Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 11/12-Jan 2012 onwards

mormank

Bandana boy wrote: »

Rafa was way to cautious
In the 2008 season we should have won the league
scores 0-0 20 mins to go against
Villa
Stoke Twice
Fulham
Westham
he withdrew Strikers and replaced them with midfield players
That is being too cautious

look at a Mourinho or a Ferguson and they would put all attacking options left to them on the pitch in the same scenario

With regards Robbie
I dont think he was the right buy but once bought he should have tried to use him.Limiting his game time ,taking him off early when historically he scores more goals at the end of a game and as a striker who scored in spurts dropping him after he scores was Rafa showing the Board who was in charge/proving his point.
It probably cost us our best chance to win a league since the Collymore/Fowler partnership ,all too feed his ego.

I'm afraid I would have to agree with the comments regarding substitutes being too cautious. With 20 mins to go in any game we are drawin, bar maybe the biggest sides in the league, Rafa should've been more adventurous. You only need to win the game from a drawing position once in every 3 attempts to make it a profitable scenario, assuming you don't lose every one of the other two. This is so simple but it is something that many managers seem to miss or ignore as they are just too afraid of losing.

argosy2006

We never looked liked we cared when we gave penalty away,
No complaining, Wasn't a fa cup semi lol

What i,m saying it hard to judge us in league here on in considering league is over for us,

Its hard to be mentally right on pitch when you know it doesn't really matter.
And its not a deliberate attitude ,Its just there,

Do you really thing we will look slow and tired in FA cup semi,

No !

Quality striker and a quality midfielder plus add some home grown young players,And get gerrard out of midfield
UNSTOPPABLE next season

Paully D

mike65 wrote: »

We will have to agree to disagree. Meanwhile here's an apology from Paul Tompkins (full article) http://tomkinstimes.com/2012/03/in-depth-why-are-liverpool-struggling/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+TheTomkinsTimes+%28The+Tomkins+Times%29

Tomkins lost me at this point:

A club like Liverpool – with massive expectations but not quite the money to deal with them

How much has Kenny spent?

You couldn't make it up.

Paully D

djPSB wrote: »

Imagine this situation:

- Owners are unhappy with league performance.

- They are unhappy with the way their money was used in the transfer window, with large amounts being spent on over rated British players.

- They decide that Kenny Dalglish is not the man to take the club forward.

- They look at Newcastle as the model that they are trying to implement. Selling over valued players for good money and buying talented players from abroad for small transfer fees.

- They are within touching distance of the Top 4 and are still in contention.

- The owners are starting in England with a clean slate and are just judging their new manager on what they have seen since they came to England just over a year ago.

- They realise that they are unlikely to attract a top manager from Europe due to our poor position in the league.

- They decide that Alan Pardew is the man to take the club forward implementing a similar strategy to which he did at Newcastle.

Good situation or bad situation?

Awful situation if you're a Liverpool fan.

Mike Ashley, Derek Llambias and Graham Carr are the men behind what Newcastle are doing in the transfer market, not Pardew.

Ashley won't get any credit for it but he's been superb for Newcastle considering the state they were in when they took over.

Pardew has done an excellent job in managing the players he has had, but if I was Liverpool and wanting to implement a similar model then I'd be going all out for their chief scout, Graham Carr.

Sappy404

Paully D wrote: »

Tomkins lost me at this point:



How much has Kenny spent?

You couldn't make it up.

He's probably referring to the new stadium, as well as FSG's policy of spending the club's income with a view to sustainability rather than investing hundreds of millions of their own money on transfer fees and wages like Chelsea and City.

Leiva

Perspective :mad:

“@th14Renato: Krul, Coloccini, S Taylor, Santon, Marveaux, Tioté, Cabaye, Ben Arfa, Ba and Papiss Cisse = £34.5m. Andy Carroll = £35m. #nufc #lfc”

Paully D

mixednuts wrote: »

Perspective :mad:

Can't be arsed to count them up myself, but does that include free transfers as £0, or take into account agent fees?

The agent fees for Demba Ba and his team of agents will total around £5m alone, Marveaux's will have been a couple of million too.

Still, it is mental to think Carroll cost £35m when all those were just a bit more combined.

