House now at affordable levels!

Sand Wedge

Article in todays independent.ie claiming houses are now at affordable levels in Ireland. Can anyone tell me were you can buy one of these supposed houses that cost only 3.4 times the average salary in Dublin. Based on average salary of €40k(which is a high estimate). Where can you buy a house for €136k?


http://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/property-mortgages/house-prices-now-at-affordable-level-for-average-earners-2997199.html

kennyb3

I better buy 2 before we run out of stock of these amazing houses

Sand Wedge

Sand Wedge wrote: »

Article in todays independent.ie claiming houses are now at affordable levels in Ireland. Can anyone tell me were you can buy one of these supposed houses that cost only 3.4 times the average salary in Dublin. Based on average salary of €40k(which is a high estimate). Where can you buy a house for €136k?


http://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/property-mortgages/house-prices-now-at-affordable-level-for-average-earners-2997199.html

Even worse actually the average salary they indicated is €36,000 - perhaps higher in the city.

I still see 3 Bed 96 sqm houses in parts of south Dublin for between 360 - 400k with estate agents saying they expect more than the asking price.

To be fair - plenty of Agents are being more reasonable, but asking prices are still silly in many areas, esp the estates my wife and I are looking in.

This article means nothing to me as the house prices they are talking about are over half the value of the properties I'm interested in - so I guess I must live on another planet.

CashMoney

There's loads of houses in Dublin for 136k

A quick search on myhome returns 91 pages of properties (including a lot of houses) for under 150k...

smallerthanyou

From the article I think there's a built in assumption that the buyer has a 20% deposit so at 3.4 times salary can afford 170k or at 3 times salary 150k. There are a lot of houses at these prices but few in areas I want to buy so I'll keep on saving for another while.

boardie100

i guess the affordability is there if you are on a good wage....but in the article they mention having a 30k deposit.... how many people have that kind of money?...


also is 36k a little high for average wage in dublin?

Johnny Bitte

boardie100 wrote: »

i guess the affordability is there if you are on a good wage....but in the article they mention having a 30k deposit.... how many people have that kind of money?...


also is 36k a little high for average wage in dublin?

Average as in the top dogs earning hundreds of thousands bringing it up

Ah no but seriously there are those out there that have been saving and might just have the deposit and also anything that wakes up the owners to bring down the prices so they might actualy sell is a good thing.

I know there are those that say it has still to hit rock bottom but is there the possibleity of a middle ground?
As in the prices come to a place between the insane highes they met in the boom and the historic prices they were before the boom.

If the boom never happened and taking into account a more gradual increase in prices rather than the leap off the cliff, what would the average price be, surely not what they were before the boom

As you can see, I like writing boom

shangri la

Who wrote the article?

what is their history of property related articles?

gigino

Sand Wedge wrote: »

Article in todays independent.ie claiming houses are now at affordable levels in Ireland.l

Some property is now at affordable prices in Ireland. The banks are selling off some semi-detached houses for 50 to 60 k in parts of the country. As said before, if you want to compare wages to property prices in Ireland we have to find statistics for that. Lets not forget public sector wages were benchmarked to private sector some years ago, so lets choose average public sector salary which is € 48,000 per year according to the CSO. www.cso.ie We could choose average private sector salary but statistics on that would be less reliable / more open to debate. Now lets look at what you can buy new 2 bedroom apartments for in ordinary, middle Ireland. You can get them for not just less than 48k, not just less than 38k but less than 30k even.
http://www.daft.ie/searchsale.daft?id=631593
http://www.daft.ie/searchsale.daft?id=614632
http://www.daft.ie/searchsale.daft?id=613282
http://www.daft.ie/searchsale.daft?id=630903
http://www.daft.ie/searchsale.daft?id=629156
http://www.daft.ie/searchsale.daft?id=629383
http://www.daft.ie/searchsale.daft?id=627468

The above are asking prices from Donegal to Waterford city, Louth to Leitrim to Wexford etc. Sale prices may be less that than even, as any auctioneer in todays climate will tell you. Now, what other country in the world could you buy a new 2-bedroom apartment, guilt to Irish government standards, for as little as 7 ot 8 months ( not years ) average salary ? This suggests to me that property prices are already very low in many parts of the country - but Dublin prices have some distance to fall yet.

zac8

gigino wrote: »

Now, what other country in the world could you buy a new 2-bedroom apartment, guilt to Irish government standards, for as little as 7 ot 8 months ( not years ) average salary ?

