Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 11/12-Jan 2012 onwards

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...people have been saying for years that Arsenal need to win the LC for the same reason

Leiva

Kess73 wrote: »

Am stunned that anyone would want to just ignore the cups and gamble that not being in the cups meant we would get 4th.

The club needs to get silverware in again. It needs it.

Whether it is the League cup, the FA cup or whatever.

We need to get a win under the belt and then try to take that winning mentality a step further.


Think back to the 2000/2001 season. The squad was not massive then either, but winning the League cup back then seemed to galvanise the team and give them the belief in themselves that they could keep winning. The FA cup and UEFA cup followed that season. I doubt if anyone here was unhappy that season.

I can still remember being at the 2006 FA cup final, and I know I was buzzing to be there. I have felt the same at each and every final the club has been in since the late 80's. I don't care if the final if for the league cuip or the Champioins league, I just want my club to win it.

I get where people are coming from when they say they want the club to concentrate only on the league, but my mentality towards things is that if you can win it then you go for it.

Right now there are three targets on the table in the form of a CL spot, the League cup, and the FA cup. For as long as each can be realistically fought for, I expect the manager and players to go for them.

I dont think people are saying one or the other .

And i understand what your saying ...cause i firmly believe MAN City wouldn't be in their current frame of mind if they hadn't won the cup last season

(eg)
For me its if we are really close on both a Cup and 4th place spot and we need to hold back some resources for either , then my preference would be let the weaker team play on the cup game , and stronger in the PL game .

There is a good chance we may have to make that decision . That is if we get our act together and show some urgency and balls for that 4th spot before Arsenal or Chelsea do , or even Newcastle .

Kess73

mixednuts wrote: »

I dont think people are saying one or the other .
And i understand what your saying ...cause i firmly believe MAN City wouldn't be in their current frame of mind if they hadn't won the cup last season

(eg)
For me its if we are really close on both a Cup and 4th place spot and we need to hold back some resources for either , then my preference would be let the weaker team play on the cup game , and stronger in the PL game .

There is a good chance we may have to make that decision . That is if we get our act together and show some urgency and balls for that 4th spot before Arsenal or Chelsea do , or even Newcastle .

People have said one over the other in this thread today.

ush

YouTookMyName wrote: »

I think the winning the league cup would take the pressure off, knowing they have guaranteed a uefa cup spot they could push on for the european cup place.

UEFA Cup run would compile the damage.

Leiva

Kess73 wrote: »

People have said one over the other in this thread today.

My bad then .

If i offered you a cup or 4th what would you say ?

spockety

ush wrote: »

Winning a cup will be a Pyrrhic Victory.

Not finishing in the top 4 means losing Suarez to a CL outfit. Losing Suarez means back to square one.

Not qualifying for the CL means its harder to attract quality players.

I think its very much either/or. This squad is being spread too thin and there's no inward movement on the transfer market. We have two good strikers, one is banned and the other is made of glass. Bellamy can't keep this up. We got 6 pts from a possible 18 and we have to play the two best teams in the country again, before we have another league match.

YouTookMyName

'So... what the fuck happened at Bolton then?'

Kess73

mixednuts wrote: »

My bad then .

If i offered you a cup or 4th what would you say ?

Offering one over the other is different to saying that the club simply should not contest the cups to improve the chances of getting 4th.

In a fantasy world if you could guarantee me that the club defo gets one of the two options you said, then I would probably take 4th, but the real world does not work that way. Playing a weaker side to get knocked out of the cups does not make getting 4th any more realistic imho. All it does is give the team more experience of losing and less experience of dealing with pressure.

The manager and players should want to win both cups and get 4th place. If any of them think that competing on more than one front is too much, then they are at the wrong club.

opr

Kess73 wrote: »

Am stunned that anyone would want to just ignore the cups and gamble that not being in the cups meant we would get 4th.

Another instance when it would be nice if people weren't so black and white about things. I don't think anyone wants us to ignore the cups but the priority should be the league games.

Opr

ush

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Huh?

As for the harder to attract quality players argument, this has been dealt with before (hint: Suarez, Meireles!), but basically we are more attractive (and will be for a long time yet) than a bunch of clubs that have CL football. Tradition still counts for a lot in that respect. Yes, we are behind the very best Spanish, English and Italian clubs - but we're doing fine relative to Lille, Basle, etc.

Well, Meireles left. Pretty high and dry he left us too. What happens with Suarez remains to be seen. But I don't expect him to be as patient as Torres was.

As for being attractive, thats on the wane. How long do you think we can hold our appeal, in an ever increasing global marketplace, without being at the competitive end of the league and CL.

Also, we really do need to compete. Liverpool as a city has lost a lot of ground in a post-industrial world. Milan-Barcelone-Madrid-Manchester-Paris-London. Imagine being a young multi-millionaire checking out properties there. Now compare that to Liverpool. Thats why currently competing against the best is important. Not the black and white memories or the great CL runs of the Benitez era.

