New county council building

St Senan

Ian7 wrote: »

I'm torn on this issue. In one way it makes me sick to think that if I had to go on a professional development course to further improve myself I would be forking out through the nose and the other side of me thinks that when you have elected town councilors that never went to college or even left the town they are elected in, maybe it's not such a bad thing. But then I think how they could possibly learn anything from such short outings. Makes me worried really.

Would it make sense to have specific roles for councilors and elect people with relevant qualifications to that role? Take Enniscorthy for example, How many of the councilors have any suitable knowledge regarding sustainability & energy conservation, waste & recycling, street planning, IT issues and online strategies, tourism, social integration of non-nationals and community development. These are all very relevant and pressing issues and if none of our councilors are adequate or competent enough to tackle such issues and have to travel abroad to attend a 5 hour conference on such things then its pretty obvious why we are where we are and why we have such a monstrosity of a building (now reportedly very cold to work in) instead of that money being pumped into a sham of a hospital right beside it. F**k. I need a lie down.

A few years ago when 1 of our elected councillors was running for his town seat he went out canvassing in 1 area for 2 nights in a row he went 2 housing estates and on the 2nd night a resident of 1 of the estates said to this council member that nobody from these estates or area can vote for him as he is running for a seat on Enniscorthy town council and that he has been out canvassing in Ferns for 2 nights in a Row.

And this guy now has a say on how the town is run.:o:o:o:o

noddyone2

Waste of money, eyesore too.

donalg1

chieftan65 wrote: »

So your quiet happy to pay increased rates and taxes and new household charges so the council can afford to pamper themselves with new state of the art offices while people lie on trollies in the corridors of the hospital across the road? others are faced with the weekly choice of paying the mortgage, buying food or heating their homes? but cant do all 3. But then thats real life in ireland today including wexford, a life it seems you and the pampered few in the council have no concept of.

I assume you work in the building yourself then given the fact you have such an understanding of how pampered they are up there and how great the offices are. Can members of the public access the offices and see for themselves just how luxurious there working environment is, I wouldnt mind seeing this for myself.

Cantona's Collars

donalg1 wrote: »

I assume you work in the building yourself then given the fact you have such an understanding of how pampered they are up there and how great the offices are. Can members of the public access the offices and see for themselves just how luxurious there working environment is, I wouldnt mind seeing this for myself.

Just walk in the front door and admire the vast open space of the atrium with 3 or 4 desks in the entire space.The offices can be seen from the outside of the building,the whole facade is glass.Pretty standard offices but other rooms are way over the top with tens of thousands been spent on a couple of pieces of furniture.Needless to say the public don't have access to those areas.
Had this waste been done away with or reduced in size then we wouldn't have so much of a problem with it,plus the whole thing was horrendously overpriced at around €47 million.

donalg1

zerks wrote: »

Just walk in the front door and admire the vast open space of the atrium with 3 or 4 desks in the entire space.The offices can be seen from the outside of the building,the whole facade is glass.Pretty standard offices but other rooms are way over the top with tens of thousands been spent on a couple of pieces of furniture.Needless to say the public don't have access to those areas.
Had this waste been done away with or reduced in size then we wouldn't have so much of a problem with it,plus the whole thing was horrendously overpriced at around €47 million.

The post I was referring to was saying the staff are sitting in luxurious offices in the lap of luxury so I was asking did he have first hand experience of these offices or was it simply conjecture.

The corridor itself is awful grey pointless waste of space, as for the desks I think they are just front desks for each department so obviously there is no need to put 100 desks in that space just for the sake of it when 1 is sufficient, best thing would've been to reduce the size of the corridor, but that is something for the architect to answer I suppose.

As for the final cost of the building being way over the original budget, I think that can be attributed to the contractors responsible for the construction of it and their inability to construct it on time and within budget.

Cantona's Collars

donalg1 wrote: »

As for the final cost of the building being way over the original budget, I think that can be attributed to the contractors responsible for the construction of it and their inability to construct it on time and within budget.

And making a complete balls of the job,spoke to some of the guys who ended up finishing the building and the list of what they had to fix was crazy.The original contractor simply saw €€€'s and threw the building up.

donalg1

zerks wrote: »

And making a complete balls of the job,spoke to some of the guys who ended up finishing the building and the list of what they had to fix was crazy.The original contractor simply saw €€€'s and threw the building up.