Germany

Coriolanus

Built to Irish government standards isn't a selling point.

jobless

gigino wrote: »

Some property is now at affordable prices in Ireland. The banks are selling off some semi-detached houses for 50 to 60 k in parts of the country. As said before, if you want to compare wages to property prices in Ireland we have to find statistics for that. Lets not forget public sector wages were benchmarked to private sector some years ago, so lets choose average public sector salary which is € 48,000 per year according to the CSO. www.cso.ie We could choose average private sector salary but statistics on that would be less reliable / more open to debate. Now lets look at what you can buy new 2 bedroom apartments for in ordinary, middle Ireland. You can get them for not just less than 48k, not just less than 38k but less than 30k even.
http://www.daft.ie/searchsale.daft?id=631593
http://www.daft.ie/searchsale.daft?id=614632
http://www.daft.ie/searchsale.daft?id=613282
http://www.daft.ie/searchsale.daft?id=630903
http://www.daft.ie/searchsale.daft?id=629156
http://www.daft.ie/searchsale.daft?id=629383
http://www.daft.ie/searchsale.daft?id=627468

The above are asking prices from Donegal to Waterford city, Louth to Leitrim to Wexford etc. Sale prices may be less that than even, as any auctioneer in todays climate will tell you. Now, what other country in the world could you buy a new 2-bedroom apartment, guilt to Irish government standards, for as little as 7 ot 8 months ( not years ) average salary ? This suggests to me that property prices are already very low in many parts of the country - but Dublin prices have some distance to fall yet.

rehash of this thread

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056508690

you must have some apartments your trying to get shut of judging by some of the others threads youve commented on...

Spiritofthekop

Lost for words.

Sand Wedge

The article refers to houses not apartments. If you take the premise of the article then you would have to take it that they are saying that houses in an average area in Dublin are down to under €150k. I see no evidence of this. Yes there are houses below this level but knot in what would be considered average areas. Most 3 beds that are in average areas are still around the €300k mark!

gurramok

CashMoney wrote: »

There's loads of houses in Dublin for 136k

A quick search on myhome returns 91 pages of properties (including a lot of houses) for under 150k...

Are they in dodgeville? They probably are.

Spiritofthekop

HILARIOUS!!!

The Independent have changed the banner on the link now!

Probably due to all the comments they were getting on the link at the bottom

It reads now...

"First time Dublin house prices below €200k since 2000"

Were before it was something about "Houses being affordable now for people"

Wile E. Coyote

Sand Wedge wrote: »

Article in todays independent.ie claiming houses are now at affordable levels in Ireland. Can anyone tell me were you can buy one of these supposed houses that cost only 3.4 times the average salary in Dublin. Based on average salary of €40k(which is a high estimate). Where can you buy a house for €136k?

http://www.myhome.ie/residential/dublin/property-for-sale?maxprice=150000&sort=price

Well that wasn't too hard.....

royaler83

A drop of 17% last year, I can see the rate of decline slowing alright but they will drop by roughly 10% this year imho.

Zamboni

CashMoney wrote: »

There's loads of houses in Dublin for 136k

A quick search on myhome returns 91 pages of properties (including a lot of houses) for under 150k...

So a working person on an average salary can afford to buy...

Ooh a house in the biggest sh1tholes in Dublin beside scum in council housing?

Ooh a house in Lusk, Balbriggan or Portrane! Spend all your money on petrol/diesel or sitting on a DART for five hours a day.

Ooh a dog box apartment in a half decent area where you can spend money on crap property management agents and their fees.

That is what Ireland thinks of it average earning tax paying citizen.

ionapaul

On the other hand, as someone who's been interested in property prices for about a decade now (and commenting on boards about them since I joined!), it should be pointed out that many, many people just don't see clearly when it comes to distinguishing an 'average house in Dublin'. An 'average house' in Dublin is not a standard 3-bed semi in Clonskeagh, Terenure, Knocklyon, Milltown, Monkstown, etc etc... the prices for a standard 3-bed semi in those areas are always, ALWAYS, going to be higher than 3 times the average Irish salary. Let alone 3 times the average Dublin salary, which must be much higher than the average salary nationwide. Let alone 3 times the average salary of people seeking to buy in such parts of South Dublin (mid-level civil servants, professionals, and so on). Not to mention many of those seeking to buy are not single, but couples, with increased purchasing power, thus driving the price up further.

