
...
Opr

Did you ask a question?

Kess73

stumpypeeps wrote: »

It could have started better for many of the acquisitions and a lot of the money could have been spent more wisely. However, for a net spend of £32 million, we are better off.

Those figures look wrong, plus they leave out a few players, but I do agree with what you say in terms of the net spend that was made having made the squad better than it was.

Sir Gallagher

stumpypeeps wrote: »

It could have started better for many of the acquisitions and a lot of the money could have been spent more wisely. However, for a net spend of £32 million, we are better off.

The net spend arguement is utter nonsense. Was the money spent wisely? No. Thats the long and short of it.

jesus_thats_gre

Sir Gallagher wrote: »

The net spend arguement is utter nonsense. Was the money spent wisely? No. Thats the long and short of it.

I don't know whether it is down to how my head works but the argument against net spend is something that I really don't get.

stumpypeeps

Kess73 wrote: »

Those figures look wrong, plus they leave out a few players, but I do agree with what you say in terms of the net spend that was made having made the squad better than it was.

I can't vouch for the figures. They look reasonably fair.

The acquisition of Suarez and Enrique alone justify any excess money spent. In hindsight, the money could have been spent better. I just get the feeling Dalglish was adament about Downing, Adam, Henderson and Carroll.

Perhaps this folly will encourage the owners to put more stock into Comolli's opinion. I think that could be a good thing.

opr

Sappy404 wrote: »

Did you ask a question?

Why persist with a striker who is at complete odds with the football you are trying to play ?

Opr

stumpypeeps

opr wrote: »

Why persist with a striker who is at complete odds with the football you are trying to play ?

Opr

If the square peg doesn't fit into the round hole, get a jigsaw and a tape measure and reshape the entire hole to accept the square peg.

Sappy404

stumpypeeps wrote: »

It could have started better for many of the acquisitions and a lot of the money could have been spent more wisely. However, for a net spend of £32 million, we are better off.

Not to mention Degen and Insua and the other squad players released, and the wages all of these players were on. Talk in the summer was the wages saved in the cull over the course of those contracts vs. those of the new signings worked out at the club breaking even in 5 years or so. I don't know if that's true though.

Sir Gallagher

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

I don't know whether it is down to how my head works but the argument against net spend is something that I really don't get.

Its another excuse for the signings not being good enough, a cop out.

Phoenix Park

opr wrote: »

Why persist with a striker who is at complete odds with the football you are trying to play ?

Opr

Exactly. People need to face the fact that the Carroll transfer has not worked. As our options are limited up front (with Suarez out and Kuyt horribly out of form) I don't have problem with Carroll continuing in the side this season, if he gets a decent run it might increase his resale value. Because of his age and "potential" there are sides who would be interested in the summer at around the £14-16 million sort of mark, and i think this is a loss on a player we should stongly consider taking. When Robbie Keane was ditched early on some reports say we got 16mil (some say 12 million) and this was good business for us in hindsight. If we sold Carroll at a loss of 20 million, that is the sort of figure we have blown on Downing and Aquilani yet those deals get little attention in comparison. I think there would be plenty of takers for him if the price is right.

stumpypeeps

Sir Gallagher wrote: »

Its another excuse for the signings not being good enough, a cop out.

Isn't it just a little early to be panicking? Every team, no matter the talent, can look abject when not playing well.

Sappy404

opr wrote: »

Why persist with a striker who is at complete odds with the football you are trying to play ?

Opr

For the record I agree with what you're saying about it not just being Carroll's fault, but you didn't ask a question in that post in fairness!

redzerdrog

bring back Rafa with the backing on the current owners he would be amazing!

Sir Gallagher

stumpypeeps wrote: »

Isn't it just a little early to be panicking? Every team, no matter the talent, can look abject when not playing well.

Can you honestly see this side doing anything of note? I may be coming across as a negative pr1ck but i'm completely dissillusioned with the whole set up and i'm tired of the excuses being made for us being pure sh1te.

Kess73

Sir Gallagher wrote: »

The net spend arguement is utter nonsense. Was the money spent wisely? No. Thats the long and short of it.

It is not a nonsense arguement as long as it is seen as part of the overall picture and not as some standalone point meant to negate any criticism.


I think that the squad is stronger than it was 12 months ago, but that with the advantage of hindsight the larger individual spends have so far been poor.

There are plenty of pros and cons that can be rolled out for the last 12 months, but I think that for me anyway a lot boils down to a conversation I tried to have on here a week or so ago which got shot down by a lot of super fan type comments.

My gut feeling is that Kenny is a short term appointment. That he was given the three year contract (on top of the 5 months as caretaker) in case the club did not get the man they want within 18 to 30 months of Kenny coming in to steady the ship.

