Starbucks

Ludo

Abdiel Ambitious Sky wrote: »

I'd be seriously concerned about the flagrant breach of the planning process here. That's three developments without any attempt to apply for planning permission.
Arguably, the Princes St and Opera Lane stores would be likely to get planning, even retrospectively. However, I very much doubt whether the rumoured starbucks on St. Patrick Street would ever get planning in such a prominent site.
http://www.eveningecho.ie/cork-news/starbucks-set-to-open-another-cork-store/

Why on earth wouldn't it get planning? An empty until which was a mobile phone store becomes a Starbucks..big deal. Should it be left vacant and turn into another eyesore on that street?

ongarboy

Abdiel Ambitious Sky wrote: »

I'd be seriously concerned about the flagrant breach of the planning process here. That's three developments without any attempt to apply for planning permission.
Arguably, the Princes St and Opera Lane stores would be likely to get planning, even retrospectively. However, I very much doubt whether the rumoured starbucks on St. Patrick Street would ever get planning in such a prominent site.
http://www.eveningecho.ie/cork-news/starbucks-set-to-open-another-cork-store/

How did it's former use as a mobile phone shop add appeal and character to the street that a cafe won't? Late night opening every night until 10pm will appeal to tourists, non drinkers, those who need to kill a few hours in the evening, teenagers etc and don't want to or can't head to a pub and it will enliven the street.

Nonoperational

All this about the "aesthetics" of the city being ruined and the poor independent coffee shops... Don't buy it for a second. If the independents are worried, open later and make sure the product is better. I'd certainly prefer a well maintained Starbucks to an empty unit.

flo8s967qjh0nd

Ludo wrote: »

Why on earth wouldn't it get planning? An empty until which was a mobile phone store becomes a Starbucks..big deal. Should it be left vacant and turn into another eyesore on that street?

The city planners and development plan protects the 'retail' nature of St Patrick's Street which, baring exceptional circumstances prevents retail becoming fast food, restaurant, coffee shop, etc. It's a change of use. Not my view. It's provided for in the development plan.

flo8s967qjh0nd

Nonoperational wrote: »

All this about the "aesthetics" of the city being ruined and the poor independent coffee shops... Don't buy it for a second. If the independents are worried, open later and make sure the product is better. I'd certainly prefer a well maintained Starbucks to an empty unit.

I agree. I don't care where people buy their over priced coffee. I do care when people and businesses think they can break the law. Doesn't matter if you're independent or multi national.

Corholio

Its amazing that opening a bit later and not having an empty unit overrides actual planning laws and regulations for some people.

At least an empty unit still has an opportunity to not be a Starbucks

kcb

Nonoperational wrote: »

All this about the "aesthetics" of the city being ruined and the poor independent coffee shops... Don't buy it for a second. If the independents are worried, open later and make sure the product is better. I'd certainly prefer a well maintained Starbucks to an empty unit.

Spot on! As one of the more vocal "spokesperson" for the independents, I think it's funny that Idaho Cafe doesn't open at all Sunday or Monday and only 8:30 in the morning and closed early evening.

lisasimpson

if independent coffee shops have a problem them open later and give the customer what they want...its great to have the option apart from a pub to go too after 5.30/6 during the week. Helps keep people in town a little longer
last two times I was in town have notice the startbucks on opera lane seems to have hit costa

namloc1980

Abdiel Ambitious Sky wrote: »

The city planners and development plan protects the 'retail' nature of St Patrick's Street which, baring exceptional circumstances prevents retail becoming fast food, restaurant, coffee shop, etc. It's a change of use. Not my view. It's provided for in the development plan.

Empty derelict units are so much better.

SpaceTime

namloc1980 wrote: »

Empty derelict units are so much better.

There's fairly high demand for units on Patrick's St.
The empty units at the top are down to a paused and NAMA-stuck project for a shopping centre that is now starting to move ahead again.

It's very unlikely you'd have it empty for long.

There are existing food outlets on the street though : Burger King, Gloria Jeans and Le Chateau.

I agree with having a plan. Look at O'Connell Street in Dublin if you want to see the results of allowing random stuff to go in. You've what should be one of Ireland's best shopping destinations lines with takeaways and arcades while being used basically as a giant bus stop.

