Time limit for dole?

yore

christmas2012 wrote: »

there are plenty of people on the dole looking for jobs getting a constant stream of rejection letters,are you suggesting to cut these peoples dole?

No, I'd suggest they apply for different jobs

IrishAm

yore wrote: »

Oh, and to answer your question, that 250 on the jobsbridge that you look down your nose at, or the minimum wage job wiping those tables, might look a lot more tempting if your dole was halved after 2 years

Every worker in the Irish state is legally entitled to the minimum wage. Workers who sign up with the intern programme, agree to waive that right in the hope that they pick up some valuable training, new skills and become more employable.

Waiting table is not rocket science. It takes a month tops to learn. So why waive your right to earn the minimum wage, when you will learn little or nothing extra, in the following eleven months?

Employers advertising intern jobs for wait staff are taking the absolute p*ss.

yore

IrishAm wrote: »

Every worker in the Irish state is legally entitled to the minimum wage. Workers who sign up with the intern programme, agree to waive that right in the hope that they pick up some valuable training, new skills and become more employable.

Waiting table is not rocket science. It takes a month tops to learn. So why waive your right to earn the minimum wage, when you will learn little or nothing extra, in the following eleven months?

Employers advertising intern jobs for wait staff are taking the absolute p*ss.

The bolded part is not entirely true

woodoo

Just do what Germany does. Pay decent dole for a while and then put them down to €340 per month. Just cover food, medical and shelter. No spare money for fags, booze, holidays or a car.

fianna saor

yore wrote: »

The bolded part is not entirely true

how do you mean?

fianna saor

woodoo wrote: »

Just do what Germany does. Pay decent dole for a while and then put them down to €340 per month. Just cover food, medical and shelter. No spare money for fags, booze, holidays or a car.

or put it on some sort of card system where everything is itemised and recorded if items like the ones you mentioned are on this subtract it from the next payment

IrishAm

fianna saor wrote: »

or put it on some sort of card system where everything is itemised and recorded if items like the ones you mentioned are on this subtract it from the next payment

What would happen then is, some people would buy 20 euro worth of groceries on their card for a friend, in return for fifteen euro in cash.

fianna saor

IrishAm wrote: »

What would happen then is, some people would buy 20 euro worth of groceries on their card for a friend, in return for fifteen euro in cash.

yeah maybe so, id still opt foe my other suggestion of gradual reduction though.

yore

fianna saor wrote: »

how do you mean?

I think the statement is pretty straightforward.


Here: http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/pay_and_employment/pay_inc_min_wage.html

Exceptions to those entitled to receive the national minimum wage
There are some exceptions to those entitled to receive the national minimum wage. The legislation does not apply to a person employed by a close relative (for example, a spouse, civil partner or parent) nor does it apply to those in statutory apprenticeships. Also some employees such as young people under 18 and trainees are only guaranteed a reduced or sub-minimum rate of the national minimum wage.

Sub-minimum rates
Since 1 July 2011 the National Minimum Wage Act provides the following sub-minimum rates, see also 'Rates' below:

An employee who is under 18 is entitled to €6.06 per hour (this is 70% of the minimum wage)
An employee who is in the first year of employment since the age of 18 is entitled to €6.92 per hour (80% of minimum wage)
An employee who is in the second year of employment since the date of first employment over the age of 18 is entitled to €7.79 per hour (90% of the minimum wage)
This phasing in of the national minimum wage also applies to employees who are over 18 and enter employment for the first time.

Trainees
The National Minimum Wage Act also provides sub-minimum rates which apply to employees who are over 18 and undergoing a course of structured training or directed study that is authorised or approved of by the employer.

Since 1 July 2011 the trainee rates provided by the Act are as follows, see also 'Rates' below:

First one-third of training course €6.49 per hour (75% of national minimum wage rate)
Second one-third of training course €6.92 per hour (80% of national minimum wage rate)
Final one third of the training course €7.79 per hour (90% of national minimum wage rate)
Note: each one third period must be at least one month and no more than one year.