Jesus Wept

Reekwind wrote: »

The truly bizarre thing about this whole scenario is that those, genuinely world class, players wouldn't have been all that more expensive than the dross that Liverpool ended up with. Mata, for example, cost Chelsea a mere £3m more than Downing went to Anfield for. Crazy

You are merely forgetting about wages, a common mistake. It's not something the club or the club's finances forget about I assure you.

Mata will cost Chelsea considerably more than Downing will cost Liverpool (over the course of their contracts/per year). I can't say how much because I don't know how much they are on, but I have little doubt that Mata's salary dwarfs that of Downing's.

I suppose this fact will be referred to as some sort of hokum or witchcraft along with net spend but it is simply reality.

It's akin to arguing that rather than buy some 2 year old Hyundai save the planet type car that you could just as easily buy a 5 year old hummer in similar condition and get to ride around town like a ****ing gang$ter.

The reality is in the latter case you'd end up spending a multiple on insurance, road tax and have to stop at the local Topaz every 12 miles to stock up on petrol and bitches.

Reekwind wrote: »

For a £100m it should have been very possible to build LFC into a title-challenging side

Not when you sell £70m around the same time.

Oranage2

Paully D wrote: »

Can't be arsed to count them up myself, but does that include free transfers as £0, or take into account agent fees?

The agent fees for Demba Ba and his team of agents will total around £5m alone, Marveaux's will have been a couple of million too.

Still, it is mental to think Carroll cost £35m when all those were just a bit more combined.

LOL, it isnt football manager.

Reekwind

The-Rigger wrote: »

You are merely forgetting about wages, a common mistake. It's not something the club or the club's finances forget about I assure you.

Mata will cost Chelsea considerably more than Downing will cost Liverpool (over the course of their contracts/per year). I can't say how much because I don't know how much they are on, but I have little doubt that Mata's salary dwarfs that of Downing's

I'd be surprised if it was to a huge degree. The new signings are not cheap in that regard: Carroll alone is supposed be on £70k a week, with Downing and Henderson also on hefty pay

Maybe LFC couldn't have afforded Mata's wages, I don't know, but he was just an example. There are many quality players that you could get for £70k a week

Not when you sell £70m around the same time.

Well yes. Torres obviously wanted out but the only other players that Liverpool would have missed was Meireles and Benayoun. Both of the latter two fairly easily replaceable

Look at who else Liverpool released last season: Konchesky, Mavinga, Bruna, Jovanovic, Ayala, Insua, Kyrgiakos, Poulsen, Ngog. How many of these would realistically expect to feature in the first team squad this season? How many of these were missed?

redzerdrog

Oranage2 wrote: »

LOL, it isnt football manager.

lol what a stupid reply. No it is not football manager and in the real world agents get paid a huge amount of money and free transfers generally get huge sign on fees.

Reekwind

Paully D wrote: »

Can't be arsed to count them up myself, but does that include free transfers as £0, or take into account agent fees?

The agent fees for Demba Ba and his team of agents will total around £5m alone, Marveaux's will have been a couple of million too

The same fees would have been built into Liverpool's signings. The absolute figures themselves are not important but the comparison itself speaks volumes about the relative levels of spending

Revolution9

Oranage2 wrote: »

LOL, it isnt football manager.

noodler

mike65 wrote: »

I do, it was only sustained between early march 2009 and May 2009 when the handbrake was let off fully and it was thrilling to watch but all too often it was control but not enough threat due the suspicion that he was always thinking about what the opposition could do rather than what Liverpool should do.

I think this is a good point.

Those who wish to completely debunk the idea that we were overly-rigid or defensive under Rafa seem to place a disproportionate emphasis on the above time period where we destoryed Villa 5-0, Madrid 4-0, Utd 4-1 etc.

ThunbergsAreGo

noodler wrote: »

I think this is a good point.

Those who wish to completely debunk the idea that we were overly-rigid or defensive under Rafa seem to place a disproportionate emphasis on the above time period where we destoryed Villa 5-0, Madrid 4-0, Utd 4-1 etc.

Maybe but at least then we had control of a match.