I don't agree with squeezing competition out. It's high time the local coffee places realised there's a market after 5:30pm, places to plug in laptops, charge phones etc etc.

Starbucks and Costa are both pretty poor at food compared to many of the local places too, so in that sense I can't see much risk of lack of competition.

What Starbucks do isn't really unique, it's just about consistency, convenience, comfort and meeting a demand that already exists.

There's a well established coffee culture in Cork and I really think it's more than capable of holding its own. It's going to have to adapt though.

lisasimpson wrote: »

if independent coffee shops have a problem them open later and give the customer what they want...its great to have the option apart from a pub to go too after 5.30/6 during the week. Helps keep people in town a little longer
last two times I was in town have notice the startbucks on opera lane seems to have hit costa

Costa down there needs a major revamp. The whole interior is looking shabby. It was nice but it's worn out.

I went in recently and I thought it just looked bad.

A bit of competition might wake them out of their slumber too.

I love coffee roasters but, they really need more seats! An upstairs would be fantastic.

flo8s967qjh0nd

Looks like the rumours are correct. I don't think the planners have a very big book, but it should be thrown at Starbucks.
http://www.eveningecho.ie/cork-news/planning-irregularities-see-starbucks-ordered-to-stop-work-on-new-store/

flo8s967qjh0nd

SpaceTime wrote: »

I agree with having a plan. Look at O'Connell Street in Dublin if you want to see the results of allowing random stuff to go in. You've what should be one of Ireland's best shopping destinations lines with takeaways and arcades while being used basically as a giant bus stop.

To those advocating a planning free-for-all to fill vacant space, I give you the absolute disaster that is Dublin's O'Connell Street.

Ludo

Not advocating a free for all. But can't see an issue with a cafe up there nothing else like that up that end of Patrick street that I can think of and not like it lowers the tone of the area.

Douglas Eegit

Ludo wrote: »

Not advocating a free for all. But can't see an issue with a cafe up there nothing else like that up that end of Patrick street that I can think of and not like it lowers the tone of the area.

You're right.. Street facing..
1x Cafe - Gloria Jeans around half way up.
2x News Agents - Half way and river end
2x Book Store - Top and Bottom
3x Fast Food - Top, middle and middle
6x Phone Shop - Top, Middle, Middle,Middle, Bottom, Bottom

I should point out that i don't live in the city and haven't done so for years so things may have changed

lostinsuperfunk

I think MrTea's point is that Starbucks think that they are above the law when it comes to planning permission.

But that end of Patrick Street is a bit desolate after the shops close and while I'm not a fan of Starbucks, I think it'll add a bit of life to the place, and it's probably better than having another phone shop there. Also, there are loads of empty units on Patrick Street and they're not being filled quickly. There are no other coffee shops within 100-200 metres apart from M&S so I don't think it'll impact the independents. Coffee Roasters is safely across the river, and I think they have a different clientele (coffee lovers ) anyway.

ongarboy

More from the Irish Times below.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/starbucks-ordered-to-stop-work-on-new-cafe-1.2313615

3 breaches in a row is poor form on Starbucks side. I welcome their arrival to any neighbourhood (as long as they don't over-saturate an area) as they add a vibrancy and choice, later city centre options ( other than the pub) and mark that an area is progressive and a desirable place to be part of but all businesses need to follow the due diligence of the planning process otherwise it's a free for all and we're back to the dreadful mistakes of the past.

JohnK

I'd love to know their thinking behind not bothering with the proper planning; surely there must be some kind of logic to it. Does anyone know, can they be forced to close the existing shops if they fail to get the proper planning at this stage or is their worst case just to pay a fine and continue to stay open?

SpaceTime

It's very unfair on the small cafés in Cork that have been driving a very vibrant coffee culture for many years before Starbucks even heard of the place.

Those companies have had to comply with very strict planning laws and are not in the same kind of position to raise vast amounts of money for cafe build outs.

Until this is regularised, I won't be visiting Starbucks.

I'm all for innovation and competition but not by riding roughshod over local democracy.