I think prices will continue to come down, but let's not fool ourselves - some areas will always be more expensive than others, and many of those areas that I for one would like to purchase in in South Dublin will never be particularly affordable to a single person on an average Irish salary. I imagine you'll be able to get houses like this one in Ballinteer for a little over €200K at some stage soon, just can't see much more room for drops though, not while two young teachers in their 30s can easily be pulling in more than €60K per annum combined and be in a position to buy it with a decent deposit...

Maybe pray for the CPA to be scrapped!

gigino

ionapaul wrote: »

On the other hand, as someone who's been interested in property prices for about a decade now (and commenting on boards about them since I joined!), it should be pointed out that many, many people just don't see clearly when it comes to distinguishing an 'average house in Dublin'. An 'average house' in Dublin is not a standard 3-bed semi in Clonskeagh, Terenure, Knocklyon, Milltown, Monkstown, etc etc... the prices for a standard 3-bed semi in those areas are always, ALWAYS, going to be higher than 3 times the average Irish salary. Let alone 3 times the average Dublin salary, which must be much higher than the average salary nationwide. Let alone 3 times the average salary of people seeking to buy in such parts of South Dublin (mid-level civil servants, professionals, and so on). Not to mention many of those seeking to buy are not single, but couples, with increased purchasing power, thus driving the price up further.

I think prices will continue to come down, but let's not fool ourselves - some areas will always be more expensive than others, and many of those areas that I for one would like to purchase in in South Dublin will never be particularly affordable to a single person on an average Irish salary. I imagine you'll be able to get houses like this one in Ballinteer for a little over €200K at some stage soon, just can't see much more room for drops though, not while two young teachers in their 30s can easily be pulling in more than €60K per annum combined and be in a position to buy it with a decent deposit...

Maybe pray for the CPA to be scrapped!

Well said. Select parts of south Dublin will always be more expensive than the rest of Ireland due to demand ( lots of public servants and professionals in Dublin ) and supply. The banks are selling off new houses in some areas for only 50 to 55k. You can buy a newly built 3 bedroom house in parts of Ireland though, meeting all modern regulations, for only about 55 weeks average public service salary. Never in history were houses so cheap for the nurse or teacher or Guard or civil servant. Can prices fall further ? IMHO houses + apartment currently between 39 and 100k will not fall much, but property at 300k to 500k will fall another 20% as the country is so badly organised / ran. The average couple pulling in 96k a year ( say 2 average public servants ) will find they can no longer afford a home between 3 and 5 times current joint salary. Because people have to live somewhere I do not expect property about 50 , 60, 80, 90 k to fall as much.

Zamboni

gigino wrote: »

The average couple pulling in 96k a year ( say 2 average public servants ) will find they can no longer afford a home between 3 and 5 times current joint salary. Because people have to live somewhere I do not expect property about 50 , 60, 80, 90 k to fall as much.

There is nothing average about a couple earning 96k.
You take figures out of context and purposely attempt to fool the reader to suit your argument. Are you a journalist?

gurramok

Zamboni wrote: »

So a working person on an average salary can afford to buy...

Ooh a house in the biggest sh1tholes in Dublin beside scum in council housing?

I'd second this. I grew up living beside some of the scummiest types around who ruined lives for their neighbours.

Why should people who have worked all their lives contributing to society only have the choice(based on prices) of only junkieville to live in?!

robd

The article is yet again another case of Association Fallacy. It's been going on for years in the print media with regard to house prices and various stats.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_fallacy

The comparison statement is:

All dogs have four legs; my cat has four legs. Therefore, my cat is a dog.

In regard to houses the current argument is something along the lines of:

House prices are down 60%. There is demand for 3/4 bed semi-d's in good areas of Dublin. Therefore 3/4 bed semi-d's are down 60% in value, in demand and represent good value for money. Buy them while you still can before they go up again in price.

Oh and an "expert" said so.