Heard the same thing, cut corners and rushed the job ultimately went bust and left it about 70% finished, same as the library in town sure.

Ian7

noddyone2 wrote: »

Waste of money, eyesore too.

I don't know if it's an eyesore. It's quite modern and sleek looking and I've seen worse looking new buildings but that doesn't take from the fact it's construction is an ever increasing sore point amongst the cash strapped public and anybody who has to use the nearby hospital. Are we all in general agreement that the money should have been spent on the hospital first? Just curious to know if we would all be proud and shouting about this building if the country hadn't gone bust? It's an interesting thought.

Also, just found this for any spec freaks out there.

Materials:
- An outer skin of low iron glass structurally bonded to umber anodized aluminium framing
- Walls are clad internally and externally in 1.8m high slabs of Irish Blue Limestone on stone hanging system
- Public area floors are 1.2m square slabs of Irish Blue Limestone with underfloor heating
- Internal floors are Junkers European Oak
- Punched windows are Ipasol performance glass
- Vents are Silberstar semi-reflective performance glass
- Internal joinery work is European Oak – solid timber and veneered boards
- External terraces are limestone gravel and Irish Blue Limestone walls
- Hard landscaping is bespoke concrete paving with natural aggregates
- External timberwork is Siberian Larch

Sustainable features:
- Double façade for energy efficiency and environmental control
- Floor plates optimised for natural ventilation and natural lighting
- Exposed concrete slabs for thermal mass
- BMS for overall building control and energy efficiency
- Biomass boiler
- Evacuated solar tubes for water heating
- Grey water recycling
- Locally sourced materials including Irish Blue Limestone

yobr

Ian7 wrote: »

Just curious to know if we would all be proud and shouting about this building if the country hadn't gone bust? It's an interesting thought.

Indeed it is. The answer is probably not but it seems an easier sell for people to believe the media and attack certain sectors of worker than to examine their own pattern of voting over the last 30 years. Now, leaving the last election aside, how many times has Wexford returned two FF TD's in the last 30 years?

Ledger

I have to agree with the extravagance aspect. Jesus like, you could fit the Tholsel in NR in that atrium, with a bit left over.

The ESB must've been laughing all the way to the bank when they saw the size of the place, the light and heat bills must be out of this world.

Any time I go in there to the tax office, (the only reason most people go there) I'm walking across that atrium thinking, why?

But like was already said, if the banks didn't have us in this mess in the first place would we be complaining at all?

Judgement Day

Ledger wrote: »

I have to agree with the extravagance aspect. Jesus like, you could fit the Tholsel in NR in that atrium, with a bit left over.

The ESB must've been laughing all the way to the bank when they saw the size of the place, the light and heat bills must be out of this world.

Any time I go in there to the tax office, (the only reason most people go there) I'm walking across that atrium thinking, why?

But like was already said, if the banks didn't have us in this mess in the first place would we be complaining at all?

Agree with almost everything you say except for the last sentence. This is media claptrap! For years many of us have been shouting about waste and nobody listened. I still remember that turkey - Noel Dempsey - belittling somebody daring to query the spending of €50 million on something -since scrapped. Some people have short memories.

The purchase of the Thornton Hall Prison site was at the height of the boom and many, many people criticised it for being OTT but nobody listened - so don't lump us all in with the herd - please!!!:mad:

€45 million spent on the new prison (including consultancy fees) and not a brick laid - it will all end in tears. Remember where you heard it first!

Ledger

Judgement Day wrote: »

Agree with almost everything you say except for the last sentence. This is media claptrap! For years many of us have been shouting about waste and nobody listened. I still remember that turkey - Noel Dempsey - belittling somebody daring to query the spending of €50 million on something -since scrapped. Some people have short memories.

The purchase of the Thornton Hall Prison site was at the height of the boom and many, many people criticised it for being OTT but nobody listened - so don't lump us all in with the herd - please!!!:mad:

€45 million spent on the new prison (including consultancy fees) and not a brick laid - it will all end in tears. Remember where you heard it first!