The Act provides certain criteria which the training course must meet if the trainee rates are to apply. For example, the training or study must be for the purposes of improving the work performance of the employee; the employee's participation on the training or study must be directed or approved by the employer; at least 10% of the training must occur away from the employee’s ordinary operational duties; there must be an assessment and certification procedure or written confirmation on the completion of the training course.

Exemption for employer
If an employer cannot afford to pay the national minimum wage due to financial difficulty the Labour Court may exempt an employer from paying the minimum wage rate for between 3 months and one year. Only one such exemption can be allowed.

The employer must apply to the Labour Court for the exemption with the consent of a majority of the employees, who must also agree to be bound by the Labour Court decision.

The employer must demonstrate that he/she is unable to pay the national minimum wage and that, if compelled to do so, would have to lay-off employees or terminate their employment.

An exemption may only be sought from paying the full rate of the national minimum wage, not for cases covered by the reduced rate, for example, employees who are under 18 years of age.

fianna saor

yore wrote: »

I think the statement is pretty straightforward.


Here: http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/pay_and_employment/pay_inc_min_wage.html

didnt actually know that... interesting

christmas2012

yore wrote: »

No, I'd suggest they apply for different jobs

what i was saying is that these people didnt narrow their search and still got rejection letters

forfuxsake

yore wrote: »

Are you another one who thinks themselves above any manual labour for no apparent reason. With nothing to back it up other than a deluded sense of superiority

No what I said was that you don't need a lot of training to wipe tables. Maybe you would.

Lisa2011

If a time limit was put on the dole and your brought in after it and asked why dont you have a job the answer is so obvious supermacs wont take you on if you have been working as a legal secretary or engineer for years as they know working in a fast food restaurant is not what you want to be doing. Also alot of employers are no advertising full time jobs for less than the dole and dont come back and say the dole is too much as 188 euro a week is not enough to live on. A single person has to be earning between 250 and 300 euro in order to be not living in poverty.

I have a friend who wants to work in a multinational company and he cant get a job in one because he has no experience of working in one. So tell me how can people get off the dole if employers are not helping to reduce unemployment.

Many people want a different career because of the recession and cant get work because they wont be hired. So please stop telling people to keep looking for work. If people constantly apply and get rejected it can result in them sinking into depression.

There are alot of people who want to work and hate being on the dole and they have tried to get jobs all over the country and outside and are constantly being rejected.

Finally take into consideration that alot of private sector businesses are closing because nobody is buying and are being scared into not buying by the government and banks are refusing to give credit to businesses so tell me how can people get work and alot of jobs are part time + casual and often only last a few months.

Worldwide unemployment is over 202million and will increase by 11m over the next two years and the financial crisis is spreading beyond Europe.

In order for people to be given the opportunity to do a different type of job they have to be hired but that is not the case.

The constitution of Ireland does state that the government has to provide a suitable standard of living for the citizens of the country and they are not.

One last point is that alot of people live well off social welfare and these are people whio have alot of kids and get childrens allowance and on top of this if they are out of work they get extra JSB for each dependent child they have. So the people who only get JSA or JSB are struggling and are not being hired to work .

Lisa2011

The job bridge scheme might be good but employers are sacking paid staff and hiring free labour under that so tell me how can people get paid jobs and get off the dole.? Because of this putting a time limit on the dole is wrong. Just go and cut Noonans 200k salary and plus vote no in the referendum as you will face over 40 years of austerity for Ireland to have balanced budgets.

yore

Lisa2011 wrote: »

I have a friend who wants to work in a multinational company and he cant get a job in one because he has no experience of working in one. So tell me how can people get off the dole if employers are not helping to reduce unemployment.

I have a friend who wants to earn a hundred grand a week playing soccer for Manchester United. He can't get the job because he has no experience playing for a professional soccer team. Plus he's sh1t at the game anyway.

