What is going on with UCDSU??

Sl!mCharles

._. wrote: »

...Why did they close it down then? To improve their public image?

In any case, anecdotal evidence like you just posted isn't evidence at all.

Christ, just giving my own experience of the place.
You seemed sure in your previous post that only one person had ever step foot in there.

You are wrong.

Chucky the tree

Blut2 wrote: »

Whats the rational behind this? Surely it couldnt hurt to have the accounts be public, let people see where exactly their money is going. If its mostly on useful things (welfare services etc) rather than things like class rep party trips then I cant see it being a problem.

Make it alot harder to skim money when you publish the accounts. Also makes it alot hard to play the hard up routine when you are spunking your money off on sh1te left, right and centre.

Inhousejoke

There was a protest yesterday against the shutting down of the copy bureau and the sacking of the two women who worked there. It was probably the biggest protest in UCD for a good few years, looking at around ~300 people. It was called by Save UCD SU Staff and Services . While a lot of people were angry about closing the copy bureau, I reckon a lot of people were there as well to vent at the union in general, which has been getting a lot of flack lately, and rightly so.

Here's a video when the protest arrived in the student centre. The sabbats did quite possibly the worst thing they could have done, and tried to lock the doors to the SU corriodor! (how they thought that that wouldn't piss people off, I have no clue). Cue a bit of a "storming" of the corridor ( it was fairly relaxed to to be honest ), then Pat came out and started speaking, at which point I had to leg it to meet up with a lecturer.

And at the rally at the lake before we marched down to the student centre, some of the restaurant staff (who are facing privitisation) were there wearing their kitchen gear and showing solidarity. ****ing amazing day.

Chucky the tree

Have the protesters come up with a solution as to how to pay for it? It's easy to whinge about it, anyone can do that, but coming up with solutions to solve it would also help.

delta_bravo

How was it running a loss of 40k per annum?

I have been a big critic of the SU over the years but if they're 1m in debt and they have a venture that is running an annual loss and is fairly obsolete nowadays with online resources it was bound to go.

OneOfThem Stumbled

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Have the protesters come up with a solution as to how to pay for it? It's easy to whinge about it, anyone can do that, but coming up with solutions to solve it would also help.

Couldn't the SU just get rid of the Equality Officer (formerly Women's Officer)/ Irish Officer/ or Ents Officer (each of which are paid circa €30-40 K and boom! Problem solved?

gradlife

I have read somewhere(don't quote me on this) that they are reducing the number of sabbats next year.

Dwaegon

Pacifist Pigeon wrote: »

Students should not have to pay for the Union fee up front. It should be voluntary.

Then people would not pay it until they needed the SU, but it would be too late as the union would be impossible to sustain without getting that budget per annum. Imagine losing the welfare officer two months into the year because not enough people had opted in to the SU???

Pacifist Pigeon wrote: »

UCDSU officers' salaries should also be cut (big time). Some Sabbats don't deserve ~€20,000 a year for the amount of "work" they do.

Ah yes, because you follow each sabbat around all day seeing every little thing they do, do you?

Pacifist Pigeon wrote: »

Also, term limits should be introduced. Two years max (maybe less!!) for any sabbatical officer.

2 year max term is fairly standard in most SU's as far as I know. Not sure of UCDSU policy as it's not really nailed down in the constitution.

Pacifist Pigeon wrote: »

Another idea would be to have two "union" bodies competing against each other to provide better services.

So split the funding between two organisations to both do the same job?
...I don't think that will work! I think it would be better to have a single organisation, otherwise the friction between the two could hinder their effectiveness and damage their credibility...

Dwaegon

OneOfThem Stumbled wrote: »

Couldn't the SU just get rid of the Equality Officer (formerly Women's Officer)/ Irish Officer/ or Ents Officer (each of which are paid circa €30-40 K and boom! Problem solved?

Where in the hell are you getting these figures???

(Link or gtfo)

Fad

OneOfThem Stumbled wrote: »

Couldn't the SU just get rid of the Equality Officer (formerly Women's Officer)/ Irish Officer/ or Ents Officer (each of which are paid circa €30-40 K and boom! Problem solved?

Ents officer is paid, the rest of them aren't paid anything.

WeeBushy

And anyway, all that would do is postpone the problem for a year. You'd then have to get rid of another sabat the year after to keep the copy bureau, and another the year after... hang on a sec... we could be on to something here

OneOfThem Stumbled

Dwaegon wrote: »

Where in the hell are you getting these figures???

(Link or gtfo)

Because I remember seeing the positions advertised with the associated yearly wage. Sabbatical officers are treated as paid employees.

Bing: http://www.collegetribune.ie/index.php/2011/01/ucdsu-sabbatical-officers-hold-open-meeting/

Maybe you can get a better source but I did only do 30 seconds googling. It is a year old.