Fair point. What I mean is we would be complaining, myself included. But would we be as loud about it as we are now? I doubt it, because it wasn't as big of a problem then.

yobr

Judgement Day wrote: »

For years many of us have been shouting about waste and nobody listened.

The problem is that shouting was not enough because as a nation in '97, '02 and 07, we continued to vote the same way.

Judgement Day

yobr wrote: »

The problem is that shouting was not enough because as a nation in '97, '02 and 07, we continued to vote the same way.

Speak for yourself. I voted Green only in the election before last as I'm a natural Green supporter - even though the local candidate was a complete plank, and in the latest General Election I voted solely for Mick Wallace. I haven't voted for FF/FG/SF since I first voted in the late 1970s - 1977 I think? I take no responsibility whatsoever for the current state of the country as I was out of the country for the first part of the Celtic Tiger and in a menial job when I returned.

Divorce Referendum

Ledger wrote: »

I have to agree with the extravagance aspect. Jesus like, you could fit the Tholsel in NR in that atrium, with a bit left over.

The ESB must've been laughing all the way to the bank when they saw the size of the place, the light and heat bills must be out of this world.

Any time I go in there to the tax office, (the only reason most people go there) I'm walking across that atrium thinking, why?

But like was already said, if the banks didn't have us in this mess in the first place would we be complaining at all?

Not so. If you had have read ians post you would have seen the sustainable features of the building. The heating is supplied by a huge biomass boiler in the basement nothing to do with the esb. The wood chip would be sourced nearby keeping these companies in work and is equivalent in output to the most effecient gas condensing boilers. It also emits no CO2.

The building is naturally ventilated. This involves using motorised actuator window openings which are controlled by sensors which monitor co2 and temperatures in the building (thats the BMS mentioned below).

The exposed concrete that so many people dont like provides an important fuction by absorbing the warmth during the day and is cooled at night by flushing the building with natural ventilation.

The double skin facade can also help in keeping the building warm in our climate. The solar gain within the cavity may be circulated to the occupied space to offset heating requirements.

Hot water for the kitchens and toilets is supplied by the biomass but also supplemented by the solar water heaters.

Grey water recycling refers to water which has been expelled from sinks in the kitchens and bathrooms which is treated and used again.(saves on water costs)

In regards tot he lighting you can half your electricty bill by using a photocell sensor connected to the lights. This turns off the lights when there is adequate daylighting in the room. Timeout sensors can also be used in corridors and toilets to only allow the lights on when someone is there. I am thinking from the profile of the project that good quality light fittings were used which makes a huge difference to energy usage.

I would say the esb are rather disappointed to be honest. I would make a fairly starightforward assumption that the old county hall with its ancient walls, old oil heating system and lack of bms actually cost alot more to run.

This building is actually a fine example of how a building should be built with regards to suatainable design. All of the posters saying its poorly designed are probably more upset with its cost which is fair enough but it certainly isnt poorly designed. I agree the hospital should have been seen to first.

Ian7 wrote: »

Sustainable features:
- Double façade for energy efficiency and environmental control
- Floor plates optimised for natural ventilation and natural lighting
- Exposed concrete slabs for thermal mass
- BMS for overall building control and energy efficiency
- Biomass boiler
- Evacuated solar tubes for water heating
- Grey water recycling
- Locally sourced materials including Irish Blue Limestone

Divorce Referendum

zerks wrote: »

And making a complete balls of the job,spoke to some of the guys who ended up finishing the building and the list of what they had to fix was crazy.The original contractor simply saw €€€'s and threw the building up.

What did they have to fix out of interest?. Bearing in mind that building wasnt finished and would have had a snag list anyway.

Ledger

Divorce Referendum wrote: »

Ledger wrote: »

I have to agree with the extravagance aspect. Jesus like, you could fit the Tholsel in NR in that atrium, with a bit left over.

The ESB must've been laughing all the way to the bank when they saw the size of the place, the light and heat bills must be out of this world.

Any time I go in there to the tax office, (the only reason most people go there) I'm walking across that atrium thinking, why?

But like was already said, if the banks didn't have us in this mess in the first place would we be complaining at all?