I still think that a new man will come in either this summer or next and that Kenny will move upstairs then. I still think that Kenny came back knowing all of this.

Now I think the owners for their part decided that in order to steady the ship they would have to back the man they were putting in place and allow him to bring in a fair few players in order to do so. Most of the big money spends have not worked out to date, but the owners went with the manager on who he wanted.

I also think that this window could be an indicator as to whether or not the owners think that Kenny can get a CL slot. If they think he can do it, then he may get backed heavily to bring in one or two quality players who could make a difference. But if they think he cannot, and there is a manager lined up for the summer already, then they may just go with what we have right now and not give any spending money this window and instead keep it for the new guy in the summer.

noodler

Sir Gallagher wrote: »

The net spend arguement is utter nonsense. Was the money spent wisely? No. Thats the long and short of it.

Absolutely agree.

Just a way of sugar coating the fact 100m+ has largely been spent unwisely.

th3 s1aught3r

redzerdrog wrote: »

bring back Rafa with the backing on the current owners he would be amazing!

I think bringing Rafa back would be a step back again for us. He had six years, long enough, let it go

opr

Until yesterday I have been very supportive of almost everything. I don't mind the fact we have made mistakes in the transfer market as I think with any rebuilding project they will happen. What really pissed me off yesterday was obvious things on the pitch that I can't explain away.

Moving Henderson back to the wing where he has been a complete disaster.
Moving Gerrard back into a deep CM role.
Then trying to play Adam beside him. Lucas struggles with the work load when Gerrard is beside him how the hell was Adam ever going to cope.

Opr

djPSB

th3 s1aught3r wrote: »

I think bringing Rafa back would be a step back again for us. He had six years, long enough, let it go

Ya he had 6 years and only delivered a Champions League. And brought us to second in the league.

Brought players like Alonso, Torres, Mascherano to the club.

Disaster.

whatawaster

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

I don't know whether it is down to how my head works but the argument against net spend is something that I really don't get.

We sold players and our squad needed a lot of replacements. No denying we lost a lot of talent in the previous 12 months, but . . .

We spent over 100 million filling those holes. I'm not sure if it would have been possible to spend that money any worse.

If you offered Carroll, Downing, Adam and Henderson on the open market now (80m plus of signings), they wouldn't be worth half of what we paid for them. Collectively, those signings are slow, lacking in creativity and technical ability. The very qualities we needed to fill our squad with. The only one of those signings i'd consider making again in hindsight is Henderson, who I think has a lot of potential, and is technically a very good player (imo)

But to say we only spent 30m net and have improved and suggest we ought to be happy with that doesn't sit well with me at all.
We got a ridiculous amount of money for Torres, and should have bought a minimum of 4/5 top quality players with that 100 million. We have come nowhere near that.

For that, serious questions need to be asked about either Comolli/Kenny or both. Only Henry & Co. will know who is more to blame. Someone at the club should be on a knife-edge at the moment. Someone at the club is no longer to be trusted with LFC's money.

redzerdrog

th3 s1aught3r wrote: »

I think bringing Rafa back would be a step back again for us. He had six years, long enough, let it go

I was only messing anyway but id rather talk about anything than yesterdays embarrassment of a performance

although i can only imagine what rafa could have done with decent backing but he wont be back the internet would crash if that ever happened

noodler

We need stabilisation and I would certainly back Rafa to get us into the top 4 before Kenny would.

djPSB

opr wrote: »

Until yesterday I have been very supportive of almost everything. I don't mind the fact we have made mistakes in the transfer market as I think with any rebuilding project they will happen. What really pissed me off yesterday was obvious things on the pitch that I can't explain away.

Moving Henderson back to the wing where he has been a complete disaster.
Moving Gerrard back into a deep CM role.
Then trying to play Adam beside him. Lucas struggles with the work load when Gerrard is beside him how the hell was Adam ever going to cope.

Opr

Agree with all that.

But I don't think it is possible to play the system we played towards the end of last season with the players we have.

That style of play relies heavily on player intelligence, movement and players using bags of creativity going forward.

Players like Carroll, Adam, Henderson and Downing and are very one dimensional and don't fit into such a system. Although they do have strengths in a more rigid system.

ricero

The way I see it is that were getting ahead of ourselves as usual with our expectations this season.it's nearly a completly new 11 within a year, our home form against the weaker teams has been poor as usual.the football we play is decent it's not like we play negative football. We just badly need a out and out goal scorer and a winger. A top 6 finish and a trophy is a good season in my eyes. 2 or 3 quality signings and we can push on next season for top 4