SpaceTime

JohnK wrote: »

I'd love to know their thinking behind not bothering with the proper planning; surely there must be some kind of logic to it. Does anyone know, can they be forced to close the existing shops if they fail to get the proper planning at this stage or is their worst case just to pay a fine and continue to stay open?

As far as I'm aware, they can actually just declare it an unauthorised development and it will have to be returned to its previous state : a retail store.

Whether or not they go that far is another question.

Bogger77

SpaceTime wrote: »

It's very unfair on the small cafés in Cork that have been driving a very vibrant coffee culture for many years before Starbucks even heard of the place.

To claim a vibrant culture of anything retail\food sector in Cork is wrong,
if you walk from Patrick's bridge to corner of Grand Parade at 9 o'clock at night, how many businesses are open?
Burger King, la Chateau, Abra, Oriental restaurant above the boots and McDonalds, that's.

I see tourists walking down the principle street in Cork, and find no where to get food or coffee, walk down the principle street in any European city at 9 o'c at night, and there's more options for a sit down drink, and a bite to eat, not fast food.

there's too many empty units on the street, or low value shops (Phone, e-cig's etc), and shops closed at 6oc, to make it a nice street. It doesn't matter if starbucks are on the street, there's very few alternatives to arrange a meeting with someone, other than pubs on the middle parish.

SpaceTime

There's about 150m of investment currently on going in the city centre.

Overriding planning laws is a really bad idea. There are appropriate locations for Starbucks, but there are completely normal ways of applying for proper planning for these things too.

ofcork

What?

SpaceTime

A glitch there with mobile posting. that ended up in the wrong forum!

ofcork

I hope they get this resolved as others have said it would be good to see something open apart from a chemist after 6 on that end of the street.

SpaceTime

To claim that every city in Europe has bustling late night cafes is also wrong.

Cafe / bar is interchangeable in much of Europe and very few places have a late evening coffee house culture.

Things stay open late in Spain in particular but in France and elsewhere major streets are like absolute ghost towns after business hours and on Sundays.

I'd rather see more of a cafe/bar culture emerging here and that is happening with the likes of the Electric, Cafe Gusto etc etc

Bacchus

Also, I think it's wrong to say Cork doesn't have enough options to go eat in the evening. Whatever about no cafes being open, there's plenty of places to eat. The main difference with continental Europe is that we don't have the weather to have restaurants open up on to the streets so it looks much quieter. There's also plenty of options to sit down and have a drink. Every village in Ireland has plenty of options to sit down and have a drink.

The bit that is missing is a few casual cafe options and that's what Starbucks is filling. I'd rather see independent places do this instead but Starbucks took the initiative. My hope would be that 3 is the limit in terms of Starbucks around the city center and other cafes take up the challenge to offer alternatives to pubs and restaurants as a place for people to meet up in the evening. A big problem they face though is getting their name out there as a place to go for a coffee and light bite in the evening. Cafe Gusto is one place that I think does this well. Starbucks is instantly recognizable though and tourists will flock to it. If you're aiming for the Irish market then, you still have to compete with the massive pub culture (and Starbucks).

SpaceTime

I spent a bit of time living in suburban London and oddly enough, despite a lot of options, most of them closed at 6!

You literally couldn't get a coffee (including at Starbucks, Costa, Pret, Cafe Nero and Harris and Hoole (actually owned by Tesco) after 6pm!!!

There were a couple of poncy 'gastro pubs' who would give you dagger looks for ordering just a coffee and a load of sit-down or take out ethnic restaurants.

Cork's actually a good bit better in terms of food options in the evening. Lots of casual dining stuff.

ongarboy

Confirmed for Douglas Village SC along with TK Maxx per today's Echo.

http://www.eveningecho.ie/cork-news/tk-maxx-and-starbucks-set-for-douglas-village-shopping-centre/

ofcork

Just heard on news now lidl are now planning to open in wilton on the old esso/coffee place!

moyners

ofcork wrote: »

Just heard on news now lidl are now planning to open in wilton on the old esso/coffee place!

Right across the road from a brand new Aldi! I wonder will that impact on them getting planning?