I think the answer to his experience problem is a scheme called jobsbridge. You mention it in your second post as if it is a bad thing. Your friend might get his experience through that. Whereas he won't if it's via normal routes. If he could have, he would have already.

Lisa2011

yore wrote: »

I have a friend who wants to earn a hundred grand a week playing soccer for Manchester United. He can't get the job because he has no experience playing for a professional soccer team. Plus he's sh1t at the game anyway.

I think the answer to his experience problem is a scheme called jobsbridge. You mention it in your second post as if it is a bad thing. Your friend might get his experience through that. Whereas he won't if it's via normal routes. If he could have, he would have already.

The Jobsbridge is not a bad thing when people are not losing their jobs and being replaced by people who are working for free. The whole point of the scheme is for people to work along side experienced staff in businesses so they can get the experience but those on Jobsbridge in alot of companies are replacing paid employees. I also know that my friend wont get a place on it given the experience he has. Also he has applied for hundreds of jobs outside Ireland and was not successful and I can vouch that he is one person who worked hard and hates being on the dole. There isn't enough places to get all the people on dole into jobs. With so many people looking to do what he wants to do there is no guarantee he would be successful and also there are no multinationals where he lives and he cant afford to go to another part of the country to participate in the scheme as he is flat broke.

Jobsbride advertisements may say no experience is required but I have heard form people who had interviews for jobs on the scheme that the employer was looking for staff with it so what is the point.

After you complete the jobsbride you can take up another position so if you have looked for a job and had interviews before the scheme finishes and have no job lined up its back on the dole. People were told that by social welfare.

christmas2012

yore is hell bent on advertising jobbridge as a good thing,its a job blocker.It hogs up what could be a paid job,it sucks what could be a paid job right out of the community,it creates unemployment,and perpetuates those unemployed to even longer unemployment,the hiring rate of FAS was almost negligable,with jobbridge at the first roll out was not even 400 out of 7000,and they didnt elaborate on what capacity these people were 'employed' on the free labour scheme..

christmas2012

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056636577

heres a thread that i have seen on boards .ie this person was turned away from jobbridge for not having 'enough experience',which shows the main aim of jobbridge is free labour..

Lisa2011

christmas2012 wrote: »

yore is hell bent on advertising jobbridge as a good thing,its a job blocker.It hogs up what could be a paid job,it sucks what could be a paid job right out of the community,it creates unemployment,and perpetuates those unemployed to even longer unemployment,the hiring rate of FAS was almost negligable,with jobbridge at the first roll out was not even 400 out of 7000,and they didnt elaborate on what capacity these people were 'employed' on the free labour scheme..

I totally agree that its a job blocker. Multinationals have the money to pay an employee and yet there is one in cork who wants to hire staff for free. I am sick of saying that people have lost their jobs because of it being set up and as such no time limit on the dole should ever exist.

christmas2012

I think whats worse is that there are people going around saying its a good thing,it cant be a positive development if jobbridge is used a a free labour tool for big tax evading multi nationals,also the government use it to make the dole stats look good,(which i think is very dishonest)when the reality is it creates unemployment,i mean who is going to turn around and pay full rate of wage,with these guys in the way..
I think it is inhumane to have a time limit on the dole also,because of the current recession,there are lots of people who do not choose to be on the dole,and every circumstance is individual..

jonnny68

hondasam wrote: »

It is time social welfare fraud was stopped, anyone signing on for more than six months should have to explain themselves.
I would go as far as to say after six months on the dole payments should be reduced.

i assume you haven't been out of work then in Ireland in the last few years, what a crock of sh*t you spout, there are thousands of people searching for so few little jobs so if they cant get anythging within a 6 month time frame they should be penalised.

Jesus wept:rolleyes:

Lisa2011

If the dole was cut every six months because you got no job that was prevent some form of recovery and would mean less money going back into the economy. Do people here not realize you need money to pay all these new taxes and charges and that is why people want jobs.I am sick of saying this that the majority of private sector businesses rely on banks to support them and if that is not happening how can people get off the dole and get jobs. many people are applying for sales assistant jobs with vodafone and are being turned down because the employer knows its not the job they want or are scared that their employees will walk away.