Not so. If you had have read ians post you would have seen the sustainable features of the building. The heating is supplied by a huge biomass boiler in the basement nothing to do with the esb. The wood chip would be sourced nearby keeping these companies in work and is equivalent in output to the most effecient gas condensing boilers. It also emits no CO2.

The building is naturally ventilated. This involves using motorised actuator window openings which are controlled by sensors which monitor co2 and temperatures in the building (thats the BMS mentioned below).

The exposed concrete that so many people dont like provides an important fuction by absorbing the warmth during the day and is cooled at night by flushing the building with natural ventilation.

The double skin facade can also help in keeping the building warm in our climate. The solar gain within the cavity may be circulated to the occupied space to offset heating requirements.

Hot water for the kitchens and toilets is supplied by the biomass but also supplemented by the solar water heaters.

Grey water recycling refers to water which has been expelled from sinks in the kitchens and bathrooms which is treated and used again.(saves on water costs)

In regards tot he lighting you can half your electricty bill by using a photocell sensor connected to the lights. This turns off the lights when there is adequate daylighting in the room. Timeout sensors can also be used in corridors and toilets to only allow the lights on when someone is there. I am thinking from the profile of the project that good quality light fittings were used which makes a huge difference to energy usage.

I would say the esb are rather disappointed to be honest. I would make a fairly starightforward assumption that the old county hall with its ancient walls, old oil heating system and lack of bms actually cost alot more to run.

This building is actually a fine example of how a building should be built with regards to suatainable design. All of the posters saying its poorly designed are probably more upset with its cost which is fair enough but it certainly isnt poorly designed. I agree the hospital should have been seen to first.

Ian7 wrote: »

Sustainable features:
- Double façade for energy efficiency and environmental control
- Floor plates optimised for natural ventilation and natural lighting
- Exposed concrete slabs for thermal mass
- BMS for overall building control and energy efficiency
- Biomass boiler
- Evacuated solar tubes for water heating
- Grey water recycling
- Locally sourced materials including Irish Blue Limestone

I must have missed his post, thanks for that. Its surprising that WCC went to such a length to make the building so efficient.

bruschi

Divorce Referendum wrote: »

This building is actually a fine example of how a building should be built with regards to suatainable design. All of the posters saying its poorly designed are probably more upset with its cost which is fair enough but it certainly isnt poorly designed. I agree the hospital should have been seen to first.

a good post. Just to clarify where I was coming from, I meant it was poorly designed in regards to cost efficiency for its end purpose. It is a fine architectural, structural and sustainable building, but I dont think the end cost of it justifies its implementation, especially for what is a state building for offices. €47m for 10,500m2, thats nearly 4 times average office cost (granted, probably in the region of twice as much as the average at the time), for 300 staff too, 35m2 per staff member.

It was way over spec'ed and sized and way over designed for what it is for. To have architects changing through it, and the construction team going under during it, it was a real messy project, but with a fine building at the end. Just a shame it cost far too much. Obviously staff need a good place to work, but there is a happy median from lavish designed buildings up for international architectural awards paid for with state money.

yobr

Judgement Day wrote: »

Speak for yourself. I voted Green only in the election before last as I'm a natural Green supporter - even though the local candidate was a complete plank, and in the latest General Election I voted solely for Mick Wallace. I haven't voted for FF/FG/SF since I first voted in the late 1970s - 1977 I think? I take no responsibility whatsoever for the current state of the country as I was out of the country for the first part of the Celtic Tiger and in a menial job when I returned.

I was speaking collectively not about you as an individual. I thought the "we" bit was a giveaway

Divorce Referendum

Ledger wrote: »

I must have missed his post, thanks for that. Its surprising that WCC went to such a length to make the building so efficient.

It really makes sense to adopt this strategy in the design brief. It can save the client a serious amount of money over the life span of the building. There are some fine examples of low energy buildings on the wit campus as well so the government have a history of it in some of their projects.

Divorce Referendum

bruschi wrote: »

a good post. Just to clarify where I was coming from, I meant it was poorly designed in regards to cost efficiency for its end purpose. It is a fine architectural, structural and sustainable building, but I dont think the end cost of it justifies its implementation, especially for what is a state building for offices. €47m for 10,500m2, thats nearly 4 times average office cost (granted, probably in the region of twice as much as the average at the time), for 300 staff too, 35m2 per staff member.