I have watched nearly all the Liverpool games this year and we rarely look in control or indeed go two goals up on the opposition

noodler

naughtb4 wrote: »

Maybe but at least then we had control of a match.

I have watched nearly all the Liverpool games this year and we rarely look in control or indeed go two goals up on the opposition

Yeah, my point is in isolation. I am not defendinf this season at all.

The whole 'dominating everybody and only needing to put goals away' point has been made for about a dozen games this season.

opr

noodler wrote: »

I think this is a good point.

Those who wish to completely debunk the idea that we were overly-rigid or defensive under Rafa seem to place a disproportionate emphasis on the above time period where we destoryed Villa 5-0, Madrid 4-0, Utd 4-1 etc.

No people who think that way place a disproportionate emphasis on our European play within the view they hold of how we played overall under Rafa.

The reason Rafa had those results in that season was because in Europe he started playing like he had always done against the weaker teams in the premiership. From his point of view I think he finally believed we had a team capable of standing toe to toe with Europes best and knocking them out. His ability to be self aware of his teams strengths but also weaknesses in setting them up in Europe was nothing short of phenomenal. You watch premiership managers who think they can go out in Europe and play the same way they do against the likes of Stoke which is a ****ing joke.

People watched us in Europe when we played a containing game because Rafa knew we weren't good enough to stand toe to toe and needed to box clever and let this form an opinion that he was defensive.

Opr

joe123

It would be really interesting to see how many liverpool fans would actually like Rafa back. Im the only one out of my friends that would like him back.

Still will be shocked if Kenny doesnt get another year. I hope he does tbh.

Revolution9

:eek:

68 - Despite being out of action for 4 months Lucas Leiva has made 68 tackles, more than any other Liverpool player.

Tusky

Revolution9 wrote: »

:eek:

wow.

mike65

Opr just before the turnaround in attitude we we getting held 0-0 at Boro in a hideous game and drawing to Wigan. The idea that Liverpool were batting PL opposition aside throughout that season (or in previous ones) is just plain wrong. Go back and find earlier megathreads.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055335094&page=312

Does anyone look through the old threads? Fascinating to see how opinions can be shown to be so wrong but sometimes scarily right. Not to mention transfer links that seem bizarre/unlikely/sadly didn't happen in hindsight

Reekwind

From the above link:

"Spending 15 million Bale makes no sense at all"

CL7

joe123 wrote: »

It would be really interesting to see how many liverpool fans would actually like Rafa back. Im the only one out of my friends that would like him back.

Still will be shocked if Kenny doesnt get another year. I hope he does tbh.

I'd love to have him back. It was madness to get rid of him in the first place. I wouldn't like to see Kenny sacked and I'd hate it if the fans turned on him. I don't think he's the man to take us further though. Hopefully he'll realise this himself and step down at the end of the season.

Leiva

Reekwind wrote: »

From the above link:

"Spending 15 million Bale makes no sense at all"

This one from Mike on 8-9-2008 about Gerrard really stands up today aswell .

He's a terrible captain in truth, they only have one job in footie - to lead and he doesn't do that. If he's having a good game its grand but if he's not then he offers nothing to the rest of the team - Bryan Robson was probably the ultimate captain (though some would say Souness naturally!) but both had the same full bloodied approach regardless of the circumstances.

opr

mike65 wrote: »

Opr just before the turnaround in attitude we we getting held 0-0 at Boro in a hideous game and drawing to Wigan. The idea that Liverpool were batting PL opposition aside throughout that season (or in previous ones) is just plain wrong. Go back and find earlier megathreads.

We also destroyed Newcastle and Bolton around the same time. What does cherry picking certain results have to do with anything ?

Opr

argosy2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Alan
I fully expect Owen to end up with us in Jan.

opr

mike65 wrote: »

Opr just before the turnaround in attitude we we getting held 0-0 at Boro in a hideous game and drawing to Wigan. The idea that Liverpool were batting PL opposition aside throughout that season (or in previous ones) is just plain wrong. Go back and find earlier megathreads.

Just on these games. I didn't remember them as clearly as stoke but I did a little digging and the same thing we dominated most of the game but just couldn't break them down. I am not saying Mike that we were destroying teams left, right and centre from a scoreline point of view but in the context of controlling games and attacking teams we generally killed it.