There are alot of Irish who will do the jobs that foreigners are doing but employers take the foreigners on as they know they will work for very little.

My cousin was sacked and told his was job was being given to a foreigner so how can the Irish come off the dole with attitudes like this. The older you are the tougher it is to get back into work as younger staff is wanted so how to deal with this situation is the big question.

fianna saor

Lisa2011 wrote: »

If the dole was cut every six months because you got no job that was prevent some form of recovery and would mean less money going back into the economy. Do people here not realize you need money to pay all these new taxes and charges and that is why people want jobs.I am sick of saying this that the majority of private sector businesses rely on banks to support them and if that is not happening how can people get off the dole and get jobs. many people are applying for sales assistant jobs with vodafone and are being turned down because the employer knows its not the job they want or are scared that their employees will walk away.

There are alot of Irish who will do the jobs that foreigners are doing but employers take the foreigners on as they know they will work for very little.

My cousin was sacked and told his was job was being given to a foreigner so how can the Irish come off the dole with attitudes like this. The older you are the tougher it is to get back into work as younger staff is wanted so how to deal with this situation is the big question.

non irish citizens should definately have a time limit on the dole, if they do not find employment within say six months they should be deported.

Cee-Jay-Cee

I have absolutely no problem with people getting dole but they should be made to do something in return. The streets and roads of this country are littered with rubbish, there are endless buildings in poor run down state that require painting, Town parks need tidying, Make anyone on the dole over a year do 3 or 4 hours work every other day in return for their dole. Why should they get money for nothing. This would in turn help cut dole fraud as it will interfere with those also working from continuing to do so and claim the dole at the same time. If people fail to turn up then their dole will be docked accordingly and if they refuse to take part then cut their dole completely.

mattjack

fianna saor wrote: »

non irish citizens should definately have a time limit on the dole, if they do not find employment within say six months they should be deported.

We could give them a good beating too at the airport and maybe brand them as well.

My cousins wife is Polish and unemployed , I reckon she should be thrown out and my neighbours husband is Spanish , in fact if I put my mind to it I could find loads to get rid of.

Fussy Eater

fianna saor wrote: »

non irish citizens should definately have a time limit on the dole, if they do not find employment within say six months they should be deported.

Ireland is in the EU which advocates freedom of movement for its member states' citizens. So suck it up.

fianna saor

Fussy Eater wrote: »

Ireland is in the EU which advocates freedom of movement for its member states' citizens. So suck it up.

for now....

what about every other nationality that is in this country sponging off our government?

mattjack

mattjack wrote: »

We could give them a good beating too at the airport and maybe brand them as well.

My cousins wife is Polish and unemployed , I reckon she should be thrown out and my neighbours husband is Spanish , in fact if I put my mind to it I could find loads to get rid of.

fianna saor wrote: »

for now....

what about every other nationality that is in this country sponging off our government?

I was being sarcastic

Jarren

fianna saor wrote: »

for now....

what about every other nationality that is in this country sponging off our government?

Go on.... about every other nationality.

fianna saor

Jarren wrote: »

Go on.... about every other nationality.

i was waiting on a reply from fussy eater who must think all foreign nationals in this country are european

Ms Tootsie

Kirby wrote: »

They still do this. You have to fill out a form every six months or so and provide written proof of failed applications, interviews etc.

Honestly, the militant "Spungerrrrs on da dole" brigade that show their faces everytime a thread like this rolls around are obviously already in employment. It's very, very easy to have a go at people struggling when you have a job yourself. Put yourselvs in their shoes for a minute please everyone before the flaming begins.

