Tail docking illegal?

TooManyDogs

I know this topic has been done to death but as far as I was aware it's not illegal in Ireland to dock a dog's tail. I know the Veterinary Council of Ireland deems it to be a mutilation and it's members would be in breach of the Guide to Professional Behaviour if they did dock tails.

However today at training someone mentioned the litter of pups on TV3s Ireland AM that the ISPCA confiscated because they had tails docked (with rubber bands :mad: ) and it was illegal. The person said it had been illegal in Ireland for a few years but I'm really not sure it is the case.

Has anyone got any links to the law having been changed?

biko

According to Louth SCPA it's not
www.louthspca.ie/attachments/article/162/Tail%20Docking.pdf
Aug 2011

Unfortunately, the procedure is not illegal in Ireland but cannot be carried out by a veterinary practitioner

This guy says it is

The cropping of ears and docking of tails and any procedure which is considered the mutilation of animals is illegal in Ireland.

http://cromcruaichkennel.jimdo.com/about-me/

Now I'm confused too

andreac

Docking is not illegal in the south of Ireland at the moment. Vets have been instructed not to carry this procedure out but it is not illegal yet.

TooManyDogs

That's the problem I've been finding, people think it's illegal because the vets refuse to do it but that's just because they're own guidelines ban it not because it's the law. But now I'm totally confused because this person is totally convinced that it's illegal, "you can't show them or anything", I pointed out that there are tons of docked dogs in the show ring here and she reckoned they were docked before the law changed. She had no answer when I pointed out the puppy classes also had docked dogs.

scudzilla

So if Vet's can''t do it who does then??

Our boxer has a full tail and we love it, pain in the hole when she gets excited and whips ya with it but i think it looks cool.

When we have a litter we will not be docking any

andreac

Toomanydogs, thats because there is no law!! Not in the Republic anyway.

I own and show rottweilers and know many many people involved in showing and breeding dogs that are docked. They are 100% allowed to show a docked dog in Ireland and people still dock. Trust me, i know the score on this as im involved in showing dogs and know many people who breed as well.

There is a new law coming in up North this year from April, but its not coming in down here.

TooManyDogs

andreac wrote: »

Toomanydogs, thats because there is no law!! Not in the Republic anyway.

It takes me so long to type that you were there ahead of me

I figured I couldnt have missed such a huge change of law.

Thanks guys

Cookie_Monster

while there is no specific law banning it surely it must fall under animal cruelty laws?

Wibbs

*conjecture* Could it be that some methods might be construed as cruelty and might be prosecutable(rubber bands etc), versus a vet doing it under medical conditions which would be OK(even if they choose not to do it as TooManyDogs pointed out)? That's where the grey area may come in?

Solair

I don't really see why people would do that anyway. Dogs tails are part of their balancing mechanisms and I would assume it's rather painful too.

Cherry Blossom

22.—(1) If any operation to which this section applies is performed on any animal without the use of an anaesthetic so administered as to prevent any pain during the operation, that operation shall be deemed for the purposes of the Principal Act to be an operation which is performed without due care and humanity.
(2) This section applies to any operation with or without the use of instruments which involves interference with the sensitive tissues or the bone structure of an animal (including the dehorning of an animal that involves such interference), other than—
...

(e) an operation referred to in the Schedule to this Act.

Excepted Operations

1. Any experiment duly authorised under the Cruelty to Animals Act, 1876.
2. The rendering in emergency of first aid for the purpose of saving life or relieving pain.
3. The docking of the tail of a dog under one month old.

If the pups were over one month old it is illegal.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1965/en/act/pub/0010/print.html#sec18

kildare.17hmr

The rubber bands they use are the ones used to castrate lambs, it stops the blood flow and it falls off after a few days. Docking is not cruel

ISDW

As far as I'm aware, that case was because of the method used - rubber bands - and the age of the pups.

TooManyDogs

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

If the pups were over one month old it is illegal.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1965/en/act/pub/0010/print.html#sec18

That could be the crux of the matter, I think they were over a month old

http://www.ispca.ie/rescue_cases/view/pups_with_docked_tails_rescued_by_ispca

You know yourself, I didn't like to keep saying this girl was wrong without having proof to hand myself so I left it in the end

Cherry Blossom

kildare.17hmr wrote: »

The rubber bands they use are the ones used to castrate lambs, it stops the blood flow and it falls off after a few days. Docking is not cruel

Since you've brought it up . . .

