9yr old really struggling academically...

Fittle

I've a 9yr old (almost 10) in 4th class who is currently struggling desperately with maths & irish, regularly getting zero out of ten in both subjects in his weekly tests.

Brief background - he's the youngest in his class and in Senior Infants, I approached the principal asking that he was kept back as I realised my mistake in sending him to school too early at that point. I was told by the principal that there were alot of resource teachers in the school who would help him over the years and that it wasn't their policy to keep children back whatsoever. I argued with him, and did consider moving schools at that point, but the resource teaching kicked in and he improved alot.

Anyway, roll on another few years and here we are again...getting every sum wrong in class, feeling very inadequate compared to his peers and losing confidence in other parts of his life down to this daily grind with feeling like a 'dunce' in class.

He's not getting bullied etc but I'm at the point of going to the teacher again to discuss how I can help him...firstly, I'm amazed that she hasn't yet approached me already as his test results are abysmal to say the least - but I don't want this to be another meeting where I leave feeling 'teacher knows best' and nothing really happens for him.

They won't keep him back in that school, and to be honest, I'd be reluctant to do that to him now as I feel it would have an even more negative impact on him.

Last week at homework time, he genuinely did not have a CLUE how to do any of the maths homework - not a notion - it was like it was his first time to see this type of sum (problem solving). Now I know that the teacher is having huge problems with maths in the class in general due to a rubbish teacher in 2nd class who barely did 'tables' with them (she has spoken to all the parents about this issues) but that homework last week really hit home to me just how little he's taking in during class time.

Anyone gone through this and what advice can you offer??

Just to say, he's getting resource maths lessons but there are no extra resources for Irish...

Are you able to go through the maths with him in the evenings? it might be just something he is not picking up on that you could correct?
if he is able to get that 1 to 1 attention from you on the maths and irish in the evenings it might help his confidence also to ask anything he doesn't understand

Fittle

Yep, it's late when I get to sit down with him however - could be 7.30 - but he does as much homework as he can (without help) in the childminders, and then I always correct it and help him with what he couldn't do. The minders kid is in 2nd and to be honest, she doesn't help them with homework at all (not saying she should, just saying he does what he can on his own after school until I get in from work).

Fittle

Fittle wrote: »

Yep, it's late when I get to sit down with him however - could be 7.30 - but he does as much homework as he can (without help) in the childminders, and then I always correct it and help him with what he couldn't do. The minders kid is in 2nd and to be honest, she doesn't help them with homework at all (not saying she should, just saying he does what he can on his own after school until I get in from work).

Have you tried rather than homework, sitting down and doing the maths in general? I mean like general concepts? I think it sounds like something isn't sticking, so maybe there is just something he is not understanding, and it should be separate to homework? I mean maybe an hour or two on a weekend might clear stuff up, going back to basics and reinforcing them? It's hard to say I guess, without knowing what the issue is

January

Moved from Parenting to Primary and Pre school.

Rasmus

Your first port of call really has to be the teacher here - if you could manage a quick meeting with her, she could let you know how your child is coping in the class. If you don't have time for a meeting, maybe a note in his homework journal.

In Maths, your child may have not understood something in the beginning and as time went on, is now not listening, (in big classes he may be under the radar) or is genuinely lost - either way, only the teacher can give you an idea of what's going on.
It's good he's getting help with maths - maybe a chat with the resource teacher if you can't meet the main teacher?

I wouldn't be overly concerned about Irish personally, many kids struggle with it.

paperclip2

What are his basic maths skills like Fittle? Is he ok with addition, subtraction, multiplication and division?
Sometimes focusing on the tables and working with him on these at home can help. I was a dunce at maths in school and my mother spent hours just drumming these basics into me and it really improved my understanding of maths.

Also I dont know if they do much of the 'word' problems in his class yet, e.g. 'If Ann has €100 and shares it equally with her sister and then spends a quarter of her own money how much has she left', but I found with my own girl that if we went through the problem and put the relevant mathematical sign over each portion of the question it helped her to figure out what she needed to do at each stage.

Hope it improves for him the little pet.

Fittle

Thanks guys.

To answer a few questions -

His 'basic maths skills' are atrocious. When they went into the fourth class, there was uproar as none of the kids knew their basic tables and all of the maths books, work on the assumption that they do - the teacher had dreadful problems all of September until she got to the bottom of how a full class didn't know their tables...

