Why the constant need to protest?

Robdude

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

This thread is sort of an accompaniment to my other recession related thread. This time I’m curious about why people are so intent of refusing to accept any and all measures brought in by the government to tackle the current crisis. No-one likes cuts and taxes I know and people are struggling but surely point blank refusing to even consider the benefits of the governments plans won’t do anyone favours?

So why the constant protesting? Are we really in such dire straights or is there a certain amount of ‘not in my back yard’ style protesting going on? Or to put it another way do you think all those protesting really are struggling (I don’t doubt some of them are btw) or are there those who really could handle the cuts and taxes but simply refuse to do so.

And in the case of those just won’t pay tax or take a cut even though they probably could afford to do so is it a lack of trust in the government, genuinely not agreeing with cuts/taxes or as above , a simple case of ‘not in my back yard’/ tax/cut only what doesn’t affect me personally?

I don't have a problem with taxes or with cuts.

I do have a problem with gross misconduct, fraud, and abuse. I see what we pay in taxes, and I see what we get for it. The numbers do not add up.

It's like driving a car with a leaking petrol tank. We don't need to drive less, and we don't need to buy more petrol. We need to stop the leak.

Celly Smunt

Protesters in Ireland know the problem but campaign no alternative.That's the problem.

Dudess

HellFireClub wrote: »

Dudess wrote: »

Meh, I wouldn't blame them for taking those jobs - it's not their fault those are the conditions, and anyone would accept such a job... including those who bitch about the public sector.

And those people you've listed who take the piss - doubtful a majority... yet all PS workers get blamed? That stamp story sounds like a fib.

It's the higher echelons of the public/civil service who deserve pay-cuts and criticism, not office administrators on 25k... and CERTAINLY not teachers (for the life of me I cannot understand how educators of younger generations have to put up with so much begrudgery), nurses, paramedics, street-cleaners, etc.

Teachers get it in the neck and rightfully so in my opinion, because their system of employment completely protects non-performers, and those who ought to have no place in education, to the detriment of young children who will only have one shot at first and second level education.

I had some absolutely atrocious teachers in school, these folks were very clearly in the industry that they had chosen for the easy handy number that it is. I also had some excellent teachers who I can thank to this day for some of the life skills that I have.

I finished my formal education with excellent literary abilities because I had an excellent teacher who helped me develop those skills, but I also left school with a near inability to work with numbers, because I had a teacher in respect of that competency who was nothing less than a disgrace to the rest of his profession.

How the system of education we have in this country, allows both the teachers above, to enjoy the same pay, benefits, and job security, I think is something that is completely unacceptable. There wasn't even a system in existence within the Dept of Education to monitor the results that were emerging from these situations, in the latter situation, pretty much the whole class failed the Leaving Cert maths exam, but this fact wasn't even captured, let alone then try to intervene and coach or manage the useless teacher to up their game or to basically do their core job.

Just to finish the story, it was only when I got into 3rd level and met with a very competent lecturer who understood my deep weakness with maths, did I get the problem resolved at long last.

But it's not good enough that we have this kind of rediculous carry on in the public sector in 2012, where incompetence is not even faced up to, let alone dealt with.

And I don't agree with PS folks on 25K being lined up for more cuts, but this is not what the PS themselves are saying, the bar is not at 25K in their heads, they reckon that anyone on less than 100K should be left alone, only today a figure is released that only 1/4 PS employees are on more than 60K, as if 60K is just micky money!?!?!?!

What I'd love to know is how many are on between 40K and 100K, and can we start cutting their pay, (or before we even start that debate, maybe stop automatically raising their salaries every year), and at least make folks pitch for it and make a case for it through a proper and fair performance review system that rewards those who seek to improve and innovate and who leaves those that just clock in and turn up, on the same salary.

I don't disagree with your objections to aspects of the public service, but you're still kinda scapegoating. For instance, if there are sh1t teachers and the system enables them to take the piss, fair enough to criticise this of course, but how does it justify teachers across the board getting it in the neck?

Robdude

Dudess wrote: »

I don't disagree with your objections to aspects of the public service, but you're still kinda scapegoating. For instance, if there are sh1t teachers and the system enables them to take the piss, fair enough to criticise this of course, but how does it justify teachers across the board getting it in the neck?

Presumably because good teachers are in a position to do something about bad teachers. More than anyone else. Every day they go to work, they experience it first hand.

How many good teachers said, 'Hold on, let's not just give us all a raise....let's come up with an objective system to measure our value'. How many said, 'Hey - let's revisit these policies that make it impossible to fire us. Even though it is nice to have job security, I think it's more important that we ensure teachers are good at their jobs. I want these things changed because it's better for the students, better for the country and better for the tax payers'.

Dudess

Robdude wrote: »

Dudess wrote: »

I don't disagree with your objections to aspects of the public service, but you're still kinda scapegoating. For instance, if there are sh1t teachers and the system enables them to take the piss, fair enough to criticise this of course, but how does it justify teachers across the board getting it in the neck?

Presumably because good teachers are in a position to do something about bad teachers. More than anyone else. Every day they go to work, they experience it first hand.