I am trying to dispel this notion that Rafa was defensive. In those two games you mention we had 61% and 72% of the play with both match reports saying the same thing. Couldn't turn domination into goals. That's is what we lacked, the quality in our attacking play.

One of my overriding memories as a football fan will be the sheer frustration I experienced in watching games under Rafa when we seemed to be relentlessly attacking teams but couldn't find a way to pick the lock. If you force a team into defending like we did with our domination they're going to be incredibly hard to break down and we needed more quality, on the wings especially, not to be more attacking.

Opr

argosy2006

''RAFA THRILLED WITH RIERA SWOOP''

"He's the kind of player we have been talking about. He can beat players with stick and get good deliveries of bread into the area for our strikers to have breakfast
"We've known about him for a long time, since he was at Mallorca and then through his career with Bordeaux, Manchester City and Espanyol.
He's a left footer who normally plays on the bench

"He can talk Scouse of course ,he knows the Premier League, which is a big bonus. Usually foreign players need time when they go to a new country, but Riera already knows the league and the boring football we play,Everybody knows his name, and we're almost glad he came

Handsome Bob

The-Rigger wrote: »

Not when you sell £70m around the same time.

There's no ****ing excuse, how anyone can make this net spend argument after the post mixednuts made in relation to how we basically bought the entire NUFC team for them is ****ing beyond me.

Jayob10

Not saying I don't rate Rafa, he has got some unbelievable qualities as a manager.

He is a better manager than Kenny, thats a fact. Kenny got the job because he was an upgrade on Roy. Rafa is an upgrade on Kenny but doesn't mean he should be the first to be offered the job should it become available.

We need to make a clean break, stop returning to the past to solve our problems.

Kenny has signed poor players thats the bottom line. We lose successive games on countless occasions, this is never a good sign. Good teams and management ensure set backs are rectified. How many times have we lost 2 or 3 on the trot this season? too many times for our club.

Dalglish is capable of getting teams playing good football. My issue is his eye for a player.
People mention Barnes, Beardsley, Etc... well we were the top dogs in those days. Every player in the country wanted to play for us.

Now he is being tested to build a side capable of being a force again. And whatever way you look at it, this season has been a flop. and his big money signgings have not just been bad, they will go down as some of the worst in the club history.

But its amazing what having friends in the media will do for you.

Gbear

mormank wrote: »

I'm afraid I would have to agree with the comments regarding substitutes being too cautious.

As with everything, people use an intuitive type of reasoning to make up their minds.

As with everything, that reasoning is prone to myopia and bias.

Enter Paul Tomkins - the guy people scoff at because he has the cheek to use evidence to come to his conclusions.
http://tomkinstimes.com/2010/04/sub-standard-rafas-subs-record/

While that argument doesn't constitute absolute proof, it's better than a vague general intuitive sense that people tend to have in football.
That's not a dig at you btw, everyone does it.

Jayob10

argosy2006 wrote: »

''RAFA THRILLED WITH RIERA SWOOP''

"He's the kind of player we have been talking about. He can beat players with stick and get good deliveries of bread into the area for our strikers to have breakfast
"We've known about him for a long time, since he was at Mallorca and then through his career with Bordeaux, Manchester City and Espanyol.
He's a left footer who normally plays on the bench

"He can talk Scouse of course ,he knows the Premier League, which is a big bonus. Usually foreign players need time when they go to a new country, but Riera already knows the league and the boring football we play,Everybody knows his name, and we're almost glad he came

I question Rafa's handling of attacking players. Torres was a good signing of course, but there was little else, only a conveyor belt of widemen in and out. The ones the played half decent were pushed out the door either directly, or indirectly by his treatment of them.

noodler

opr wrote: »

No people who think that way place a disproportionate emphasis on our European play within the view they hold of how we played overall under Rafa.

The reason Rafa had those results in that season was because in Europe he started playing like he had always done against the weaker teams in the premiership. From his point of view I think he finally believed we had a team capable of standing toe to toe with Europes best and knocking them out. His ability to be self aware of his teams strengths but also weaknesses in setting them up in Europe was nothing short of phenomenal. You watch premiership managers who think they can go out in Europe and play the same way they do against the likes of Stoke which is a ****ing joke.