It was way over spec'ed and sized and way over designed for what it is for. To have architects changing through it, and the construction team going under during it, it was a real messy project, but with a fine building at the end. Just a shame it cost far too much. Obviously staff need a good place to work, but there is a happy median from lavish designed buildings up for international architectural awards paid for with state money.

Ya some good points there. The spec may have been down to how the project was procured in the intial stages. Nord Architecture won a two-stage process for design of the building. Have alook at these guys website and you will see the calibre of building they design. With an architect like that it was always going to make an impression.

In the brief for the architect it was hardly mentioned that you must factor in that this building is just for council staff and should be functional rather than aesthetically pleasing. Factor in that the word recession wasnt in the public domain at the time of procurement.

As far as i know the architects only changed there name to robin lee architecture so it wasnt really a change to a completely different outfit. The demise of pierse contracting was really for reasons other than this project as we all know.

bruschi

Divorce Referendum wrote: »

Ya some good points there. The spec may have been down to how the project was procured in the intial stages. Nord Architecture won a two-stage process for design of the building. Have alook at these guys website and you will see the calibre of building they design. With an architect like that it was always going to make an impression.

In the brief for the architect it was hardly mentioned that you must factor in that this building is just for council staff and should be functional rather than aesthetically pleasing. Factor in that the word recession wasnt in the public domain at the time of procurement.

As far as i know the architects only changed there name to robin lee architecture so it wasnt really a change to a completely different outfit. The demise of pierse contracting was really for reasons other than this project as we all know.

Arthur Gibney Architects took over the project too in some form of partnership for completion. I dont know the exact specifics of the whole process, but I know it wasnt the easiest jobs to get finished, even withstanding the clusterfeck that was Pierse.

And you are right, when the job was being initialised, money seemingly wasnt an issue, nor was 'value' for it, nor the end use and its users. It was just another Celtic tiger showpiece really, and its not the only example of such a thing. At least it is being used, there are many buildings left vacant which were speculated at the building peak. As I say, it is a fine building, and is architecturally well designed, but I think its a poorly financial design.

I suppose I just think that when a building is being paid for by taxpayers money, I dont think its necessary to have such a highly spec'ed building that goes up for international architectural awards. Hindsight is great and all that, but I was even surprised at the time how much money was being budgeted for the building, regardless of recession or celtic tiger.

oscarvictor

I just read your article & couldn't agree more! I visited the offices yesterday & could not believe the obscene lavish luxury that we the taxpayers / pay masters are funding for our "servants". This is "Upstairs Downstairs" turned upside down. You are so right in everything you say. Whilst we're scrimping, saving & doing without food & heat - these people are living it up. I would be ashamed to say I worked there. The contrast between the Council offices & the nearby hospital says it all. The car park was full & could only assume that most of the cars belonged to the Council staff as there were very few members of the public to be seen. I also discovered that they have kept their old offices in the town too - how much space do 300 people need & why do we need 300 in the first place.

oscarvictor

I just read your article & couldn't agree more! I visited the offices yesterday & could not believe the obscene lavish luxury that we the taxpayers / pay masters are funding for our "servants". This is "Upstairs Downstairs" turned upside down. You are so right in everything you say. Whilst we're scrimping, saving & doing without food & heat - these people are living it up. I would be ashamed to say I worked there. The contrast between the Council offices & the nearby hospital says it all. The car park was full & could only assume that most of the cars belonged to the Council staff as there were very few members of the public to be seen. I also discovered that they have kept their old offices in the town too - how much space do 300 people need & why do we need 300 in the first place.

Cantona's Collars

It was reported before Christmas that the cost of repairs to the Dept. Of Environment offices beside the County Hall will cost in the region of €1.3 million,this is disgraceful & a damning indictment on the original builder.Some serious corners must have been cut during the construction.:eek:

TheChevron

zerks wrote: »

It was reported before Christmas that the cost of repairs to the Dept. Of Environment offices beside the County Hall will cost in the region of €1.3 million,this is disgraceful & a damning indictment on the original builder.Some serious corners must have been cut during the construction.:eek:

That's exactly what happened. Pierce construction went into liquidation, corners were cut, sub contractors were not paid etc etc.