Dwaegon

OneOfThem Stumbled wrote: »

Because I remember seeing the positions advertised with the associated yearly wage. Sabbatical officers are treated as paid employees.

Bing: http://www.collegetribune.ie/index.php/2011/01/ucdsu-sabbatical-officers-hold-open-meeting/

Maybe you can get a better source but I did only do 30 seconds googling. It is a year old.

How did you see those positions advertised like that when
a) only one of them is actually paid;
b) all of them are filled by open elections;

Please do more than 30 seconds googling if you're going to try answer a question!

OneOfThem Stumbled

Dwaegon wrote: »

How did you see those positions advertised like that when
a) only one of them is actually paid;
b) all of them are filled by open elections;

Please do more than 30 seconds googling if you're going to try answer a question!

So the Ents officer, by himself, is paid €100,000

Sigh.

I have known someone who was Vice-president, was paid somewhere in the region of 30 k, maybe a bit less. The Sabbatical Officers are meant to be filling full time jobs. That's why they are called sabbatical officers (they aren't allowed be in education for instance). ffs why do you think there is so much competition for the positions?

Not all the positions are filled by direct election although most obviously are. There are a couple of positions that are completely unpaid but these are in the minority and may be just part-time positions. I really can't be arsed to research it any more deeply - but by all means feel free to do so yourself!

:pac:

Edit: besides which, even though I only read 3 lines of the article I cited, this one did kindof jump out at me: "Each sabbatical officer is currently paid a €400 a week salary by the Students’ Union." What's the point of googling for you if I even have to read it for you too?

Dwaegon

OneOfThem Stumbled wrote: »

So the Ents officer, by himself, is paid €100,000

Sigh.

I have known someone who was Vice-president, was paid somewhere in the region of 30 k, maybe a bit less. The Sabbatical Officers are meant to be filling full time jobs. That's why they are called sabbatical officers (they aren't allowed be in education for instance). ffs why do you think there is so much competition for the positions?

Not all the positions are filled by direct election although most obviously are. There are a couple of positions that are completely unpaid but these are in the minority and may be just part-time positions. I really can't be arsed to research it any more deeply - but by all means feel free to do so yourself!

:pac:

Edit: besides which, even though I only read 3 lines of the article I cited, this one did kindof jump out at me: "Each sabbatical officer is currently paid a €400 a week salary by the Students’ Union." What's the point of googling for you if I even have to read it for you too?

The positions I was referring to were the three from this post:

OneOfThem Stumbled wrote: »

Couldn't the SU just get rid of the Equality Officer (formerly Women's Officer)/ Irish Officer/ or Ents Officer (each of which are paid circa €30-40 K and boom! Problem solved?

Besides, €400 X 52(weeks) is €20,800, so you are clearly pulling that €30-40K out of your a$$.

Don't think I don't know how Student Unions work, I have been elected to and served a term on an Exec for a year!

OneOfThem Stumbled

Dwaegon wrote: »

Besides, €400 X 52(weeks) is €20,800, so you are clearly pulling that €30-40K out of your a$$.

Ah, now we're just getting into semantics. You forgot I prefixed my statement with 'circa'.

My original point still stands. If the SU Copying Centre is a priority then paid positions in the SU can be cut. It is self evident that there are multiple paid positions in the SU. I'm stressing 'if'. There are alternatives to its services.

Dwaegon

OneOfThem Stumbled wrote: »

My original point still stands. If the SU Copying Centre is a priority then paid positions in the SU can be cut. It is self evident that there are multiple paid positions in the SU. I'm stressing 'if'. There are alternatives to its services.

Which positions?

You already mentioned Ents, but there would be absolute uproar over that if they removed that position! You saw what happened when the ball last year almost didn't happen! No other positions provide that service, wheras there are alternate facilities to print/photocopy on campus.

errlloyd

Lads the sabbatical positions are the ones that take a year off. There are 5 of those.

Welfare
Education
President
Campaigns and Communications
Ents

What could you get rid of, probably the fourth, C&C. That officer is almost a project officer, he has a couple of jobs like running class rep training and essentially running any major campaigns, but otherwise his main job is looking for jobs. Which is why you can kinda cut him.

Traditionally its meant to run the campaigns for other officers, like ents creates an event, C&C promotes it, but mostly Ents and Welfare self promote through the use of their "crews" these didn't exist before, but now are pretty much happy to do lacky work for self satisfaction, CV building, guestlisting or to boost themselves in.

None of you seem to know a whole lot about the SU, please do ask questions, but please do respect the answers from those of us who've been around a while (and I'm only a third year). I know Fad and people have been pretty involved and know UCD politics pretty well.