People watched us in Europe when we played a containing game because Rafa knew we weren't good enough to stand toe to toe and needed to box clever and let this form an opinion that he was defensive.

Opr

Some of what you say goes off point imo but I still feel that that glorious 6-month period at the end of the 2008/2009 season is being brought up a little too often to make a point.

Anyway, I am not trying to argue Rafa wasn't a great manager for the club just to say he had plenty of rough patches in the league - prticularly at the start and the end.

SlickRic

we need to play Andy Carroll.

he's not the greatest number 9 in the world, but the freedom he quite blatantly gives Suarez is essential.

Suarez needs to roam.

also, Coates at LCB for the rest of the season, and Skittles back to RCB.

Kenny's face during the game, as well as that ridiculous post-match interview tell a lot IMO.

i don't think he quite knows how to get us going.

as well as that, him bemoaning the fact he had to use Sterling was ludicrous. he was instantly our most likely player. he SHOULD be on the bench for the rest of the season. he won't be though.

the lack of drive was frightening.

MD1990

SlickRic wrote: »

we need to play Andy Carroll.

he's not the greatest number 9 in the world, but the freedom he quite blatantly gives Suarez is essential.

Suarez needs to roam.

also, Coates at LCB for the rest of the season, and Skittles back to RCB.

Kenny's face during the game, as well as that ridiculous post-match interview tell a lot IMO.

i don't think he quite knows how to get us going.

as well as that, him bemoaning the fact he had to use Sterling was ludicrous. he was instantly our most likely player. he SHOULD be on the bench for the rest of the season. he won't be though.

the lack of drive was frightening.

his attitude towards Sterling getting game time was bizarre
your good enough your old enough
of course u have to take care of his development & not play him every game
but he done very well & deserves more minutes

ShamoBuc

I'd much prefer Sterling coming on with 20 left when we are 2 goals up, thus not applying any pressure in him, just go out and enjoy.
Unfortunately, the way we are playing he will be coming on when we are chasing a game unfortunately.

Chucky the tree

SlickRic wrote: »

we need to play Andy Carroll.

he's not the greatest number 9 in the world, but the freedom he quite blatantly gives Suarez is essential.

Suarez needs to roam.

also, Coates at LCB for the rest of the season, and Skittles back to RCB.

Kenny's face during the game, as well as that ridiculous post-match interview tell a lot IMO.

i don't think he quite knows how to get us going.

as well as that, him bemoaning the fact he had to use Sterling was ludicrous. he was instantly our most likely player. he SHOULD be on the bench for the rest of the season. he won't be though.

the lack of drive was frightening.

Why Andy Carroll? He provides nothing in terms of goals, assists, work rate, link up play or creativity. He's a decent lad to hoff the ball up to and have coming back on corners so why start Coates up front? His control and touch would probably be better than Carrolls and in turn more useful for us as a team. The problem is Suarez is isolated so why not play a guy who up front who suits Suarez style, with quick one touch football. We need to start playing Maxi or Gerrard behind Suarez.

cson

Jayob10 wrote: »

the problem is this is littered with "what may have been" scenarios

Vidal for Adam

Mata for Downing

Defour for Henderson

Llorente for Carroll

Thats just for starters.

Jesus just looking at this post; shows you the value you can get in foreign players.

opr

ShamoBuc wrote: »

I'd much prefer Sterling coming on with 20 left when we are 2 goals up, thus not applying any pressure in him, just go out and enjoy.
Unfortunately, the way we are playing he will be coming on when we are chasing a game unfortunately.

Couldn't agree with that more. I thought it was a really strange decision to bring him on with the team trailing, crowd going mad etc. The fact he came off to a chorus of boos was sickening.