(c) the application of a rubber ring or other device to a lamb within seven days after its birth for the purpose of constricting the flow of blood to the tail of the lamb

This is one of the exceptions to the act, and it very specificly applies to lambs only - meaning this method of tail docking is illegal in any other species.

ABajaninCork

Cosmetic docking of dogs is not supported by Veterinary Ireland and the practice is no longer taught to Irish veterinary students.

As an interesting note: It is illegal to show dogs in the UK whose tails have been cosmetically docked after 6th April 2007 (Animal Welfare Act 2007). Cruft's support this and are extremely vigilant to ensure this is done.

Sadly, the Irish legislation is nowhere near as extensive as it is in the UK. I know the government have more pressing matters to attend to, but I do wish the same kind of laws could be passed here.

andreac

ABajaninCork wrote: »

Cosmetic docking of dogs is not supported by Veterinary Ireland and the practice is no longer taught to Irish veterinary students.

As an interesting note: It is illegal to show dogs in the UK whose tails have been cosmetically docked after 6th April 2007 (Animal Welfare Act 2007). Cruft's support this and are extremely vigilant to ensure this is done.
Sadly, the Irish legislation is nowhere near as extensive as it is in the UK. I know the government have more pressing matters to attend to, but I do wish the same kind of laws could be passed here.

Thats not entirely correct. You can still show at shows in the UK where the isnt an entrance fee charged to the public so you can still show at a lot of shows in the UK with a docked dog even if it was docked after April 2007. Also you can show at shows in N.Ireland Scotland too with docked dogs after this date.

Discodog

Anyone docking a dog of any age by means of the "rubber band" would be open to a possible charge of cruelty. All that has to be proved is that the animal experienced "unnecessary suffering". This can be proved because the only painless way to remove a tail is under anaesthetic which can only be administered by a Vet. Anyone can try putting a tight rubber band on their finger to get an idea of whether it is painful or not.

Whilst it is against accepted veterinary practice I am certain that there are still Vets who will dock whilst docking is still technically legal. I would expect that whenever (or if ever) we get the proposed Animal Welfare Bill it will outlaw docking by any method.

Bullseye1

I've started to see quite a few breeds that would normally be docked but were fully intact. They look so different.

Discodog

Bullseye1 wrote: »

I've started to see quite a few breeds that would normally be docked but were fully intact. They look so different.

Especially Boxers with that long skinny tail wagging at 60mph . My little Lab/Collie really makes one realise how important a tail is. His nose hits the ground & the tail starts going like a windscreen wiper !

Bullseye1

Yeah seen quite a few Boxers and a couple of Rotties and one Weinmaraner.

JustAThought

Controversial question!! At the risk of being snarled to death by the usual suspects here ; there are also issues between the kennel clubs here & in the Uk/ abroad over it. While the Irish Kennel Club is still ok for you to show docked dogs; you cannot show them at events where the public are allowed & pay fees into, in the UK. This means many .
There has been a lot of messing about within some breeds categories up at the IKC where dogs who are NOt docked, as per IKC breed standard are actively marked down; the same dogs have WON in Cruffs; which is very ridiculous .

A lot of working dogs have/ have had their tails docked; prevents them breaking it or damaging it out in the " wilds" following a hunt. This is typically done by the breeder at 3 or 4 days of age / "old"

I know that dogs use the tail like a rudder for balance & steering; as well as expressing happy : ) you see some terribly sad dockings particularly with boxers some of whose tails are cut right into their bums leaving nothing at all; v sad to see

Discodog

JustAThought wrote: »

A lot of working dogs have/ have had their tails docked; prevents them breaking it or damaging it out in the " wilds" following a hunt. This is typically done by the breeder at 3 or 4 days of age / "old"

I agree with the Vets that this is a invalid argument. I suspect that there have been very few cases of a working dog breaking it's tail - unless it gets shut in a door. Docking is purely cosmetic & there will always be an element who don't like progress.

None of us should be surprised at any confusion within the national Kennel Clubs who have a long history of ignoring dog welfare when it comes to cosmetic appearance.

