Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 11/12-Jan 2012 onwards

OwaynOTT

Damn the FA and their kick out adjectives campaign!

5starpool

mormank wrote: »

Also to whoever said in the past few days that Adam does not have the second most assists in the league this season I would like to rectify that by saying that Adam does indeed have the second most assists of anyone in the league this year. Booya! Come on guys, credit where credit is due in fairness.

Not according to this.

http://www.statbunker.com/football/btb/index.php?PL=competition&CompID=373&statType=assist

Grayditch

He does.

Silva 13
Adam 10
Valencia 9
Nani 8
Sessegnon 8

There might be confusion, where some stats don't take into account winning a scored penalty.

K-9

Grayditch wrote: »

He does.

Silva 13
Adam 10
Valencia 9
Nani 8
Sessegnon 8

There might be confusion, where some stats don't take into account winning a scored penalty.

Ah right, got a couple of penalties and that free kick against United!

Think it's 6 though, by old money standards! Bang for buck, not bad though.

Jesus Wept

Wonder how long the queue will be to meet the Didi.

seanwhite20

The-Rigger wrote: »

Wonder how long the queue will be to meet the Didi.

mormank

5starpool wrote: »

Not according to this.

http://www.statbunker.com/football/btb/index.php?PL=competition&CompID=373&statType=assist

Well my granny says something different too, but going by the premier league own site adam has second most assists. Why not go by the website of the very league we are discussing rather than believing grannys and whatnot???

Just give the man his credit. For all those who say he has been poor or whatever, sure but maybe we haven't been playing to his strengths either, just like carroll. The man does create goals tho, that can't be taken away from him.

mormank

K-9 wrote: »

Ah right, got a couple of penalties and that free kick against United!

Think it's 6 though, by old money standards! Bang for buck, not bad though.

Sure but by old money standards we would only have 28 points in the league too. We don't use old money anymore, that's why it's referred to as old money!

Jesus Wept

seanwhite20 wrote: »

How long is a piece of string? Twice as long as half it's length.

I watched that video in it's entirety. It was a long 2 minute 24 seconds.

Sappy404

mormank wrote: »

Also to whoever said in the past few days that Adam does not have the second most assists in the league this season I would like to rectify that by saying that Adam does indeed have the second most assists of anyone in the league this year. Booya! Come on guys, credit where credit is due in fairness.

It depends where you look. OptaJoe was saying yesterday that Opta's definition for assists is different from the Premier League's definition.

All you can say for sure is that assist statistics don't prove much and should be taken with a pinch of salt.

Leiva

Really is boiling down to whoever goes on a roll will take 4th.

Only thing concerning me is our Feb and early March fixtures.
It's probably our toughest 5 weeks of the whole season , if we can come out of that with a reasonable tally of points then we just need not to have another Bolton like game then I'm confident we will nick it .

Fingers, legs , arms , balls - crossed !

Sappy404

mixednuts wrote: »

Really is boiling down to whoever goes on a roll will take 4th.

Only thing concerning me is our Feb and early March fixtures.
It's probably our toughest 5 weeks of the whole season , if we can come out of that with a reasonable tally of points then we just need not to have another Bolton like game then I'm confident we will nick it .

Fingers, legs , arms , balls - crossed !

Crossed balls would definitely help for the remainder of the season alright. Are you reading this, Downing and Enrique?

LuckyLloyd

Sappy404 wrote: »

It depends where you look. OptaJoe was saying yesterday that Opta's definition for assists is different from the Premier League's definition.

All you can say for sure is that assist statistics don't prove much and should be taken with a pinch of salt.

If anyone here has ever read Moneyball they'll know a thing or two about how statistics can paint an insightful picture into onfield sporting performance - assuming painstaking care and attention is put into defining what constitutes every data point.

Example: Winger picks up the ball on touchline with opposing midfielder and fullback closing in. He somehow manages to skin both of them and reach the byline at pace delivering a devastating ball into the box.

A) Defender has two onrushing strikers and keeper has been beaten by the quality of the cross and it hits off him and goes in;
The cross takes all opposition defenders out of the equation and striker on the back post taps it back across for his partner to tap it in;

In either scenario, the winger gets no statistical credit for the goal, eventhough his play created it. In the A scenario, the defender gets a statistical error debited against him even though there was nothing he could have personally done to prevent the situation. The fullback and midfielder who were skinned by the winger and directly culpable for the defensive breakdown suffer no such statistical debit.

In my opinion, the winger should be credited with an assist in this case, and there should be an "error" statistic available to mark against the fullback and midfielder, as that would become one of the most valuable and telling statistics recorded on a season by season basis.



I don't believe statistics in football are meaningless, particularly team stats. But there is definitely a huge flaw in how stats capture credit and debit for the scoring and concession of goals. I also have no doubt that really smart people could revolutionise this aspect of football if they were incentivised to do so. Pass completion is another area that could be remodelled statistically - there should be a way to capture intent and risk in the numbers.