Fad

errlloyd wrote: »

What could you get rid of, probably the fourth, C&C. That officer is almost a project officer, he has a couple of jobs like running class rep training and essentially running any major campaigns, but otherwise his main job is looking for jobs. Which is why you can kinda cut him.

Looking for jobs or proposing motions at council in advance of election time to make him (And his manifesto) look better :P

Riamfada

Dwaegon wrote: »

Which positions?

You already mentioned Ents, but there would be absolute uproar over that if they removed that position! You saw what happened when the ball last year almost didn't happen! No other positions provide that service, wheras there are alternate facilities to print/photocopy on campus.

Okay a few points. I think most college students human beings would rather see the copy print staff keep their jobs if it meant cancelling the UCD Ball. If you are saying that you would rather have a big party & spend 5k on pens & 15k on a party to Wexford then see Jackie retained you are what is wrong with the UCDSU.

Riamfada

Dwaegon wrote: »

No other positions provide that service, wheras there are alternate facilities to print/photocopy on campus.

Do societies not provide numerous & varied entertainment events?

Dwaegon

Riamfada wrote: »

Okay a few points. I think most college students human beings would rather see the copy print staff keep their jobs if it meant cancelling the UCD Ball. If you are saying that you would rather have a big party & spend 5k on pens & 15k on a party to Wexford then see Jackie retained you are what is wrong with the UCDSU.

Completely agree! However, a lot of people that are college students, may not have fully evolved into human beings yet!

There is a certain sense of self-entitlement that first years enter college with, in relation to the social aspect of college that Ents provides, and if you take that away, it could seriously damage the image and effectiveness of the SU

Riamfada wrote: »

Do societies not provide numerous & varied entertainment events?

Yes, but the societies are run by students, which companies would be reluctant to get heavily involved with if it meant they might lose money. Plus, one event like the UCD ball going badly could financially cripple any societies that tried to have one.

Also these events are mainly aimed at their specific members. If I had to join every society in college in order to go to the same nights out as my friends, getting dozens of emails a week would make me want to blow my brains out!

Foxtrol

Dwaegon wrote: »

Yes, but the societies are run by students, which companies would be reluctant to get heavily involved with if it meant they might lose money. Plus, one event like the UCD ball going badly could financially cripple any societies that tried to have one.

Also these events are mainly aimed at their specific members. If I had to join every society in college in order to go to the same nights out as my friends, getting dozens of emails a week would make me want to blow my brains out!

The event doesn't have to be the scale of the UCD ball to cripple a society. An Auditor of a society could not even take the risk of booking one of the smaller Ents bar acts as one of them flopping would destroy a years budget. Even back in the hey day of societies (pre-semesterisation, pre-recession, pre-night club promoters) any events which involved bringing in a decent sized act would be co-promoted with Ents due to the financial risk.

Riamfada wrote:

Okay a few points. I think most college students human beings would rather see the copy print staff keep their jobs if it meant cancelling the UCD Ball. If you are saying that you would rather have a big party & spend 5k on pens & 15k on a party to Wexford then see Jackie retained you are what is wrong with the UCDSU.

This is a very simplistic and immature way of looking at this issue. This it is not a keep X, get rid of Y issue. In a perfect world every business that is losing money could be bailed out and continue to keep jobs and run at a loss but this is the real world and you have to face cold hard facts. You simply cannot justify subsidising a non-vital entity that is making a 40k a year loss, especially one that is currently adding very little value to it's stakeholders in order to save a few jobs. This action should have been taken years ago but no recent SU leadership had the balls to do it.

steddyeddy

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Have the protesters come up with a solution as to how to pay for it? It's easy to whinge about it, anyone can do that, but coming up with solutions to solve it would also help.

I dont get that people keep saying this. The idea is simple and plain to see and excuse me if its a bit mad but here goes. The su is in debt to the degree that makes me want to know more about the activites of certain members. it wasnt copy print that did this but the su. The student union needs to change drastically and there needs to be a proper investigation into where the money all went because a lot doesnt add up.

AdamD

steddyeddy wrote: »

I dont get that people keep saying this. The idea is simple and plain to see and excuse me if its a bit mad but here goes. The su is in debt to the degree that makes me want to know more about the activites of certain members. it wasnt copy print that did this but the su. The student union needs to change drastically and there needs to be a proper investigation into where the money all went because a lot doesnt add up.

40k a year of it was the copy print...

steddyeddy

AdamD wrote: »

40k a year of it was the copy print...

Understood but at least that was providing an essential service. We dont know why the su is a million in debt and that needs to be answered.

Fad

steddyeddy wrote: »

Understood but at least that was providing an essential service. We dont know why the su is a million in debt and that needs to be answered.

It wasn't.