In reality:

Apartments and houses in places of the country with huge social problems or low populations are down 60%. No body wants them. 3/4 bed semi-d's in Dublin are in demand but they are only down a about 30/40% in price and are way overpriced so most people can't afford them.

gigino

Zamboni wrote: »

There is nothing average about a couple earning 96k.

Correct. However average public sector pay is currently € 48,000 per year ( source www.cso.ie ) , so its not too far fetched to suggest that if a couple is working and living in parts of south Dublin then they would be pulling in 96 k a year between them. Average Garda pay not too long ago was 60k. If his / her partner was a nurse or teacher what do you think their combined income is ? If you take a house worth 300k to 500k then that say 5 times pre-tax income : thats not sustainable , banks will not lend that. Not too long ago many ordinary enough people were living in houses they thought were worth 300 to 500k. Thats why prices in the 300k plus bracket will fall further. ...supply + demand.

Cool Mo D

Zamboni wrote: »

So a working person on an average salary can afford to buy...

Ooh a house in the biggest sh1tholes in Dublin beside scum in council housing?

Ooh a house in Lusk, Balbriggan or Portrane! Spend all your money on petrol/diesel or sitting on a DART for five hours a day.

Ooh a dog box apartment in a half decent area where you can spend money on crap property management agents and their fees.

There are plenty of houses in that list in places like Phibsboro, Killester, Drumcondra, and Rathfarnham, that could in no way be described as dodgy. A bit of snobbery there methinks, especially describing people living in council housing as "scum".

Zamboni wrote: »

That is what Ireland thinks of it average earning tax paying citizen.

What does this even mean?

jmayo

Nevore wrote: »

Built to Irish government standards isn't a selling point.

Post of the day methinks

Zamboni

Cool Mo D wrote: »

There are plenty of houses in that list in places like Phibsboro, Killester, Drumcondra, and Rathfarnham, that could in no way be described as dodgy. A bit of snobbery there methinks, especially describing people living in council housing as "scum".

The only 3 bed in Phibsboro on that list. Looks like it 1974.
http://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/3-st-ignatius-road-off-north-circular-road-phibsboro/1749865


This is one of two properies in Killester on that list.
The other is an apartment.
http://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/110-collins-avenue-east-killester-dublin-5/1760854


This is what €150k gets you in Drumcondra.
http://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/82-walsh-road-drumcondra-dublin-9/1617393

Rathfarnham throws up houses in Whitechurch - Generally regarded as one of the worst estates east of the the M50.


I have lived in three of those four places and they are fine.
But the available properties are the bottom of the market which all need work.
Regarding snobbery, I think a working tax paying citizen should be able to afford to live in a property of a higher standard than a life long social welfare recipient.
That's not snobbery, that's capitalism.

gurramok

Cool Mo D wrote: »

There are plenty of houses in that list in places like Phibsboro, Killester, Drumcondra, and Rathfarnham, that could in no way be described as dodgy. A bit of snobbery there methinks, especially describing people living in council housing as "scum".

You sure about those areas that are in the list? The vast majority on offer in that list(about 470) were not in those areas and only 10% of the entire list imho would really be attractive to buyers to live in if you consider some of those results returned the famous line 'in need of modernisation'.

The_Conductor

gigino wrote: »

Well said. Select parts of south Dublin will always be more expensive than the rest of Ireland due to demand ( lots of public servants and professionals in Dublin ) and supply.

Yes- parts of South Dublin (and indeed areas of Cork, Galway and our other cities) are always going to be in higher demand than other areas- because more people want to live there than there is availability.
Where/why do you imagine that public servants and professionals make up more than a minority of the demographic living in the area? Check the provisional CSO figures- there are significantly more students than there are public sector and professionals, living in South Dublin- and if you read the annual reports of some of our major pension funds- they appear to own significantly more property (by number of units) than do private individuals, period. I actually imagine there are more retirees in the more affluent areas of South Dublin, than any other demographic category (though I only have the 2006 figures to go on).
Also- what is your fascination with public sector employees? You seem to have some sort of a perverse hatred of them. They're entitled to live where-ever they can afford to live- if there are indeed significant numbers of them living in the area (which I challenge you to prove), in common with many younger residents in the area, they may well be living in inherited property. It never was the case that public sector employees could afford property in Dublin 4 or 6- even going back looking at historic figures from the 1970s and 1980s.

gigino wrote: »

The banks are selling off new houses in some areas for only 50 to 55k.