How many good teachers said, 'Hold on, let's not just give us all a raise....let's come up with an objective system to measure our value'. How many said, 'Hey - let's revisit these policies that make it impossible to fire us. Even though it is nice to have job security, I think it's more important that we ensure teachers are good at their jobs. I want these things changed because it's better for the students, better for the country and better for the tax payers'.

Be honest though: would you? IMO blame should be apportioned to those running the show, not the actors.

Robdude

Dudess wrote: »

Be honest though: would you? IMO blame should be apportioned to those running the show, not the actors.

"I was only following orders!"

Dudess

Robdude wrote: »

Dudess wrote: »

Be honest though: would you? IMO blame should be apportioned to those running the show, not the actors.

"I was only following orders!"

A perfectly valid defence much of the time - but the blame/scapegoating culture we live in causes people to sneer at it in a knee-jerk manner.

ilovesleep

There are no doubts about it that there are people in dire circumstances. Things fell down upon my ass there for a while for me. I just wasn't earning enough for rent, my one and only bill, and food. Had no option but to move back home.
There are still many people protected here in this country and maybe are unable to grasp that things are dire for others. And there would be a terrible, ignornant, perception of: sure, what are they suffering from? A lack of a holiday?

Anyways my urge for protesting stems from a few different things and because my pocket is directing hit. My urge comes from one:

1) A lack of accountibility
This country was one run in negligent manner. From the ex government and bankers. Some people argue, we voted for them when the writing was on the wall as if we were supposed to be econmists and that they would do so much damage.
We are all only responsible for our own personal finances - how were people to know what was happening in the banks?

A lack of accountibilty while we pick up the pieces.

2) inequality - in many shapes & forms:
Law:
Developers who behaved negligently taking out huge loans were protected by nama and were allowed to transfer assets to family.
I believe it's a different story for the normal joe soap on the street. Not that I believe they should get there own nama but oridnary joe soaps would receieve different treatment perhaps even being hauled up in court if they were unable to pay their mortgage and bills.

2) tribunals
If politicians commited a crime eg tax fraud they are protected with a tribunal where as if an ordinary person were to do the same they are held fully responsible.

In society
1) The CPA is protecting over inflated wages. Many people in the private sector has lost work or had their hours reduced so their income has been severely reduced. The very top of the PS and the civil service are overpaid and overinflated and they are protected. I realise we have a deficit and the country needs sustainable taxes. This country has a country has a huge spending problem and the new taxes and charges is sending a transfer of wealth from the lower incomes to higher incomes.

If you were to dwell on things deeper - what is keeping this country going is the the manufacturing exporting industry and the government is sucking all that is left of that for this sheer and utter greed.

I could be writing all night but I am starved.

wendell borton

This time I’m curious about why people are so intent of refusing to accept any and all measures brought in by the government to tackle the current crisis. No-one likes cuts and taxes I know and people are struggling but surely point blank refusing to even consider the benefits of the governments plans won’t do anyone favours?

What benifets are there from the cuts and extra taxes?
I would not mind higher taxes if i was getting something back in return, like decent healthcare and education. But instaed i see bondholders getting back billions.

SafeSurfer

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

This thread is sort of an accompaniment to my other recession related thread. This time I’m curious about why people are so intent of refusing to accept any and all measures brought in by the government to tackle the current crisis. No-one likes cuts and taxes I know and people are struggling but surely point blank refusing to even consider the benefits of the governments plans won’t do anyone favours?

So why the constant protesting? Are we really in such dire straights or is there a certain amount of ‘not in my back yard’ style protesting going on? Or to put it another way do you think all those protesting really are struggling (I don’t doubt some of them are btw) or are there those who really could handle the cuts and taxes but simply refuse to do so.

And in the case of those just won’t pay tax or take a cut even though they probably could afford to do so is it a lack of trust in the government, genuinely not agreeing with cuts/taxes or as above , a simple case of ‘not in my back yard’/ tax/cut only what doesn’t affect me personally?

Would it be unfair to ask if you are a member of a political party?

earpiece

1850 715 815 De live lian is open
Caller, what's your story, ohhhh terrible terribbbbbble terrrribbblllle.

Johro

Hmmm... Where to start.? Okaaayyy...
The cuts in wages, job losses, tax hikes and new taxes we're experiencing are caused by irresponsible management, gambling, and/or downright fraud and creative accounting by the big financial institutions, who then, after finding themselves in trouble and having been bailed out by the government with our money, are back in business and running the show as usual. Knowing that all the measures taken by the government, instructed by the IMF, are not going to make a difference. They know it, the government knows it, every economist worth his salt knows it.
There is not going to be much change at all until politicians grow some balls and stop letting the banks dictate policy. Not just here, but globally. Coz anyone who thinks that their government actually has a say about where we're going is plain naive. We are now all working for the people who got us into this shit.
It's time they wrote off their debts and started anew. The f#ckers have us paying interest on loans we needed after bailing them out. They're making profits. And politicians haven't the balls to challenge them, what is important to them, more than anything, is re-election.
Why the need to constantly question the need for protest? Because it seems obvious to me we're being taken for fools.