Anyway, he still can't tell the time on the digital clock...can't figure out money and is really bad at those 'word' problems you describe paperclip2! Overall, he is really bad with numbers!

None of this is helped by the fact that he is waiting on his fourth set of grommets and regaularly 'drifts off into never-never land' when he gets a build up of fluid in his ears in class...he sits up the top of the class as every teacher he's every had has commented on this 'drifting off'...but having had him assessed over the years (only because I worked in a place that did child assessments), he's perfectly fine, but for this ear problem. Hearing is perfect, but he says when the fluid builds up, he feels like he is being dipped under a swimming pool and has to bang on the side of his cheek until the fluid clears.....:(. He has a hole in his ear canal that the hospital were going to 'fix' with a skin graft when he was ten..but they've changed their mind on that one now, saying as he doesn't get ear infections, they'll leave it

Anyway...one teacher did mention the phrase 'developmental delay' in first class - she said he would always be a child who didn't grasp problems as quickly as his peers, but one day, things will just 'click' with him and he'll be fine. I've noticed this happens in all parts of his life btw...and she was right..but this struggle in 4th class seems to be having a real impact on his confidence..not to mention my stress levels!!!

I think if he is bad with numbers you need to drop the homework on weekends and sit down and go right back to basics again. he may tune out classes now if he is so far behind that they just don't make sense
use all sorts of visual aids

Mr.Wemmick

What a shame they didn't allow him to repeat a year in Junior or Senior infants. You were obviously right, in-tune with your son and recognised what he needed - good on you!

First thing I would do now is stop giving yourself a hard time by becoming stressed (know it's easy for me to say) but it will not help you or him. He will also feel like he is letting you down and that will affect his self-esteem and confidence even more.

I would think his concentration has also been affected by the ear/hearing problem so you need to go back to where he understands maths: addition (?) and start there. Always give him maths to do that he can achieve/succeed at and praise him, point out to him his ability to learn is fine as he knows the basics then build it up slowly from there. You need to do a little every day and I would cover your walls with large sheets of maths numbers, sums etc. so that once he understands a new concept, the visual aid will help reinforce it.

Try out some fun maths games in the car when you're driving, going out for a walk, bath time e.g if Farmer Joe with the big nose and the large yellow sunglasses has 21 cows sells a 1/3 of his cows, how many cows does he have left? Talk about the funny sunglasses, making jokes about the farmer before doing the sum - the reason he is selling the cows is because they have learnt to sing and it is driving him bonkers.. change that sum to subtraction if that is the level he is comfortable with. His hobbies? Make fun sums out of football players - if Wayne Rooney grows 5 more hairs on his head when he has already got 93, how many does he have now?

I would also take him back to the doctor and get him referred for a pediatric development assessment.. also, have you had his hearing tested lately?

Keep positive and keep fighting! You both will get there

byhookorbycrook

The DES makes it difficult to keep a child back unless there is a definite learning difficulty. I think a firebrigade approach ,ie waiting until he is in trouble isn't working. I'd suggest you get New Wave mental maths 3 and work through a little bit each night.The reason I suggest book is that he probably needsto go back over this work if 4th class stuff is so hard for him and also that he starts to have some success at maths,which is a huge part of maths too, the confidence to tackle things.

For tables sumdog.com is really good.
Is there any talk of learning support for him?

Jimmy Iovine

I'm not a qualified teacher or anything so I can't recommend much in the line of assessment or that. I do remember you from the soccer forum last year though. I assume that you are talking about the same soccer-mad boy now as then. If so then I think it'd be a great idea to get him interested in counting using football videos, pictures or league tables as aids.

There are plenty of compilation videos on youtube of Ronaldo or Messi scoring 50 goals. You could get him to count out the goals in the videos. Then maybe have him look at the different league tables around Europe. The EPL has 20 teams, some of the lower leagues have 24 and the SPL has 12 teams. Have a look at the top scorers charts in all the leagues around and see who has the most goals in Europe. Check out the different clubs that have won the European cup and see who has the highest.

There is no end to the amount that you can do with numbers and soccer. The whole game is based around numbers and stats. If he still has the same love for football then he should lap up all that learning. I would have loved it when I was younger. I was a demon for remembering soccer matches and goals.

Hopefully using the soccer aid might help him realise that learning can be fun and he may get better at his maths.

Fittle

Yep, same soccer mad boy! It's interesting you all bring soccer or sport into this..I made an appointment with his teacher for this week anyway, so that's my first step.