In the UK and the north of Ireland you have to provide proof of job searching for at least 3 jobs every two weeks. Perhaps introducing something similar here would make it easier to weed out those people who are on the dole because they waant to be. I genuinely believe the majority of the people currently on the dole would rather be working. I know I would be. But we have to face facts and realise that there are people out there that blatently take advantage of the system. A time limit won't sort this problem but perhaps introducing the requirement to regularly provide proof of job hunting would.

B0jangles

kaza2710 wrote: »

In the UK and the north of Ireland you have to provide proof of job searching for at least 3 jobs every two weeks. Perhaps introducing something similar here would make it easier to weed out those people who are on the dole because they waant to be. I genuinely believe the majority of the people currently on the dole would rather be working. I know I would be. But we have to face facts and realise that there are people out there that blatently take advantage of the system. A time limit won't sort this problem but perhaps introducing the requirement to regularly provide proof of job hunting would.

The way you usually apply for jobs has changed a lot; I know that when I was unemployed a lot of my job applications were submitted via webforms on employers websites, I frequently got no response at all from them, so no way of proving that I was jobhunting at all

fianna saor

kaza2710 wrote: »

In the UK and the north of Ireland you have to provide proof of job searching for at least 3 jobs every two weeks. Perhaps introducing something similar here would make it easier to weed out those people who are on the dole because they waant to be. I genuinely believe the majority of the people currently on the dole would rather be working. I know I would be. But we have to face facts and realise that there are people out there that blatently take advantage of the system. A time limit won't sort this problem but perhaps introducing the requirement to regularly provide proof of job hunting would.

they've done that for years, people went around with a form getting shop owners etc to sign it to say they were looking for a job there, ive actually known employers who offered some of these people jobs and they refused. of course there are people taking advantage of the system if their money were to be reduced gradually do you really think they would stay on the dole? and genuine cases would be easier to screen due to smaller numbers of claimants

Ms Tootsie

It is such a pity that there are people out there who would turn down the offer of a job and yet expect the person offering it to vouch for them.

fianna saor

kaza2710 wrote: »

It is such a pity that there are people out there who would turn down the offer of a job and yet expect the person offering it to vouch for them.

like i say its been that way for years, no offence but theres actually a lot of naiveity in our society regarding fraud for one

TwoShedsJackson

CJC999 wrote: »

I have absolutely no problem with people getting dole but they should be made to do something in return. The streets and roads of this country are littered with rubbish, there are endless buildings in poor run down state that require painting, Town parks need tidying, Make anyone on the dole over a year do 3 or 4 hours work every other day in return for their dole. Why should they get money for nothing. This would in turn help cut dole fraud as it will interfere with those also working from continuing to do so and claim the dole at the same time. If people fail to turn up then their dole will be docked accordingly and if they refuse to take part then cut their dole completely.

Exactly, punish people for circumstances that are usually beyond their control.

Ms Tootsie

TwoShedsJackson wrote: »

Exactly, punish people for circumstances that are usually beyond their control.

I wouldnt call it punishment. If someone is on the dole and they have no desire to be I am sure they would have no objection to working a few hours and 'earning their keep'. It is the minortiy of people who abuse the system who would have some problem with working for their dole.

TwoShedsJackson

kaza2710 wrote: »

I wouldnt call it punishment. If someone is on the dole and they have no desire to be I am sure they would have no objection to working a few hours and 'earning their keep'. It is the minortiy of people who abuse the system who would have some problem with working for their dole.

They already 'earned their keep' by paying taxes whilst they were working. Obviously there is a small percentage of people abusing the system, but you are always going to get that: as a long as a system exists in a democratic state, some element will abuse it.

