ASM Clermont Auvergne v Ulster, Sat 21st Jan 2012, Stade Marcel Michelin, 3:40pm

bleg

Jess16 wrote: »

Well that's my point, there needs to be more accountability for inconsistent and shoddy decisions. There could have been an entirely different result tonight if Pearson had have gotten his call against Clermont right in the first place

It's a part of sport.

GerM

They don't call him Blind Dave for nothing. I'm pretty sure I could list 10 or so significant incidents that went against Ulster incorrectly. The Hines holding incident was the TJ call. Pearson has always been a serious homer and makes the easy call. A few missed calls are forgiveable but he was incorrect in so many today. The knock on by BJ was not only a penalty but arguably a yellow. Winds up as a penalty against Ulster due to sheer frustration. Have to feel for Ulster. No side wants to face them.

They're a force in European rugby now. Good to have you back.........




Bout bloody time. :P

bleg

Just rewatched Hines there. Definite yellow but sure look, he got away with it.

Podge_irl

Jess16 wrote: »

I never said they were and am not suggesting they should be. But I do think referees would be less likely to make such bad decisions if they were held more accountable for their mistakes, in the same way that players are

They are. Refs are assessed after every game and move in and out of panels based on their performance. The whole thing is just less public then with players. People also notice far less when a ref is dropped.

phog

GerM wrote: »

They don't call him Blind Dave for nothing. I'm pretty sure I could list 10 or so significant incidents that went against Ulster incorrectly. The Hines holding incident was the TJ call.

Am I reading you correctly - are you saying what Hines did should not have been punished? I thought it should have been a card despite he probably costing his team a try.

BTW, it was a great piece of one man defence, pinning/holding 3 Ulster lads to the ground.

danthefan

phog wrote: »

GerM wrote: »

They don't call him Blind Dave for nothing. I'm pretty sure I could list 10 or so significant incidents that went against Ulster incorrectly. The Hines holding incident was the TJ call.

Am I reading you correctly - are you saying what Hines did should not have been punished? I thought it should have been a card despite he probably costing his team a try.

BTW, it was a great piece of one man defence, pinning/holding 3 Ulster lads to the ground.

A card, would you stop. Don't want to watch rugby anymore if that's a card.

phog

danthefan wrote: »

A card, would you stop. Don't want to watch rugby anymore if that's a card.

Why not? He lay on top of one, held two more, all off the ball.

Edited to add - you can get carded for a professional foul, wa s that not a professional foul in keeping 3 defending players away from their defensive role?

Brewster

phog wrote: »

danthefan wrote: »

A card, would you stop. Don't want to watch rugby anymore if that's a card.

Why not? He lay on top of one, held two more, all off the ball.

Edited to add - you can get carded for a professional foul, wa s that not a professional foul in keeping 3 defending players away from their defensive role?

Far more cynical than what Touhy did, that's for sure.. It was one of many decisions that went against Ulster yesterday. It wasn't the worst however, how Pearson did not give a penalty for James slapdown I'll never know..... Touhy was sinbinned in an instance yet far worse infringements happened that went unpunished.

irishbucsfan

It's a shame that Ulster werent reffed fairly, but its the natute of sport.

For any team to win in the SMM it'll take a massive performance coupled with a bit of luck, you can almost guarrantee the ref will give 50/50s against you, and even some 100/0s against you. The answer is to do your best to give him as few opportunities to do that as possible.

I have sympathy for referees at any level. There is a subconscious natural affinity for the home team and its impossible to overcome. Rather than bitching about it, we should see it for what it is, a part of the game. Every single referee is guilty of it, especially a certain Irish/French international referee!

Clermont are a top side and are a scary proposition. Every team will be watching the draw today dreading the possibility of a semi final in the SMM. On some sick level I hope Leinster are faced with that prospect, I love the city and would relish the challenge if being the first away team to win there in a lonnng time. I don't mean to sound arrogant, but outside of Leinster or Toulouse I can't see any other team managing it.

I hope Leinster/Munster/Ulster can avoid each other as much as possible and I hope for the possibility of an all Irish final. It would make living in England a little more enjoyable for me when you all descend on Richmond in May!

GerM

phog wrote: »

Am I reading you correctly - are you saying what Hines did should not have been punished? I thought it should have been a card despite he probably costing his team a try.

No.

phog

GerM wrote: »

No.