But yes, he's still soccer (and Man U) mad (thanks for remembering me Jimmy Iovine:D) So I sat down last night and really thought about how he uses numbers in his day to day life - and lo and behold, I realised that this boy could tell you the score from a match last season, tell you the number of points the team had in the league at the time, the amount of points they needed in their next game, tell you who scored each of Man Us eight goals in that big win against Arsenal (and in order!) etc etc so I also realised that actually, in a part of his life that he's really interested in, he is most probably, amazing at maths!!

I had never thought of it like that however. This lack of confidence in his school work has been affecting us both - I had assumed things were ticking along nicely for him until a couple of months ago and then assumed that this maths problem was getting worse as the weeks go on.

But you are all so right on other ways I can approach this - I will most definitely ask him if Wayne Rooney currently has 204 hairs on his head, and he grows another 95, how many hairs will he have the minute he wakes up this morning:D:D (he'll get great craic out of that one!!).

Thanks again for all the tips - you've been very helpful and I'll begin as soon as he wakes up this morning:)

Fittle

Great fun on the way to school this morning.

David Beckham is afraid of going bald and also afraid that his sons will go bald (news reports yesterday). So I started off the conv...'If Beckham loses 4 hairs off his head, every week for the next 7 weeks, how many hairs will he lose...' and then I went through all his kids :D He got every single one of them right, without much thought!! So his basic tables MUST be in their somewhere!!!

Jimmy Iovine

Good to hear. Never underestimate how much a young lad will remember about soccer. It's scary really. They may seem to be doing nothing on the outside but remembering every single little fact that happens on the inside.

If you can find ways to challenge him with his maths while incorporating his love for soccer then he'll hopefully find it much easier to concentrate IMO.

Happyman42

Great and informative thread for somebody almost in the same boat. The sumdog.com website is very handy...thanks...I think I might need to use it too!

paperclip2

That's fantastic Fittle. Making the stuff relevant and interesting to him is the way to go. Must keep it mind myself for my young lad.

Fittle

Well, I had a word with teacher this morning - she was very helpful. She showed me his test results in class and said he's 'holding his own'. The extra resource he's getting is working wonders, and she has seen an improvement in him already this week. I mentioned some of the websites mentioned here, and the tips I've gotten - she thought they were wonderful ideas and said she'd use the football tips (particularly!) in class:D. She also gave me a list of a few other websites she uses in class.

According to her, she wasn't aware that he was finding it such a struggle - yes, she knew his results were weak, but she wasn't aware it was affecting his confidence so much. When I pointed out a few things to her, she accepted she should have picked it up sooner.

So today, she is creating the 'Maths Club' - an incentivised 'club' (stickers etc) - things like this have worked with my lad since he was a toddler (reward charts etc) and she's making him, her 'helper' in the Club:) She did it before in a class she taught 2yrs ago...I know this will work with him and he'll come home today telling me all about how wonderful his life is because he is teachers helper in the Maths Club...

Things can only improve - thanks again for tips guy, very much appreciated.

Daisy M

Thats great fittle glad things are improving. You got some great advice on here and just to add a few tips re the not grasping money and time. Give him a little more responsibility when it comes to shoping. Let him have x amount of euro to buy something say a mixed bag of 2c 5c 10 c sweetslet him be responsible for getting the bag to add up to x amount. Or tell him you need to get a few bits and can he try adding them up so you know how much you need to have ready. Or if there is something he is saving up for ask him each time he adds to his savings how much more he needs. As for the time if he asks to do something or go somewhere tell him he can at x oclock and to remind you when its that time. That way he will have a personal interest in money/time and will use it for himself not because he has to. Best of luck.

dollyk

Kinesthetic learning is a learning style in which learning takes place by the student actually carrying out a physical activity, rather than listening to a lecture or merely watching a demonstration. It is also referred to as tactile learning. People with a kinesthetic learning style are also commonly known as do-ers.


copied and pasted. had to do this with my daughter , she just didnt get the maths , i used barbies.lol

ihope

after a few days in between all these interesting ways try to go thru his previous years - 2nd 3rd and later 4th class math books as 'hook or by crook' suggested and he will really improve then. Bear in mind that basic stuff has to be worked upon else it becomes really tough to catch up later.

also if he is really young say born after Feb or March try to have his 4th class repeated in a different school but this might be very tough.