LuckyLloyd

I look at it in simpler terms. We're realistically not getting fourth this season.

As such, I say this week is utterly massive for the club. There were similar debates had on here in April 2010 as we closed in on the Europa League.

ush

spockety wrote: »

LuckyLloyd

ush wrote: »

Well, Meireles left. Pretty high and dry he left us too. What happens with Suarez remains to be seen. But I don't expect him to be as patient as Torres was.

As for being attractive, thats on the wane. How long do you think we can hold our appeal, in an ever increasing global marketplace, without being at the competitive end of the league and CL.

Also, we really do need to compete. Liverpool as a city has lost a lot of ground in a post-industrial world. Milan-Barcelone-Madrid-Manchester-Paris-London. Imagine being a young multi-millionaire checking out properties there. Now compare that to Liverpool. Thats why currently competing against the best is important. Not the black and white memories or the great CL runs of the Benitez era.

You talk as if that was decades ago. We played in a Champions League Final four and a half years ago ffs! People have an inability to see the wood from the trees. Our future in the medium to long term is brighter than that of Spurs for example, but people can't process that because OMG! they're higher than us in the league table right now.

D'Agger

Anybody have any interest in signing Odemwingie??

Would think himself and Suarez would link up well together and he has an eye for goal, attitude problem though I'd say.

Not world class but could do a job for us imo

amiable

PaulieC wrote: »

Anybody have any interest in signing Odemwingie??

Would think himself and Suarez would link up well together and he has an eye for goal, attitude problem though I'd say.

Not world class but could do a job for us imo

Can be very lazy so not the player for me I'm afraid

opr

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I look at it in simpler terms. We're realistically not getting fourth this season.

As such, I say this week is utterly massive for the club. There were similar debates had on here in April 2010 as we closed in on the Europa League.

I still stand solidly behind that Rafa's insistence on playing players we needed for much more important league matches was one of his biggest mistakes.

The league cup realistically has already cost us any chance of fourth when Lucas got injured during the Chelsea match. Freak injury maybe that could have happened anytime but the amount of playing time Lucas was being asked to put in meant his body had a far higher penchant to injury.

Opr

ush

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

You talk as if that was decades ago. We played in a Champions League Final four and a half years ago ffs! People have an inability to see the wood from the trees. Our future in the medium to long term is brighter than that of Spurs for example, but people can't process that because OMG! they're higher than us in the league table right now.

Could be decades again before we're in a CL final. Thats the kind of complacency I'm warning against. Thinking that a league cup or UEFA cup spot will do, because you know we'll get there eventually.

Chucky the tree

Kess73 wrote: »

And what if we do get 4th, do we then have to decide whether or not we contest the CL next season?


If our squad is so weak that we cannot contest a domestic cup or two along with the league, then it is in no shape to even think about trying to compete in Europe at the same time as the league.

Well hopefully if we got 4th Kenny and co would do a bit of strengthening to the squad.

Leiva

amiable

Martin Atkinson to ref the FA cup game on Saturday

Sappy404

amiable wrote: »

Can be very lazy so not the player for me I'm afraid

If you put him into a functioning team shy of an athletic, potentially excellent striker he'd do well.

If you put him into a team that played like we did on Saturday he probably wouldn't offer much more than Carroll.

So basically he'd be a decent signing, probably cheap too, who could be excellent with Suarez, Lucas and Gerrard around him. He wouldn't be the solution to our problems at present though.

amiable

Sappy404 wrote: »

If you put him into a functioning team shy of an athletic, potentially excellent striker he'd do well.

If you put him into a team that played like we did on Saturday he probably wouldn't offer much more than Carroll.

So basically he'd be a decent signing, probably cheap too, who could be excellent with Suarez, Lucas and Gerrard around him. He wouldn't be the solution to our problems at present though.

Agreed. I'm thinking of a player to spur us on now and he's not that IMO.

amiable

terenceeley Terence Eley
Eden Hazard: "With all respect to Chelsea, I'd rather join a club with history such as Liverpool or Arsenal."

opr

amiable wrote: »

terenceeley Terence Eley
Eden Hazard: "With all respect to Chelsea, I'd rather join a club with history such as Liverpool or Arsenal."

GTFO - No way that quote is real

Opr

Turtyturd

amiable wrote: »

terenceeley Terence Eley
Eden Hazard: "With all respect to Chelsea, I'd rather join a club with history such as Liverpool or Arsenal."

Why do I get the feeling that is not a bland enough quote to be legitimate?

Kess73

opr wrote: »

Another instance when it would be nice if people weren't so black and white about things. I don't think anyone wants us to ignore the cups but the priority should be the league games.