No, I'm not reading you correct or that it shouldn't have been a penalty

chris_d

what an atmosphere at that stadium as well. it was brilliant on t.v.. for the ulster lads to hold there own there was a proud achievement, im sure they are gutted.

performance wise, again i thought Terblanche was a class act. St Ruan was calm and collected for most of the game too, things were more solid with him and Humph on the pitch. Humpries had a decent game too, some dodgy defence aside. Good to see the boards Paddy bashing continuing unabaited. Overall i thought he mixed the bad with the good, but mostly it was good. he missed that pass to the overlap alright, but the french defence was on him very quickly, and i can forgive him for being a bit rusty on the quick passes. better to take it into contact than risk an intercept there. still ulster's best 12 by a distance.

Another big game from the pack as well. i missed the lineout mistake at the end because i was too busy shouting at the officials and punching things. sore bodies today im sure.

It seemed like a very quick 80 minutes.

great performances from all the provinces again it seems. i didnt see the leinster or munster games. please take it into the six nations.

mfceiling

I have to say i thought hines was going to get a card.

Cynical to say the least.
If clermont had scored on the blindside while ferris was unable to make a tackle i would have had a fit.

It's the same as a player chasing a kick and getting a sly shoulder as he follows up or a backline move where a player blocks a tackler by running a deliberate dummy line to take out an oppposition player.

justsomebloke

As a Leinster fan I blame the irfu for not letting us keep Hines last year

durkadurka

He was some boyo last night.

The only thing that could have caused more distraction and mayhem would be if they sent angelina Jolie on or something .

MungBean

durkadurka wrote: »

He was some boyo last night.

The only thing that could have caused more distraction and mayhem would be if they sent angelina Jolie on or something .

Fair enough if he's being subtle and getting away with it but last night he was about as subtle as a Rhino, just makes a joke of the game imo. He was let make a mockery of the game by an incompetent ref who hadnt the balls to do his job. Pity because Ulster could very well have got the result had it been a fair contest.

He should be cited and banned. Clermont should be fined for allowing him to piss on the good name of the Heinekin cup and the ref should be under investigation for match fixing.

GerM

Watching the game again, Hines was ridiculous. Half the rucks that he wasn't in, he just walked over to the pillar or first man in the line and obstructed them without subtlety making sure nobody could come around the ruck. He knew what he could get away with and just kept going.

justsomebloke

GerM wrote: »

Watching the game again, Hines was ridiculous. Half the rucks that he wasn't in, he just walked over to the pillar or first man in the line and obstructed them without subtlety making sure nobody could come around the ruck. He knew what he could get away with and just kept going.

Hines is fantastic at knowing what he can and can't do and he is a complete pain in the ass to play against but that is what makes him a great player and missed at Leinster. Browne although good as the "muscle" he is no Hines.

MungBean

justsomebloke wrote: »

Hines is fantastic at knowing what he can and can't do and he is a complete pain in the ass to play against but that is what makes him a great player and missed at Leinster. Browne although good as the "muscle" he is no Hines.

He's a good player but what we seen last night wasnt him being a great player it was a really bad ref. To my eyes he did several things that he could have been binned for. One of which would not only have left his team down a man but cost them a try. If the ref had of done his job and Hines cost his team a try and the game would you still be calling him a great player ? I think not.

justsomebloke

MungBean wrote: »

He's a good player but what we seen last night wasnt him being a great player it was a really bad ref. To my eyes he did several things that he could have been binned for. One of which would not only have left his team down a man but cost them a try. If the ref had of done his job and Hines cost his team a try and the game would you still be calling him a great player ? I think not.

But he didn't, in the end he made a play that got them the try to win the group. The difference between the great and the good is the decisions they take. At the moment because of his actions they have the potential of a home quarter

GerM

MungBean wrote: »

He's a good player but what we seen last night wasnt him being a great player it was a really bad ref. To my eyes he did several things that he could have been binned for. One of which would not only have left his team down a man but cost them a try. If the ref had of done his job and Hines cost his team a try and the game would you still be calling him a great player ? I think not.

The point is that Hines realised what the ref was picking up on (nothing) so played it. The only time he was caught was when the TJ called it. The referee turned a blind eye to that one too. That's good play. Infuriating, but great to have someone who can adjust like that. As it stands, he created a try for his team rather than costing them.