Unfortunately this doesn't mean an awful lot. The banks are pricing to market- they are not in the business of loosing money and are trying to maximise their returns in the current market. If property in a particular area is being sold for 50-55k (and if you look you'll find property for even lower than this)- the asking price is merely a reflection of the lack of demand for the property- nothing more, nothing less.

gigino wrote: »

You can buy a newly built 3 bedroom house in parts of Ireland though, meeting all modern regulations, for only about 55 weeks average public service salary.

Nothing unusual here- I bet I could look at any country in Europe and find similar- and if you go global- in parts of the US, you can get property free from municipalities, if you agree to pay annual property tax (its being pushed as a regeneration/gentrification attempt in Detroit, and parts of New York state for example). So what that you can get a house for 55 weeks gross salary- is it in a location that people are willing to live in, and can utilise as a PPR? Are there facilities and amenities in the area? Are there school places for a young family? Are there public transport links? Is it within a viable commute for work? Is it close to family and friends? As my 2 year old likes to say- No, no, no, no, no, no, no (and we're not talking about eating our vegetables- we're talking about buying a house that we can make our home........)

gigino wrote: »

Never in history were houses so cheap for the nurse or teacher or Guard or civil servant.

What is your hangup over nurses/teachers/the Gardai/ civil servants and other public sector employees? If you factor in all salary deductions (and presume they don't have private health insurance for the purpose of these deductions)- your average 48k salary for a public sector employee is in fact a little under 550 a week net. A bank or building society will lend you a mortgage, the repayments of which should equal a max of 35% of your net income. This is sufficient to support a mortgage of 150-160k (at EUR775 repayments a month on a 35 year mortgage). Add in creche fees as your public sector employee has 1 theoretical child- and they're down to 200 or less a week from which they have to pay everything else....... Hardly the life of Reilly that you seem to think most of them are on.......

gigino wrote: »

Can prices fall further ? IMHO houses + apartment currently between 39 and 100k will not fall much, but property at 300k to 500k will fall another 20% as the country is so badly organised / ran.

Whether the country is well organised or not- has very little to do with property prices- as our boom and bust has amply displayed. Cost of ownership alongside demand and supply considerations- do however. An increasing property tax, alongside water and other charges, along with lack of supply of credit- will depress prices. Suggesting a current price indicates that property x cannot fall further- is naive- of course it can. Will it fall 10 or 15%- who knows? The economic portents are not good- that is all I can say.

gigino wrote: »

The average couple pulling in 96k a year ( say 2 average public servants ) will find they can no longer afford a home between 3 and 5 times current joint salary. Because people have to live somewhere I do not expect property about 50 , 60, 80, 90 k to fall as much.

Average couple pulling in 96k a year? Really? Please tell the Revenue Commissioners their dreams have come true........ Perhaps a sizeable minority of couples may have grossed this during the boom- but they were not public sector employees, and they're certainly not getting it now. You're dreaming if you think an average couple are clearing 96k........

desertcircus

gigino wrote: »

Correct. However average public sector pay is currently € 48,000 per year ( source www.cso.ie ) , so its not too far fetched to suggest that if a couple is working and living in parts of south Dublin then they would be pulling in 96 k a year between them. Average Garda pay not too long ago was 60k. If his / her partner was a nurse or teacher what do you think their combined income is ? If you take a house worth 300k to 500k then that say 5 times pre-tax income : thats not sustainable , banks will not lend that. Not too long ago many ordinary enough people were living in houses they thought were worth 300 to 500k. Thats why prices in the 300k plus bracket will fall further. ...supply + demand.

Cannot find your data; do you have a more specific link than the entirety of the work of the Central Statistics Office?

Also: average public sector pay isn't a sensible metric for determining house prices in the current environment - because the average public sector worker has been in their job for about 22 years and is in their early forties, and has most likely long since entered the housing market.

Furthermore: why are you comparing to public sector pay specifically? I believe this isn't the first time I've seen you discussing the current state of Irish property sales with highly specific reference to public sector pay. It's not the most relevant data point for discussing property prices by a long shot (beaten by, among other things, bank debt deleveraging, the levels of required deposit, net immigration levels, the current overhang of property, negative equity and unrealistic pricing).