Cartman78

Only caught up with the match highlights last night - it was great to see Carroll scoring and even more impressive was the manner in which he got ass up the pitch to be on the end of that cross.

I don't think he would have bothered either a) initially defending the Wolves corner, or b) sprinting up to support play a few weeks ago.

Basic stuff i know, but at least some tangible evidence that he's improving

Leiva

SUAREZ IS BACK

Mitch Connor

Liverpool have had their allocation at Old Trafford cut from 3900 to 2100 - due to behavior of fans on previous visits. Not sure if exact reasons have been given.

mike65

Sounds like a Cold War style tit for tat expulsion!

Dr Galen

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

If anyone here has ever read Moneyball they'll know a thing or two about how statistics can paint an insightful picture into onfield sporting performance - assuming painstaking care and attention is put into defining what constitutes every data point.

Example: Winger picks up the ball on touchline with opposing midfielder and fullback closing in. He somehow manages to skin both of them and reach the byline at pace delivering a devastating ball into the box.

A) Defender has two onrushing strikers and keeper has been beaten by the quality of the cross and it hits off him and goes in;
The cross takes all opposition defenders out of the equation and striker on the back post taps it back across for his partner to tap it in;

In either scenario, the winger gets no statistical credit for the goal, eventhough his play created it. In the A scenario, the defender gets a statistical error debited against him even though there was nothing he could have personally done to prevent the situation. The fullback and midfielder who were skinned by the winger and directly culpable for the defensive breakdown suffer no such statistical debit.

In my opinion, the winger should be credited with an assist in this case, and there should be an "error" statistic available to mark against the fullback and midfielder, as that would become one of the most valuable and telling statistics recorded on a season by season basis.



I don't believe statistics in football are meaningless, particularly team stats. But there is definitely a huge flaw in how stats capture credit and debit for the scoring and concession of goals. I also have no doubt that really smart people could revolutionise this aspect of football if they were incentivised to do so. Pass completion is another area that could be remodelled statistically - there should be a way to capture intent and risk in the numbers.

I'm happy to stand corrected on this, but I think it's the case that in football, an awful lot of the statistical stuff is kept behind closed doors. What we get to see from people like Opta is really only the tip of the iceberg. Several clubs, (us, Chelsea, Spurs and I think City) are also employing their own number crunchers, who again keep things on the quiet. I'd imagine the analysis goes deeper than just the stuff we get to see.

If you compare this with baseball, but lots more stats are out in the open. An average Joe like us, can look up all sorts of things. They've also had a pretty long head start on football as well, so thus, they have done a lot of the work that you are talking about LL.

It's funny when I see people here, on other forums and in general railing against the use of stats in football. It's pretty much using carbon copies of the arguments that people put forward when fighting stats in baseball and you can see what has happened there.

If you haven't read Moneyball, I'd recommend it. There are several other good books about this sort of thing. I'll maybe try put a few together if people want to have a gander.

Mr Alan

Cutting the allocation of certain away supporters because of their actions the previous season is not small time in the slightest

LuckyLloyd

Dr Galen wrote: »

I'm happy to stand corrected on this, but I think it's the case that in football, an awful lot of the statistical stuff is kept behind closed doors. What we get to see from people like Opta is really only the tip of the iceberg. Several clubs, (us, Chelsea, Spurs and I think City) are also employing their own number crunchers, who again keep things on the quiet. I'd imagine the analysis goes deeper than just the stuff we get to see.

It certainly should be the case.

Dr Galen wrote: »

If you compare this with baseball, but lots more stats are out in the open. An average Joe like us, can look up all sorts of things. They've also had a pretty long head start on football as well, so thus, they have done a lot of the work that you are talking about LL.

Well that is true in that the concept of a standardised box score and recording of same stretched back to the beginning of the 20th century. But better statistics only started appearing when obsessives took the time to sit down, take tapes of games and record what was actually happening as opposed to what had always been recorded.

Dr Galen wrote: »

It's funny when I see people here, on other forums and in general railing against the use of stats in football. It's pretty much using carbon copies of the arguments that people put forward when fighting stats in baseball and you can see what has happened there.

"Stats are meaningless, you know how someone is doing by actually watching the game". Meaningless stats are meaningless, and stats of indisputable facts aren't illustrative. What people over here don't get about stats in American sports is that the best stats (and why they are such a great analysis tool) are data points based off subjective assessments of what happened in a game. An error in baseball is a subjective assesment of whether a play should have been made. A drop in football is a subjective assesment of whether a receiver should have caught the ball. In soccer, an assist is given to the second last attacking player to touch the ball.