EDIT: The following is from a VICAS Press Release concerning docking working dogs. Mr Rossiter is the chairman of VICAS (The Veterinary Ireland Companion Animal Society):

Mr Rossiter states that “there is no scientific evidence to show that
undocked working dogs damage their tails any more than undocked non-working dogs. A seven
year study at the University of Edinburgh Royal (Dick) School of Veterinary Studies showed
insufficient evidence of statistical significance to suggest a positive association between taili
njuries and undocked tails (Darke et al, 1985). In other words the risk of tail injury is equal in
working dogs compared to non-working dogs and thus there is no argument to say that an
exception should be made for working dogs only – all dogs whether working or not are at equal
risk to tail injury. This refutes any argument which may be put forward to make allowances for
the „prophylactic‟ docking of certain working breeds so as to reduce the incidence or severity of
future tail injuries. Furthermore most of the dogs from a litter of the „working breeds‟ that have
traditionally been docked would end up as pet dogs in a family home setting”

http://www.veterinaryireland.ie/index.php/news/news-archives

Solair

I always think it looks a bit pathetic to see a docked dog wagging its bum to compensate for lack of a tail. They look totally unbalanced to me.

kildare.17hmr

Discodog its not that working dogs break their tail they cut it and it gets snagged in thick heavy cover, if a hunting dog gets hurt Badly it may not hunt cover again so Its not cosmetic its ptactical. your commenting on something you know nothing about

Wibbs

kildare.17hmr wrote: »

your commenting on something you know nothing about

Presumably the seven
year study at the University of Edinburgh Royal School of Veterinary Studies was also commenting on something they know nothing about too?

Coyotes, wolves and foxes all hunt in heavy cover regularly. No bowl of pedigree chum for them on tap. Yet evolution didn't select for lack of tail, indeed great big bushy tails they have.

ASIDE/ Which tbh is something I've wondered about in the past, why have many working dog breeds been bred for short hair on the tails if this tail damage was indeed such an issue? You would think longer hair would be protective?

ISDW

I'm probably going to shock some people now:)

I'm not saying I agree with tail docking, but can understand the argument about working dogs, if it is done humanely by a vet at the early age. What do people who disagree with it even on those grounds think about the removal of rear dew claws on dogs - when the reason given is to prevent them catching on things and injuring the dog? Not as common as tail docking, but it does happen, and in fact I have a dog that needs to be neutered, and will be having his rear dew claws removed at the same time.

Sorry, I probably should have started a new thread on it, mods if you want to split it and do that, please do.

Wibbs

ISDW wrote: »

Not as common as tail docking, but it does happen, and in fact I have a dog that needs to be neutered, and will be having his rear dew claws removed at the same time.

Actually happened to my childhood dog, an elkhound. He tore one of his dew claws. God it was gory and he was in a lot of pain.:(

ISDW

Wibbs wrote: »

Actually happened to my childhood dog, an elkhound. He tore one of his dew claws. God it was gory and he was in a lot of pain.:(

Was that front or rear? Usually front ones are left on, but if a dog happens to have rear ones, most people get them removed.

Wibbs

Rear ISDW. IIRC Wasn't very long either, but long enough to get caught :eek::(

DBB

kildare.17hmr wrote: »

Discodog its not that working dogs break their tail they cut it and it gets snagged in thick heavy cover, if a hunting dog gets hurt Badly it may not hunt cover again so Its not cosmetic its ptactical. your commenting on something you know nothing about

Why aren't setters' and English pointers' tails docked? The argument I've heard is that they don't work cover which, according to every rough shooter I've asked, when they think about it, they realise is simply not true. Indeed, my OH owned add shot over English Setters which he tells me would come home with blood all over their tails from working cover.
Also, and I know this information was casually obtained, my vet works in the middle of serious pheasant country, and sees many working gundogs if different breeds. It's her opinion that cutting the long hair from the tail is a far more effective strategy... And she sees plenty of docked springers with bloody stumps.

ISDW, my comment about dew claws is this. They are vestigial, and serve little, or no purpose (though I think the thinking is that they help spread pressure to prevent dogs sinking into soft snow? Do they really? I've always found it hard to believe, but I'm very much open to correction!).