K-9

Seems to be the same types protesting as would have been 6/7 years ago.

It'll take one movement to get the populace excited, something that benefits all. Give it 2/3 years, higher taxes and cuts to Welfare and PS pay. Something like the PD's will happen, saying cutting taxes will lead to riches for all.

Cutting taxes will become the new religion and anybody saying otherwise will be ostracised. Cutting taxes worked before sure, yep, and property always goes up.

AngryBollix

earpiece wrote: »

1850 715 815 De live lian is open
Caller, what's your story, ohhhh terrible terribbbbbble terrrribbblllle.

Thanks Thanks Bye sure sure

Oh god

AudreyHepburn

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Would it be unfair to ask if you are a member of a political party?

Unfair....no.

Missing the point....yes.

Can I not question these things as an oridinary citizen?

HellFireClub

Dudess wrote: »

I don't disagree with your objections to aspects of the public service, but you're still kinda scapegoating. For instance, if there are sh1t teachers and the system enables them to take the piss, fair enough to criticise this of course, but how does it justify teachers across the board getting it in the neck?

Because all the little insanities within the system, are held together by a union, which they are ALL members of. Every one of them have the standing in life, as human beings, to improve their performance levels, to improve the whole system, but the way they all operate, is that they will not take ownership of any improvements or do anything other than what is in their contract, unless it is negotiated through their union and there is something in it for them. Look at how begrudgingly they gave ONE ADDITIONAL HOUR of service a week, as part of the Croke Park Agreement, when most of them are on less than a 20 hour a week teaching schedule.

I think it's a very strange kind of belligerance and greed that brings about collective behaviour such as this.

Toby Take a Bow

HellFireClub wrote: »

I think it's a very strange kind of belligerance and greed that brings about collective behaviour such as this.

I think it's understandable, whether it's right or wrong. The union offers protection for services, I'm not really sure why anyone would willingly give up benefits. You can argue that people should be able to see the whole picture, but it's a very difficult thing for people to do.

The unions can be more hassle than they're worth, but their collective power - if you know how to use it properly - can be incredibly advantageous for workers.

SafeSurfer

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Unfair....no.

Missing the point....yes.

Can I not question these things as an oridinary citizen?

You start by asking why people need to protest new taxes and charges then you go on to say you are still living at home.

I can understand why you don't feel the need to protest because.

You won't be paying

The household charge
The NPPR
Water rates
Broadcasting charge
Site valuation tax
etc etc.

Dudess

Toby Take a Bow wrote: »

HellFireClub wrote: »

I think it's a very strange kind of belligerance and greed that brings about collective behaviour such as this.

I think it's understandable, whether it's right or wrong. The union offers protection for services, I'm not really sure why anyone would willingly give up benefits. You can argue that people should be able to see the whole picture, but it's a very difficult thing for people to do.

The unions can be more hassle than they're worth, but their collective power - if you know how to use it properly - can be incredibly advantageous for workers.

Naysayers need to ask themselves: would they abide by their principles in the same situation? Methinks... no.

My name is URL

http://www.thejournal.ie/slideshow-topless-protesters-arrested-at-davos-summit-340070-Jan2012/

hatrickpatrick

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I'm not backtracking at all. Just acknowledging that I know there are those genuinely struggling.

But equally many aren't really that badly off, yet they pitch a fit every time a new cut or tax comes out and I am wondering why.

Do they genuinely disagree or is it a case of 'not in my back yard' or 'tax the rich only'?

Again sorry for any offense caused, I have clearly upset a lot of struggling people here.

It's not "tax the rich only", it's "I'm willing to contribute to cleaning up this mess provided that in return I get to see justice served against those who made it."

In other words, you can start taxing ordinary AND rich people who had nothing to do with corruption in the banking sector and politics, after the latter has been milked completely dry. But being asked to give up our lifestyles while the likes of the Golden Circle and our former cabinet are enjoying sunny holidays all over the world feels like being asked to do jail time for a murder while the real murderer is enjoying life on the back of YOUR money which you are being forced to pay him.

We need to see some f*cking accountability. Stop letting them hide behind technicalities and BS, let's see a real investigation and if they are found to be guilty of offenses and corruption then let's see some justice.

And I'm aware that won't solve our problems, but it will make the bitter pills we have to swallow feel a lot less bitter.

I'm all for people protesting when they feel the need. We live in a country where our government has repeatedly lied to us and as such is it any wonder each new proposal is met with scrutiny and distrust. When we vote No on a European referendum that the Germans and French want passed what happens? Is democracy respected and the wishes of the people held to? No we are forced to vote a second time, this time with the leaders of our country telling lies about what a Yes vote will mean.

Some protests are a little ludicrous and there are far too many full time protesters but there is no other way that the people can make their feelings know to their representatives. I think that the lack of response from Sean Sherlock regarding his proposed SOPA bill showed just how little respect our elected officials have for us. I and many others spent months emailing and ringing Sherlock and didst get a single reply. Had we stood outside his office and protested I imagine that he would have answered some of our questions.