Opr

Actually it is another instance where it would have been nice if the person actually read back through the thread rather than trying to come out with some comment about wishing others were not so black and white on things. The post I originally responded to did say that the cups should not be contested at all.

daithijjj

opr wrote: »

I still stand solidly behind that Rafa's insistence on playing players we needed for much more important league matches was one of his biggest mistakes.

The league cup realistically has already cost us any chance of fourth when Lucas got injured during the Chelsea match. Freak injury maybe that could have happened anytime but the amount of playing time Lucas was being asked to put in meant his body had a far higher penchant to injury.

Opr

Yea, i was just going to post something similar. Club, players and manager need to be singing from the same hymn sheet. When we were resting players in the league or taking them off early due to Europa games, that had to have an effect on morale of some players who wanted to be back in the CL as priority. Have a look at Spurs in the Europa this year, did Bale even play 30 mins in the whole thing?, it has seen them push on the league and practically guarantee what they initially started the year to get.

kop77

amiable wrote: »

terenceeley Terence Eley
Eden Hazard: "With all respect to Chelsea, I'd rather join a club with history such as Liverpool."

hefferboi

PaulieC wrote: »

Anybody have any interest in signing Odemwingie??

Would think himself and Suarez would link up well together and he has an eye for goal, attitude problem though I'd say.

Not world class but could do a job for us imo

He's a player who performed well while on a short term contract but the minute he got a big renewal he did nothing and hasn't done anything since. Would rather go for demba ba or steve fletcher if we were thinkin about him.

Leiva

amiable wrote: »

terenceeley Terence Eley
Eden Hazard: "With all respect to Chelsea, I'd rather join a club with history such as Liverpool or Arsenal."

At last I know Kess's real name

mike65

I should just point out that when I lit this fuse I stated "if Liverpool get to the League Cup final...." clearly a final against Cardiff/Palace should be perfectly winnable as the team would be up for it in no uncertain terms. The EL is no place for ambitious teams and I'm happy that this season was skipped but playing in Europe next year will be of utmost importance, simply to indicate that the club are on an upward curve again.

amiable

mixednuts wrote: »

At last I know Kees's real name

I wouldn't read too much in to that. That's probably a bit of an old quote with someone adding their little bit to it.

opr

Kess73 wrote: »

Actually it is another instance where it would have been nice if the person actually read back through the thread rather than trying to come out with some comment about wishing others were not so black and white on things. The post I originally responded to did say that the cups should not be contested at all.

No the post asked should they be contested fully. Basically should the league not be given priority in some sense or another.

I will consider this month a disaster (Edit - Bit strong but I won't be overjoyed) if we lose both league games and progress in the cups.

Opr

Blatter

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

You talk as if that was decades ago. We played in a Champions League Final four and a half years ago ffs! People have an inability to see the wood from the trees. Our future in the medium to long term is brighter than that of Spurs for example, but people can't process that because OMG! they're higher than us in the league table right now.

Why do you think that? Isn't Liverpool's revenue similar to Spurs'? And Spurs have plenty of quality players, many of whom are only going to get better; Bale, Kaboul, Lennon, Modric, Walker, Sandro, BAE, Livermore etc. supplemented by the likes of VDV, King, Dawson, Parker, Huddlestone, Defoe, Gallas, Pienaar etc.

If they do end up selling Bale and/or Modric eventually they well get an absolute fortune for both. And if they were to reinvest that money correctly, they could become even better. They are very likely to be in the CL next season, so may spend a fair bit of money improving an already very good squad in the Summer - and Redknapp is likely to leave and I can see them attracting a top class manager.

I agree with your point in general that people are often too short sighted and place far too much emphasis on what is happening in the present as an indication as to what will happen in the future, but I'm not sure I can see how one can say Liverpool have better medium to long term prospects that Spurs. They seem to be very well placed for the future as far as I can see.

Helix

Chucky the tree wrote: »

The bet is just Liverpool finishing 10 points ahead of Villa.

http://m.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=73794784#post73794784 post #968

hmmm I thought it was the one i said. wonder who i have that one with then lol

Kess73

opr wrote: »

I still stand solidly behind that Rafa's insistence on playing players we needed for much more important league matches was one of his biggest mistakes.

The league cup realistically has already cost us any chance of fourth when Lucas got injured during the Chelsea match. Freak injury maybe that could have happened anytime but the amount of playing time Lucas was being asked to put in meant his body had a far higher penchant to injury.

Opr

So regular crap performances from big money players, some strange tactics by the manager and at times an inability to adapt tactics during games, lack of a cutting edge up front etc etc all have nothing to do with the club's position in the league? No it is all because of the league cup.

And you posted about me being black and white on things.:D


Lucas being out is a big blow, but it is not the only reason the club is floundering in the league, far from it.

opr

Kess73 wrote: »

So regular crap performances from big money players, some strange tactics by the manager and at times an inability to adapt tactics during games, lack of a cutting edge up front etc etc all have nothing to do with the club's position in the league? No it is all because of the league cup.