Opr

Bandana boy

Gbear wrote: »

Enter Paul Tomkins - the guy people scoff at because he has the cheek to use evidence to come to his conclusions.
http://tomkinstimes.com/2010/04/sub-standard-rafas-subs-record/

So what does that cut of data tell us ?
pretty much nothing except around the time he makes a substitution is in line with other clubs.
We are not other clubs ,you would need to examine that against clubs challenging for a top 4/title as securing a draw 20 mins to go is a sound tactic for the likes of Wigan but not imo Liverpool and the other pretenders to a top 4 position.
I like the writing of Tomkins but he always had a Rafa Bias and an example here is that he does not address the main criticism of Rafa's subs policy,that being that the players he brings off/takes off where seen to be negative with regards changing the result.
From my recollection this tended to be withdrawing strikers and wingers for holding midfield players and defenders in games I felt our competitors would introduce more attacking firepower.

I recall a statistic from 2008 that showed how LFC and MUFC had similar draws positions with 20 mins to go and while MU turned more into a losing position than we did they also significantly turned more into a winning position.The net was 9 points more than Liverpool from that position which was more than the difference between us at the end.
Now I understand that you need to bring the quality on their benches compared to ours into consideration, and while there was a clear gap between depths between ours and MU's squads ,my opinion was that Fergie looked at Draw positions with 20 mins to go as an opportunity to win the game while Rafa looked on it as an opportunity to consolidate the draw.

One could also argue that turning those positions around gave a momentum and belief to the Man U squad that was possibly the difference that season.

mike65

ShamoBuc wrote: »

I'd much prefer Sterling coming on with 20 left when we are 2 goals up, thus not applying any pressure in him, just go out and enjoy.
Unfortunately, the way we are playing he will be coming on when we are chasing a game unfortunately.

opr wrote: »

Couldn't agree with that more. I thought it was a really strange decision to bring him on with the team trailing, crowd going mad etc. The fact he came off to a chorus of boos was sickening.

Opr

Yesterday I suggested he was brought on as a distraction, to give the slightly angry crowd something to cheer.

Make of this what you will.

We have got a problem winning games in the league. We have to educate ourselves and maybe we have to not play the lovely football that we have been." Asked whether that meant he was considering deploying a more direct style of play, he replied cryptically "maybe we have to change our philosophies a wee bit" and declined to elaborate.

5starpool

opr wrote: »

Couldn't agree with that more. I thought it was a really strange decision to bring him on with the team trailing, crowd going mad etc. The fact he came off to a chorus of boos was sickening.

Opr

The 3rd biggest cheer of the day was when he came on though, got a standing ovation. When he touched the ball the first time there was a real increase in crowd noise and I thought "Jesus, no pressure kid".

Crash Bang Wall

Didnt notice the booing when he came on to be honest.

Was hoping he would get a game, win lose or draw. If KKs man management skills are as good as they are supposed to be than I would imagine he was told to go make yourself a hero son.

Thought he done well, and a few sub appearances over the next few weeks, will, IMO do him no harm, with a start in there somewhere as well if he does ok

5starpool

Crash Bang Wall wrote: »

Didnt notice the booing when he came on to be honest.

Was hoping he would get a game, win lose or draw. If KKs man management skills are as good as they are supposed to be than I would imagine he was told to go make yourself a hero son.

Thought he done well, and a few sub appearances over the next few weeks, will, IMO do him no harm, with a start in there somewhere as well if he does ok

There was no booing when he came on, Opr is talking about the boos at the end of the match for the whole team. Having said that though, when all the Liverpool players had left the pitch, the Wigan players got applauded off by the Liverpool fans still in the stadium.

Crash Bang Wall

5starpool wrote: »

There was no booing when he came on, Opr is talking about the boos at the end of the match for the whole team. Having said that though, when all the Liverpool players had left the pitch, the Wigan players got applauded off by the Liverpool fans still in the stadium.

Apologies......didnt read the post properly....its late.

Glad the fans applauded Wigan though, they deserved the victory without a shadow of a doubt.

Not a fan of booing your own players, but Im not a fan of players not giving 100% either, and the players were not giving it their all. Lack of confidence may be understandable, lack of effort, heart and pride is not.....and Im not buying KKs tired bullsh!t......how do Barca manage

SlickRic

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Why Andy Carroll? He provides nothing in terms of goals, assists, work rate, link up play or creativity. He's a decent lad to hoff the ball up to and have coming back on corners so why start Coates up front? His control and touch would probably be better than Carrolls and in turn more useful for us as a team. The problem is Suarez is isolated so why not play a guy who up front who suits Suarez style, with quick one touch football. We need to start playing Maxi or Gerrard behind Suarez.