Fittle

[QUOTE=ihope;76739709

also if he is really young say born after Feb or March try to have his 4th class repeated in a different school but this might be very tough.[/QUOTE]

He's the youngest in his class unfortunately - but of course, when he was in montessori he was way ahead of his peers and all the teachers assured me that he would be well able for 'big school'. I tell every parent I know now, not to start their kid in primary school until they turn 5, where possible - hindsight is a wonderful thing.

I really believe changing schools would have a very negative impact on him - as would keeping him back a year (not that it's an option in his school anyhow).

Fittle

Fittle wrote: »

I tell every parent I know now, not to start their kid in primary school until they turn 5, where possible - hindsight is a wonderful thing.

in fairness it should depend on the child

Fittle

bluewolf wrote: »

in fairness it should depend on the child

Well in my experience of primary school and the many parents I've gotten to know over the years, without fail all of them have regretted sending their 4yr olds to school. Edit: they've all regretted sending their 4yr old BOYS to school!

Mr.Wemmick

Fittle wrote: »

Well in my experience of primary school and the many parents I've gotten to know over the years, without fail all of them have regretted sending their 4yr olds to school. Edit: they've all regretted sending their 4yr old BOYS to school!

I agree with this too and think the older the child, the better able they are to cope with school.

I thought that Irish schools would allow you to repeat juniors infants if a child needs more time to adjust to school, no? Has that changed?

Fittle

Mr.Wemmick wrote: »

I agree with this too and think the older the child, the better able they are to cope with school.

I thought that Irish schools would allow you to repeat juniors infants if a child needs more time to adjust to school, no? Has that changed?

I know in my day (years ago:p) there were kids kept back in the blink of an eye - I can't quote any research but I worked in adult ed. at one point and remember hearing that studies had proven the detrimental effect keeping a child back in school had on the majority (lack of self-esteem being the major factor). The Dept. of Ed looked into it, and 'created' the 'resource teacher' position.

The exact words spoken to me when I asked my sons principal if he could be kept back in SI were 'It's children like your son who ensure the Dept of Ed continue to provide us with resource teachers'...I was livid to say the least, but that's a whole other thread;)

ihope

yes as bluewolf says it depends on the child, my son turned 5 now in december and is doing alright in JI for now, good at reading and attempting to read (i say this coz he was sent a bunch of letters to do over the next few months and to my surprise could tell me half of them although they have not been done in class yet) and math is still very easy so can't say much on this, he is able to enjoy his homework most day

I thought being 4.9 months atleast he is well above 4.5 in september.

I'll keep an eye on his progress vis a vis other older children. All the best in your efforts.

Go through these threads, there are some members who have posted very good suggestions for maths :

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056436903

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056293117

Fittle

Thanks ihope, I'll have a look at those threads too.

I was really referring to those of us with kids (boys) born earlier in the year - my lad is a june baby and in hindsight, had only turned 4 that summer. But as I said, he was way ahead of his peers in montessori..Anyhow, he'll get there I'm sure - I'm finding the websites great and also trying to continue to do maths through stuff he's already interested in - today's conundrum is all about tomorrows FA Cup;)

byhookorbycrook

The DES make it difficult to keep children back unless they have a specific learning difficulty. I have never met a parent who regretted keeping a child until they are closer to 5 by but plenty who regretted sending them early.

E.T.

Fittle wrote: »

I know in my day (years ago:p) there were kids kept back in the blink of an eye - I can't quote any research but I worked in adult ed. at one point and remember hearing that studies had proven the detrimental effect keeping a child back in school had on the majority (lack of self-esteem being the major factor). The Dept. of Ed looked into it, and 'created' the 'resource teacher' position.

The exact words spoken to me when I asked my sons principal if he could be kept back in SI were 'It's children like your son who ensure the Dept of Ed continue to provide us with resource teachers'...I was livid to say the least, but that's a whole other thread;)

I really don't know about that story re creating the resource teacher position. Resource hours are only given to children who have a recommendation for them from a psychologist, speech therapist, or other professional. They've nothing at all to do with children who have repeated years.

p.s. byhookorbycrook, couldn't agree with you more about parents not regretting sending children later rather than early.
Learning support is the general support that's given at the discretion of the school, depending on test scores and timetabling.

A lot of schools have teachers who take children for both types of support, and sometimes children with LS hours are slotted in with children with Resource hours where suitable.