And you posted about me being black and white on things.:D

Lucas being out is a big blow, but it is not the only reason the club is floundering in the league, far from it.

If Lucas wasn't injured we would be above Chelsea now. I 100% believe that.

Opr

Kess73

opr wrote: »

No the post asked should they be contested fully. Basically should the league not be given priority in some sense or another.

I will consider this month a disaster (Edit - Bit strong but I won't be overjoyed) if we lose both league games and progress in the cups.

Opr

Really? This looks a lot like it is saying the cups should not have been contested.

Neither of the cups should have been contested. They should have been used to give the second string a competitive fixture. They'll cost us fourth

That is what I replied to, not what Mike65 posted.

Crazy Horse 6

People really believe a good run in the league cup is costing us forth? Wow just wow.

Kess73

opr wrote: »

If Lucas wasn't injured we would be above Chelsea now. I 100% believe that.

Opr

If our squad is so weak that Lucas being out means the team cannot come fouth, as you said, then it speaks volumes about Kenny and the other players not being good enough.

opr

Sorry I presumed since you didn't quote a post and Mike sparked the debate we were all working off the same hymn sheet.

Kess73 wrote: »

If our squad is so weak that Lucas being out means the team cannot come fouth, as you said, then it speaks volumes about Kenny and the other players not being good enough.

The other factors that you listed have all contributed to the downfall in the league but the Lucas injury has been the domino which caused many of those problems. In my eyes you should just be using that squad better and if a player is integral to the team with little or no backup I don't think playing him in a league cup game is a good idea when he has had little to no rest all season.

Opr

ush

Crazy Horse 6 wrote: »

People really believe a good run in the league cup is costing us forth? Wow just wow.

Had we beaten Bolton we'd be fifth. But they're head was on the cup games. We lost to Fulham in the league, direct after beating Chelsea in the league cup. Had we won those two league games we'd be fourth.

City and Utd this week is going to sap too much energy from the team.

Kess73

opr wrote: »

Sorry I presumed since you didn't quote a post and Mike sparked the debate we were all working off the same hymn sheet.



Opr

So basically you are saying it is old man Mike65's fault then? That works for me.


I did actually quote the post btw in my first reply on that topic

mike65

If it wasn't for you pesky kids!

Helix

cup run or nay, Liverpool are performing about where most people would reasonsbly have expected them to imo

anyone expecting more was coddling themselves

and what were people expecting from kenny? how long had he been out of the management game and people genuinely expected him to take them top 4? come off it lads

NabyLadistheman

Helix wrote: »

cup run or nay, Liverpool are performing about where most people would reasonsbly have expected them to imo

anyone expecting more was coddling themselves

and what were people expecting from kenny? how long had he been out of the management game and people genuinely expected him to take them top 4? come off it lads

You obviously missed the second half of last season. Why wouldn't we expect a top 4 position? Oh let's aim lower and be satisfied with 6th or 7th. We are still only 6 points off the top 4, not alot considering the criminal amount of points we have dropped at home.

Mr Alan

Helix wrote: »

cup run or nay, Liverpool are performing about where most people would reasonsbly have expected them to imo

anyone expecting more was coddling themselves

and what were people expecting from kenny? how long had he been out of the management game and people genuinely expected him to take them top 4? come off it lads

Actually, I (and most people I think) expected slightly better. Not massively, but just a slight shade more. Considering we're only slightly off from where we want to be & have lost our two best players for large chunks of the season, hoping for top 4 was/is not as idiotic as you seem to think.

Kess73

Helix wrote: »

cup run or nay, Liverpool are performing about where most people would reasonsbly have expected them to imo

anyone expecting more was coddling themselves

and what were people expecting from kenny? how long had he been out of the management game and people genuinely expected him to take them top 4? come off it lads

He was expected to compete for a CL slot. Given that Arsenal and Newcastle at one point ahead of Liverpool are deemed to be competing for 4th, then I think that Liverpool could be seen as being in a position to do likewise.

But even notwithstanding the two big players that are currently out, there are a number of other issues that need serious work and quickly if a challenge for a CL spot is to be realised.

Helix

Suarezistheman wrote: »

Why wouldn't we expect a top 4 position?

because you're not good enough

Crazy Horse 6

I'd like to believe we are capable of winning both cups and finishing 4th also. Since when did LFC settle for less. All the players are well paid pro's and need to remember they are playing for one of the biggest clubs in the world and with that comes huge responsibility and 100% effort and positive attitude for every match. Until the team learns that playing the likes of Bolton or Stoke takes the same commitment as when playing your United's/City's/Chelsea's or whoever we will never achieve much. I expect Kenny will let the players know as much.