Carroll is not that bad for one.

we win more than we lose with him starting games, and, it's not about Carroll so much as what it does for Suarez.

whether you like it or not, Suarez seems to get more freedom and be more of a threat when Carroll is there. if you don't like Carroll, then maybe we can try Dirk ahead of Suarez, i don't care. but Suarez cannot be our main creator, and then be expected to be our main source of goals at the same time.

eugeneious

https://twitter.com/#!/JenChang88

Interesting reading about Suarez/Caroll effectiveness on his timeline that would be of interest to yas...

Tusky

I think it's pretty obvious that Suarez isn't suited to being a lone centre forward. He thrives with plenty of players around him. He needs to roam, and play one twos with other players with good movement. It's one of the many things that has boggled me about the way we are set up to play this season.

SlickRic wrote: »

but Suarez cannot be our main creator, and then be expected to be our main source of goals at the same time.

A very good point and right on the money. Too much is being asked of him. Yes, his goal return is disappointing, but surround him with better players or even a system that works, and he will thrive. At the moment he is dropping deep to create things while also trying to be on the end of them.

Nuri Sahin

Kess73 wrote: »

Well if we want to look at similar stats, dig up our results since Gerrard returned to the team after his injury and compare it to our results whilst he was out injured.
We gained more points this season (and in the past) with Gerrard not starting than we have with him starting.

Could just as easily be argued that Gerrard should be out of the team based on points gained/lost.

I'm referring to the final third of the pitch.

Gerrard is a very different case due to the position he is playing in currently , and thus has less of an impact on a game than ever before. Injuries have also played a part as well of course. Gerrard supporting Carroll (both of whom looked to have some understanding, point in case game vs Newcastle) with Suarez on the right (his best position for club, be it for us or in the past for Ajax and Nacional) with Maxi/Downing/Bellamy on the other side is the way to go. I'd honestly play Shelvey if not Henderson alongside Spearing. If I see Henderson play wide right one more time I'm gonna lose my head. Cannot and will not be able to play there.

Back to Gerrard, I hate repeating myself, but seeing him play CM frustrates the life out of me as IMO he can still play the AM role. He is the only one capable of doing it effectively at present. Suarez can but needs a finisher beside him.

Chucky the tree wrote: »

There are plenty of other ways you can find Suarez space, the problem is Kenny doesn't seem interested in it. With Adams nose dive is form playing two players like Carroll and Suarez up top just isn't possible, especially now with Adam's injury. We saw yesterday when we play 442 we just get dominated in possession. Wigan played us off the park yesterday until Shelvey came on. If we are playing Suarez up top we need make sure he gets support and the best way to do that is by playing Gerrard behind him or Maxi.

A few of my points were made above. I personally despise the 442 formation, it's a dinosaur formation in most cases. Very rare that teams have such flexibility to really make it work, United over the years have done this very well unfortunately. We lack pace (can't believe I'm still saying this in 2012, ugh!) and intelligence to make it work and have so many rigid players. Gerrard as an AM has this. Meireles had it. Likewise Aqualini, Yossi, Maxi, etc, etc. Suarez has this but cannot do it on his own all the time. Sterling has shown glimpses of this too in his time with us.

mormank

Gbear wrote: »

As with everything, people use an intuitive type of reasoning to make up their minds.

As with everything, that reasoning is prone to myopia and bias.

Enter Paul Tomkins - the guy people scoff at because he has the cheek to use evidence to come to his conclusions.
http://tomkinstimes.com/2010/04/sub-standard-rafas-subs-record/

While that argument doesn't constitute absolute proof, it's better than a vague general intuitive sense that people tend to have in football.
That's not a dig at you btw, everyone does it.

I get what you are saying but this doesn't quite prove that he wasn't too cautious with his subs. It just shows that when he did make subs it helped the team. If anything frustrating me further that he was so cautious with them. Imagine where we would've been if he had been more adventurous.

Take Kenny this season for example, I know he is very cautious with his subs but I couldn't tell you whether or not his subs have had a positive effect over the course of the season tbh. They are two different points.