Why is it always menial crap like repainting derelict buildings and picking up rubbish that are deemed fit for people on the dole to do? Last time I checked some portion of my taxes go to local authorities, they should be picking up rubbish and clearing up derelict sites.

fianna saor

why do people assume its only a small percentage that are fraudulent dole recipients, obviously there are no figures to prove either way but i would hazard an educated guess that the percentage is a lot higher than a lot of people think

mattjack

fianna saor wrote: »

why do people assume its only a small percentage that are fraudulent dole recipients, obviously there are no figures to prove either way but i would hazard an educated guess that the percentage is a lot higher than a lot of people think

Give us your guess ?

fianna saor

mattjack wrote: »

Give us your guess ?

tbh it would be pointless me even trying to put a figure on it, i just think its a lot higher than most peoples assumption

mattjack

fianna saor wrote: »

tbh it would be pointless me even trying to put a figure on it, i just think its a lot higher than most peoples assumption

The figure for full employment in society is around 96/97% , this takes into account for example contract workers who work from contract to contract and are happy being between jobs from time to time , alongside some people who do not actually want to work like you suggested... 4% or so..

so today with our unemployment rate being 14.8% .. acknowledging that there are some who are actually better off unemployed and working in the black economy, not exactly their fault .. with rent allowance,med cards etc.. I doubt very much that there are many people who prefer being being unemployed and doing absolutely nothing...

mattjack

fianna saor wrote: »

tbh it would be pointless me even trying to put a figure on it, i just think its a lot higher than most peoples assumption

You know what... I read your post completely wrong.....

I tip my hat to you sir.

SHOVELLER

Obviously now is not the time to impose time limits for unemployment payments. But when we technically had full employment a few years ago we still had more than 100,000 claiming. That is a disgrace. There was literally jobs for everyone back then so I have little sympathy there.

Fraud, sadly, is endemic in social welfare. As an example I would say half of the taxi drivers are out there working and claiming.

The whole system is rotten to the core and will never be repaired.

The U.S. model is the one we should aspire to.

Fussy Eater

fianna saor wrote: »

i was waiting on a reply from fussy eater who must think all foreign nationals in this country are european

Pfft. I've lived in a few countries and Ireland is easily the most homogenized of them. Want to just send the darkies home then do you?

Odysseus

kaza2710 wrote: »

I wouldnt call it punishment. If someone is on the dole and they have no desire to be I am sure they would have no objection to working a few hours and 'earning their keep'. It is the minortiy of people who abuse the system who would have some problem with working for their dole.

Right so, say they are cleaning up estates, roads, etc, who is going to pay for the PPE they would need, safety boots, hi-Vis gear and of course there would have to be someone to supervise them.

Smidge

SHOVELLER wrote: »

Obviously now is not the time to impose time limits for unemployment payments. But when we technically had full employment a few years ago we still had more than 100,000 claiming. That is a disgrace. There was literally jobs for everyone back then so I have little sympathy there.

Fraud, sadly, is endemic in social welfare. As an example I would say half of the taxi drivers are out there working and claiming.

The whole system is rotten to the core and will never be repaired.

The U.S. model is the one we should aspire to.[/QUOTE]

I agree.
We should also adopt their healthcare system which seems great
Oh wait.....................

Yamanoto

hondasam wrote: »

anyone signing on for more than six months should have to explain themselves.

Ditto anyone posting 27,990 times over a 2 year period.

SHOVELLER

SHOVELLER wrote: »

The U.S. model is the one we should aspire to.

Doesn't the U.S. have serious problems with poverty and homelessness???


To be honest, I don't see who's going to benefit from cutting the dole over time. Those who genuinely need it will suffer and those who are getting it wrongfully will still be getting it wrongfully.

I'd prefer if people on the dole were spot-checked by an investigator as frequently as possible. Even just the money we'd gain by being able to rule out the majority of people claiming from abroad, claiming under other people's names, people lying about where they live or doing illegal work would be enough to make a substantial difference to the state of things, and it would probably pay for itself.

TwoShedsJackson

fianna saor wrote: »

why do people assume its only a small percentage that are fraudulent dole recipients, obviously there are no figures to prove either way but i would hazard an educated guess that the percentage is a lot higher than a lot of people think

Your guess isn't educated at all, you're just guessing. I guess it's less than you think, so where does that get us?