MungBean

justsomebloke wrote: »

But he didn't, in the end he made a play that got them the try to win the group. The difference between the great and the good is the decisions they take. At the moment because of his actions they have the potential of a home quarter

That doesnt make him a great player though, whether he was picked up or not the action was the same. Your calling the refs failures Hines achievements. Hines made a decision to risk being sent off while they were on the try line. Thats incredibly poor decision making, if he was pinged everyone here to a man would be calling it as that. Getting away with it doesnt automatically make it a good decision.

A great player wouldnt have jeopardised the game like that. They would have done their best to score the try not gamble and hope he doesnt get pinged for a yellow card offence and ruin his teams chances.

justsomebloke

MungBean wrote: »

Your calling the refs failures Hines achievements.

Pretty much. He read the ref as he so often does and now his team are in the QF when it should have been ulsters game.

There are 18 people on the pitch that aren't on you team knowing how to plat them all gives you a bigger advantage

MungBean

GerM wrote: »

The point is that Hines realised what the ref was picking up on (nothing) so played it. The only time he was caught was when the TJ called it. The referee turned a blind eye to that one too. That's good play. Infuriating, but great to have someone who can adjust like that. As it stands, he created a try for his team rather than costing them.

My point is that doing something because the ref isnt pinging it doesnt make a great player. He wasnt being subtle, he wasnt being sneaky he was blatantly infringing. Any other ref wouldnt have let him do that to the degree he did last night. So its not so much a testament to his greatness as it is to the incompetence of the ref I think.

MungBean

justsomebloke wrote: »

Pretty much. He read the ref as he so often does and now his team are in the QF when it should have been ulsters game.

There are 18 people on the pitch that aren't on you team knowing how to plat them all gives you a bigger advantage

You say "Read the ref" like he knew he wasnt going to be pinged though. He didnt, he took a chance. Doing that on the try line isnt the same as doing it on the halfway line. If he's pinged he's in the bin and the try scoring opportunity is gone.

I know a player will do whatever they can get away with but that doesnt necessarily make them great players for doing so. To do it while under the scrutiny of a strict ref is great play, to do it while a ref is ignoring infringements is nothing special. He was lucky not to get caught in my view, not great for knowing he wouldn't get caught (which he couldnt have known).

Digifriendly

Hines was holding 2 Ulster players illegally at a ruck after the ball was away for which he was penalised. He should have received a yellow card for each. 2 yellows = 1 red! I know this isn't possible for a referee to do but he should have been given a yellow at least.

Fireball07

I'm sorry but:

Brewster wrote: »

Munster are not going to get five points this evening. Just can't see it.

shuffol wrote: »

Munster are playing with 3 2nd rows, a fly half who cant run and 2 centers who cant pass, if I were Brian McLaughlin I'd be booking the bus to the Aviva

Hopefully he didn't waste valuable resources





Ulster were robbed tbh, and put in an excellent performance. One team I'd want to have avoided in the quarter-final. It should be a cracking match though.

irishbucsfan

MungBean wrote: »

My point is that doing something because the ref isnt pinging it doesnt make a great player. He wasnt being subtle, he wasnt being sneaky he was blatantly infringing. Any other ref wouldnt have let him do that to the degree he did last night. So its not so much a testament to his greatness as it is to the incompetence of the ref I think.

Much of a muchness.

Was Neil Back a great player or was it just that every ref who watched him happened to be incompetent?

MungBean

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Much of a muchness.

Was Neil Back a great player or was it just that every ref who watched him happened to be incompetent?

I dont know enough of Neil Backs exploits to say whether he was a great player or not but I think it a tad disappointing that people equate poor refereeing for player talent. Should diving catch on in rugby its this kind of attitude that will power it.

Should I make sure to point that out next time Lawes tries to break someone's ribs should the ref happen to miss it ?. "Ease up fellas the ref didnt spot it, other guy went off, great play by Lawes giving his team an advantage like that" ?

Point being theres a line between actual talent and getting away with foul play. Great players can be great without breaking the rules because they are naturally talented. This may include towing the line of whats acceptable and playing the ref. But poor refereeing does not make a player great and last night wasnt Hines being a great player it was the referee being absolutely shíte.

irishbucsfan

"Foul play" of that kind is a part of rugby and if you don't think it should be then you are unfortunately in a very very small minority of rugby fans. In fact as an openside flanker, I think your ideal refereeing would put me out of a much beloved hobby.

It's completely different to foul play of a dangerous nature which needs to be watched and penalised very stringently.

I do think there is an irony here however, in that (and I might be getting you mixed up here) you were arguing against Warburton's card, and now you're arguing on behalf of stricter refereeing! haha