It was providing a service that no longer really needed to exist.

It was providing a service that provided lecturers with an excuse to not to learn how to use (Or just simply not use) software that is paid for by the university (Why the college still uses Blackboard is beyond me, moodle is free to use, has a better UI and whatnot, but that is a complaint for another thread).

It was providing a service that really doesn't need to exist. If you need to print notes, learn how to print on the college printers, it's not hard. Printed notes are hardly a necessity either...

It was providing a service that mainly just served a limited number of students. I've never heard anyone from a faculty other than arts using it.

I could go on...

I do agree with the statement about needing to know why the SU is in debt. How the hell they managed to get so far into the red without realising is beyond me.

I will however state that shouting at the current sabbats is largely pointless, I sincerely doubt much if any of this debt was accrued by them. They are trying to sort it out. I dont dont like or trust some of the current ones, but I do know that they're at least trying to sort things out.

Oasis_Dublin

Fad wrote: »

It wasn't.

It was providing a service that no longer really needed to exist.

It was providing a service that provided lecturers with an excuse to not to learn how to use (Or just simply not use) software that is paid for by the university (Why the college still uses Blackboard is beyond me, moodle is free to use, has a better UI and whatnot, but that is a complaint for another thread).

It was providing a service that really doesn't need to exist. If you need to print notes, learn how to print on the college printers, it's not hard. Printed notes are hardly a necessity either...

It was providing a service that mainly just served a limited number of students. I've never heard anyone from a faculty other than arts using it.

I could go on...

I do agree with the statement about needing to know why the SU is in debt. How the hell they managed to get so far into the red without realising is beyond me.

Mostly agree with this.

Fad wrote: »

I will however state that shouting at the current sabbats is largely pointless, I sincerely doubt much if any of this debt was accrued by them. They are trying to sort it out. I dont dont like or trust some of the current ones, but I do know that they're at least trying to sort things out.

Humm, this year's sabbats still went on a 10,000€ piss up at the start of the year, and are getting paid 22,000 for their year's work, bar Ents. That's over 100,000 in expenditure. Accounts should be made public and the current president should have to answer questions; he has been in the SU for a number of years, as well as B&L (I think) Soc, so he was well aware that they finances were not healthy when he made promises in his manifesto last year.

kkumk

Riamfada wrote: »

Okay a few points. I think most college students human beings would rather see the copy print staff keep their jobs if it meant cancelling the UCD Ball. If you are saying that you would rather have a big party & spend 5k on pens & 15k on a party to Wexford then see Jackie retained you are what is wrong with the UCDSU.

I'm as anti-SU as the next person, I think a lot of the sabbats are complete tools (with the exception of Breslin) and I do think that maybe Welfare and Education could be combined, or as another poster said, that C&C could be cut.

I think it's truly awful that the people who worked in the copi-print lost their jobs without warning and so close to Christmas, but to be completely honest, there is no way to justify a deficit of 30-40k per year.

This is my fourth year as an Arts student in UCD, I've studied 4 different subjects, and never once has a lecturer left notes for any of my classes in the SU printing bureau. In fact, for my first 3 years, I had no clue what it was even for. Now this is most likely ignorance on my part, but I'm sure there are hundreds more students like me, who have never used the service at all. This is demonstrated by the huge losses made on an annual basis. Its unrealistic to continue a service which is running a 40k deficit and that only benefits a minority of students and lecturers. While this may not have been the SU's best ethical decision, it is certainly one of their better financial ones.

As for the argument that a sabbat position should be cut to pay for the SU Bureau, I would agree if the print service were at least breaking even, but they're likely to continue to run even larger losses over the next few years, so a short-term fix like firing a sabbat, is not going to save them in the long run.

steddyeddy

Fad wrote: »

It wasn't.

It was providing a service that no longer really needed to exist.

It was providing a service that provided lecturers with an excuse to not to learn how to use (Or just simply not use) software that is paid for by the university (Why the college still uses Blackboard is beyond me, moodle is free to use, has a better UI and whatnot, but that is a complaint for another thread).

It was providing a service that really doesn't need to exist. If you need to print notes, learn how to print on the college printers, it's not hard. Printed notes are hardly a necessity either...

It was providing a service that mainly just served a limited number of students. I've never heard anyone from a faculty other than arts using it.

I could go on...

I do agree with the statement about needing to know why the SU is in debt. How the hell they managed to get so far into the red without realising is beyond me.

I will however state that shouting at the current sabbats is largely pointless, I sincerely doubt much if any of this debt was accrued by them. They are trying to sort it out. I dont dont like or trust some of the current ones, but I do know that they're at least trying to sort things out.

I have no problem with copi print closing in the curent climate but I dont accept that the su got into that debt unless something dodgy was going on.