In my above example, if every goal was actually looked at and a judgement made on which contribution was the one which made the play, then you would make stats vital - because you would actually be watching what happens, and recording it. The thing is, no-one has the time to watch every Premiership game. And in the absence of insightful statistical standards to judge performance, we enter a world where mere shards of information (goals packages / truncated highlights) are used to determine what is actually happening in the games we don't see. How often does a perception of a lower team player performing brilliantly ultimately hinge on the one opinion piece from sports journalist X? Think about this - I bet everyone here has had a conversation after you see player Y score a goal on Sky Sports News that goes 'he's having a great season', and it turns out that you and the other person in the conversation believe that because you read the same piece of journalism on the player / team concerned a couple of months ago.

Dr Galen wrote: »

If you haven't read Moneyball, I'd recommend it. There are several other good books about this sort of thing. I'll maybe try put a few together if people want to have a gander.

That and The Blind Side. For any sports enthusiast they stand as a great example of the power of new ideas.

Id imagine utd will get another cut next year.

Its a race to zero.

gafferino

so anyway......

Any updates on Stevie G? Was he injured or rested? I know Kenny said he should be good for Spurs, just wondering was there any update?

Crazy Horse 6

gafferino wrote: »

so anyway......

Any updates on Stevie G? Was he injured or rested? I know Kenny said he should be good for Spurs, just wondering was there any update?

Did'nt hear tbh. Long term i think we are going to have to cope without the guy on a regular basis. He seems to have an endless stream of injuries i'm afraid.:(

PHB

A couple of infractions later....

*** Ignore feature, easy to use, use it ***

mormank

Sappy404 wrote: »

It depends where you look. OptaJoe was saying yesterday that Opta's definition for assists is different from the Premier League's definition.

All you can say for sure is that assist statistics don't prove much and should be taken with a pinch of salt.

I'm looking at the leagues own website. No where better to look. Both Liverpool and Charlie Adam playin that league so I'll let them constitute what an 'assist' is if it's all the same to everyone here. Besides it doesn't matter. I try to give Adam some well earned credit and all I get is responses about how the stats are wrong. Typical! :rolleyes:

mormank

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

If anyone here has ever read Moneyball they'll know a thing or two about how statistics can paint an insightful picture into onfield sporting performance - assuming painstaking care and attention is put into defining what constitutes every data point.

Example: Winger picks up the ball on touchline with opposing midfielder and fullback closing in. He somehow manages to skin both of them and reach the byline at pace delivering a devastating ball into the box.

A) Defender has two onrushing strikers and keeper has been beaten by the quality of the cross and it hits off him and goes in;
The cross takes all opposition defenders out of the equation and striker on the back post taps it back across for his partner to tap it in;

In either scenario, the winger gets no statistical credit for the goal, eventhough his play created it. In the A scenario, the defender gets a statistical error debited against him even though there was nothing he could have personally done to prevent the situation. The fullback and midfielder who were skinned by the winger and directly culpable for the defensive breakdown suffer no such statistical debit.

In my opinion, the winger should be credited with an assist in this case, and there should be an "error" statistic available to mark against the fullback and midfielder, as that would become one of the most valuable and telling statistics recorded on a season by season basis.



I don't believe statistics in football are meaningless, particularly team stats. But there is definitely a huge flaw in how stats capture credit and debit for the scoring and concession of goals. I also have no doubt that really smart people could revolutionise this aspect of football if they were incentivised to do so. Pass completion is another area that could be remodelled statistically - there should be a way to capture intent and risk in the numbers.

I agree 100% with the sentiment of this post. Of course stats don't mean everything. They do mean one thing tho, Adam has been directly involved in ten of our league goals this season, that'smore than one 3rd and that's not including goals scored. The same bat is being used to beat downing with (unfairly tho it has to be said).

Grayditch

Winning a peno that is converted is definitely an assist, in my mind.

The sexual tension in here in unreal.

Must be the lead up to Valentines..




edit, only seen your note now PHB

mormank

PHB wrote: »

A couple of infractions later....

*** Ignore feature, easy to use, use it ***

Ok cool, on the ignore list you go so!!

K-9

Anfieldindex is pretty good for stats for Liverpool players and opponents. You'll get more than just looking at goals scored or assists anyway, a more rounded picture. Plus as Dr. Galen said, clubs have more than the Opta stats.

Dr Galen

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

It certainly should be the case.

I'd hope so too.

Well that is true in that the concept of a standardised box score and recording of same stretched back to the beginning of the 20th century. But better statistics only started appearing when obsessives took the time to sit down, take tapes of games and record what was actually happening as opposed to what had always been recorded.

I'm just getting into baseball, but it amazes me the depth that some of those obsessive types are going to with regards to the stats that they are putting together, and making public.

I think you are right, in that, we don't have that level of amateur statistician really in football, yet..

"Stats are meaningless, you know how someone is doing by actually watching the game". Meaningless stats are meaningless, and stats of indisputable facts aren't illustrative. What people over here don't get about stats in American sports is that the best stats (and why they are such a great analysis tool) are data points based off subjective assessments of what happened in a game. An error in baseball is a subjective assesment of whether a play should have been made. A drop in football is a subjective assesment of whether a receiver should have caught the ball. In soccer, an assist is given to the second last attacking player to touch the ball.

Couldn't agree more. It's actually quite far from cold hard stats that many people think it is. There is quite a bit of subjectivism in the whole thing, which makes it interesting imho and far from predictable. It throws up all sorts of quirks.

That and The Blind Side. For any sports enthusiast they stand as a great example of the power of new ideas.

I really hated that film

Sappy404

Another jersey design doing the rounds today. I'm not sure how legit it is obviously, but it's quite nice. I don't think it was posted before.

murpho999

Sappy404 wrote: »

Another jersey design doing the rounds today. I'm not sure how legit it is obviously, but it's quite nice. I don't think it was posted before.

Think it's fake as even though the old Liverbird crest is nicer than the current YNWA one I can't see LFC changing it as it means there'll be no reference to Hillsborough any more.

Knex*

Looks like the Welsh rugby jersey or somthing.

http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/426337_2578837108604_1184672115_32183701_417241435_n.jpg

Vanolder

Say nothing lads, I heard a whisper that Suarez is back.....

Come on !!!!!!

mada999

mormank wrote: »

Sure but by old money standards we would only have 28 points in the league too. We don't use old money anymore, that's why it's referred to as old money!

if he fookin passed the ball instead of taking stupid shots then he might have had more assists..... /greedy

Tusky

murpho999 wrote: »

Think it's fake as even though the old Liverbird crest is nicer than the current YNWA one I can't see LFC changing it as it means there'll be no reference to Hillsborough any more.

The old crest is so much nicer. The new one is a monstrosity of design. Trying to fit everything thats even slightly related to the club onto the crest is idiocy.

~Rebel~

Tusky wrote: »

The old crest is so much nicer. The new one is a monstrosity of design. Trying to fit everything thats even slightly related to the club onto the crest is idiocy.

Hopefully now that the legal necessity for all the additions is gone, we might see a return to something simpler. The liver-bird and the hillsborough flame would be sufficient.

Sasquatch76

~Rebel~ wrote: »

Hopefully now that the legal necessity for all the additions is gone, we might see a return to something simpler. The liver-bird and the hillsborough flame would be sufficient.

Totally agree.

As for the pic above, I know it's a mock-up, but I quite like it

mayordenis

Bellamt was signed premanently right?

http://www.premierleague.com/en-gb/clubs/profile.squads.html/liverpool

has "loan in" beside him there.

Sappy404

The collar looks quite like the '08-'10 jersey, especially at the back. I'd also be surprised if the Hillsborough flame was removed, though I do like the simplified crest.

djPSB

http://www.theanfieldwrap.com/2012/01/charlie-adam-great-expectations/

Good article on the positive and negative aspects of Adam's game.

manual_man

What's the deal with Liverpool only getting 2100 tickets for the United game. Are United even allowed do that? Seems like an unfair advantage

amiable

mayordenis wrote: »

Bellamt was signed premanently right?

http://www.premierleague.com/en-gb/clubs/profile.squads.html/liverpool

has "loan in" beside him there.

He's definitely a free transfer.

2 year contract as far as I Know

murpho999

manual_man wrote: »

What's the deal with Liverpool only getting 2100 tickets for the United game. Are United even allowed do that? Seems like an unfair advantage

Even with 3900 wouldn't the home team still have an unfair advantage with over 70,000 Mancs in OT!

Really, giving priority to home support is just ridiculous!

manual_man

murpho999 wrote: »

manual_man wrote: »

What's the deal with Liverpool only getting 2100 tickets for the United game. Are United even allowed do that? Seems like an unfair advantage

Even with 3900 wouldn't the home team still have an unfair advantage with over 70,000 Mancs in OT!

Really, giving priority to home support is just ridiculous!

Ok. No need to shout :rolleyes:

I thought you had to give a certain percentage to away supporters

seanwhite20

manual_man wrote: »

Ok. No need to shout :rolleyes:

I thought you had to give a certain percentage to away supporters

Yeah there is a certain percentage allocation, but the allocation can be cut on health and safety grounds which is what has happend. Its done in consultation with the police AFAIK. I think because suarez will be back they might be fearing the worst.

amiable

manual_man wrote: »

Ok. No need to shout :rolleyes:

I thought you had to give a certain percentage to away supporters

Back to win some friends?:D

manual_man

amiable wrote: »

manual_man wrote: »

Ok. No need to shout :rolleyes:

I thought you had to give a certain percentage to away supporters

Back to win some friends?:D

You can never have too many negritos :pac: