beef price tracker

Dunedin

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I do not feed any ration in the shed to stores they get silage only. My silage is goodish but generally I try to get it high in dry matter as I find store do better on it and it is cheaper to make.

Interested in this. The guidance and general advice would always be to give a kilo or so to stores.

I have being doing this for the past few years and without any exact science on it i.e.weighing cattle, I feel they do very well from it.

It would be weanlings and year and a halves that would be finished following Autumn off the grass.
interested in other peoples thoughts/experience.

Robson99

Dunedin wrote: »

Interested in this. The guidance and general advice would always be to give a kilo or so to stores.

I have being doing this for the past few years and without any exact science on it i.e.weighing cattle, I feel they do very well from it.

It would be weanlings and year and a halves that would be finished following Autumn off the grass.
interested in other peoples thoughts/experience.

2 or 3 kg rolled barley well worth giving stores over the winter. 40 or 50 cent a day well spent imo

Muckit

If an animal is getting supplementary feeding there's no question but that they will have higher DWGs during that period. But it all costs money and 40c x by no of days fed x no of animals doesn't be long making it all add up. It would really need to be leaving significant results long-term.

I have attached a few pages from teagasc beef production publication that lads may be interested in.

A few costings...

Let's say the ration used cost €200/tonne (which would be cheap)

Feeding 2.3kg @ 20c/kg =46c/day
Over 148day winter = ~€68

So 22kg of extra weight gain over 12mths compared to those fed no meal cost €68 or €3/kg LW. Is this cost efficient?

Now it's worth mentioning that the silage in the example @ 72DMD would be better quality than what many lads might have in their yard.

Robson99

Muckit wrote: »

If an animal is getting supplementary feeding there's no question but that they will have higher DWGs during that period. But it all costs money and 40c x by no of days fed x no of animals doesn't be long making it all add up. It would really need to be leaving significant results long-term.

I have attached a few pages from teagasc beef production publication that lads may be interested in.

A few costings...

Let's say the ration used cost €200/tonne (which would be cheap)

Feeding 2.3kg @ 20c/kg =46c/day
Over 148day winter = ~€68

So 22kg of extra weight gain over 12mths compared to those fed no meal cost €68 or €3/kg LW. Is this cost efficient?

Now it's worth mentioning that the silage in the example @ 72DMD would be better quality than what many lads might have in their yard.

Dont believe everything Teagasc comes out with.
40 cent by 120 days is 48 euro. I think you will see the difference

Muckit

Robson99 wrote: »

Dont believe everything Teagasc comes out with.
40 cent by 120 days is 48 euro. I think you will see the difference

Oh l wouldn't!

But you would at least have to agree that you have a short winter. The example uses weanlings. Weanlings would be more efficient than stores. Your stores would want to be doing more than an extra 22kg LW over the year (not just the winter) just to break even @ €4 kg beef price.

Why give yourself an extra job in the winter if you are not getting paid for it?

Bass Reeves

My attitude to supplemenry feeding of dairy bred stores is for the best of them it is just about breakeven. It is hard to justify with Friesian. With a conversion rate of over 10-1 it will cost 2 .50+ to add a kg of LW which if you convert to DW is costing over 5/kg so we are giving Larry beef that not only is there no profit on it is extra beef that is competing against us.

If you wanted to supplement silage you want something to balance it with s ration or nut that is 16%+ in protein. I do feed mineral's to all cattle on top of the silage it costs 6c/ head.

Danzy

Sorry Bass, regarding those Stores when would you be looking at killing them.

I have a number of Friesian Bullocks, born Feb 16 and will kill next year. the silage is reasonably good and I was thinking about giving them ration, will I bepissing against the wind doing so, I think it can only help but would like to hear your thoughts.

Just in case you are talking about heavy stores.

Fireside Solicitor

Bass do u feed minerals to stores and finishing cattle as well? Have fed it to weanlings but just keep the stores on silage. Agree with u on the high protein ration - expensive where we are but does a great job. Unfortunately I think u can cut the figures down to the last cent but think of the costs your not including - machinery, sheds, insurance, vet, fencing, profit/your time. Load all these in and see how it looks.

On tagasc I think they can be great at all the science and then no good for how u actually make a living out of it - well that's my view from the advisor around here

Bass Reeves

Danzy wrote: »

Sorry Bass, regarding those Stores when would you be looking at killing them.

I have a number of Friesian Bullocks, born Feb 16 and will kill next year. the silage is reasonably good and I was thinking about giving them ration, will I bepissing against the wind doing so, I think it can only help but would like to hear your thoughts.

Just in case you are talking about heavy stores.

The stores I buy for finishing next year are 2016 cattle I have twenty I bought as weanlings last year (some coloured cattle) and I have bought 30 lightish stores (320-400kgs) over the last month. I intend to slaughter as many as possible in June/July next year. Neighbour killed light FR this July killing 290-330kgs he flat priced them at 4/kg and averaged 1275ish euro. He fed them straight barley from early May. He bought it in bags by the pallet delivered at 210/ton. Barley cost him30/head.

Fireside Solicitor wrote: »

Bass do u feed minerals to stores and finishing cattle as well? Have fed it to weanlings but just keep the stores on silage. Agree with u on the high protein ration - expensive where we are but does a great job. Unfortunately I think u can cut the figures down to the last cent but think of the costs your not including - machinery, sheds, insurance, vet, fencing, profit/your time. Load all these in and see how it looks.

On tagasc I think they can be great at all the science and then no good for how u actually make a living out of it - well that's my view from the advisor around here

Yes I feed minerals to all cattle over the winter as well as limestone flour(calcium) and I have used the rock salt as well. In total thiswill cost 10-12c/head/day. Teagasc do there figure's like the FJ on reseeded ground on flat figures and most of there reserch is based on suckler bred cattle. They are not doing figures on lads buying poorly done stores.

They also assume that cattle make the same price all year around. For the last two years the price for finished cattle was virtually the same from Mid October to after Christmass. In 2015 it was 3.9/kg in 2016 it was 3.7-3.8/kg. You are at nothing finishing cattle over the winter with a base sub 4/kg IMO.

Polishing them off jsut to keep numbers up we are at the same place that milk lads were at before they reverted to milkimg as much as possible off grass. If Larry and co want calle finished then let them pay us for it. I saw figures where lads that kill sub 30 cattle /winter put over 50% of the numbers into the factory's

We are paying through the nose for expensive ration, making expensive silage and getting SFA for it.

CHOPS01

Have 10 Hex here at the moment pretty much almost ready to go.
Debating whether I shift them in the next fortnight or so out of the field. But with prices down am thinking of hlolding them a little longer.They are good growthy type and should carry another 20/30kg LW before having to worry about being over fat.
Am I wasting money if I was to feed them 3/4kg of a 16%nut for 3 weeks let's say starting next week.

kk.man

CHOPS01 wrote: »

Have 10 Hex here at the moment pretty much almost ready to go.
Debating whether I shift them in the next fortnight or so out of the field. But with prices down am thinking of hlolding them a little longer.They are good growthy type and should carry another 20/30kg LW before having to worry about being over fat.
Am I wasting money if I was to feed them 3/4kg of a 16%nut for 3 weeks let's say starting next week.

I understand your prediment ...it's a crystal ball in short...34k plus kill last week

Muckit

CHOPS01 wrote: »

Have 10 Hex...
Am I wasting money if I was to feed them 3/4kg of a 16%nut for 3 weeks let's say starting next week.

The first thing that jumps out at me is you talking about protein. You really don't need to worry about this for finishing cattle as they only require around 12-14%. Grass alone will supply this. Most silage should even test around the 12%.

It's energy value IN a concentrate that u want to be looking at. The energy in grass declines rapidly at this time of year. Most bagstuff won't show the energy value because they don't have to by law. Don't be fooled by flashy advertising and packaging 'Super' this and 'supreme' that don't account for much in terms of nuitrition!!

Stick to straight rolled barley would be my bit of advice. Even if u are paying the same price/tonne as fancy bagstuff you are getting more bang for your buck.

whelan2

11 year old Angus bull. U2 528 kg@ €2.80= 1479

wiggy123

done good Whelan.. looking a angus bull now? haha

whelan2

wiggy123 wrote: »

done good Whelan.. looking a angus bull now? haha

Do ya know of any good ones...... he got no meal. He didn't owe us anything

wiggy123

to true-he did great job for ye's! ah few bulls floating about :-)

patsy_mccabe

whelan2 wrote: »

11 year old Angus bull. U2 528 kg@ €2.80= 1479

Canadian breeding? What was his calving figure on ICBF?

whelan2

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Canadian breeding? What was his calving figure on ICBF?

calving index figure of 20 euro , ye out of lissard mark, has bang breeding on other side

riemann

Lads anyone hear what Ballyhaunis are paying base for in spec steers this week?

Dozer1

got the docket back from 1st heifer I've sent to Larry in a few years
307Kgs @ €4.08 inc bonus came into €1256 think she was an R+
pic of her a few pages back, happy enough.

Bought her last May for €790 to breed from but didn't work out, never saw a nut from the day she arrived.

FeelTheBern

Dozer1 wrote: »

got the docket back from 1st heifer I've sent to Larry in a few years
307Kgs @ €4.08 inc bonus came into €1256 think she was an R+
pic of her a few pages back, happy enough.

Bought her last May for €790 to breed from but didn't work out, never saw a nut from the day she arrived.

Think I was suggesting she was heading towards the fat side at the time !! - just wondering what her fat score was?

Bass Reeves

FeelTheBern wrote: »

Think I was suggesting she was heading towards the fat side at the time !! - just wondering what her fat score was?

She was 4= at worst as she seems to have got the QA unless she was flat prices. 3.9 base +12c QA and 6c for R+

FeelTheBern

Bass Reeves wrote: »

She was 4+ at worst as she seems to have got the QA unless she was flat prices. 3.9 base +12c QA and 6c for R+

Would she not have been outside QA spec at 4+? Thought 4= would have been max she could have been to get that.

Bass Reeves

FeelTheBern wrote: »

Would she not have been outside QA spec at 4+? Thought 4= would have been max she could have been to get that.

Sorry 4= held down the shift key when putting it in

FeelTheBern

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Sorry 4= held down the shift key when putting it in

Sound. Unfortunately I'm only familiar with this after having a 4+ of my own recently ..😥

Dozer1

r+ 3+ so close enough to too fat 3.90 base

Bass Reeves

Dozer1 wrote: »

r+ 3+ so close enough to too fat 3.90 base

I consider that a bit off overfat. She would have carried another month of feeding. However if she was killed a month ago she would have came into the same money if not more. Would she have killed 290 kgs 4-5 weeks ago.

MIKEKC

whelan2 wrote: »

Do ya know of any good ones...... he got no meal. He didn't owe us anything

Would you not be hoping that he would leave a profit?

Muckit

Stock bull

Dozer1

I wouldn't be used to judging finished cattle she stopped growing up and started fattening pretty quick.

Plan was to sell her live with a younger larger batch as I haven't time to go mart more regularly

darragh_haven

Sent 20 bullocks and 8 heifers away this morning. Agent had booked them in and didnt tell us till saturday. Said they were dropping 5 cent if thry aren't in this morning and anothe 5 cent drop next week.
Rang a different hauler and he he couldn't match the price. Sent them away anyway as it looks like the factories are using the decline in sterling to cut the sh1te out of price

Pidae.m

darragh_haven wrote: »

Sent 20 bullocks and 8 heifers away this morning. Agent had booked them in and didnt tell us till saturday. Said they were dropping 5 cent if thry aren't in this morning and anothe 5 cent drop next week.
Rang a different hauler and he he couldn't match the price. Sent them away anyway as it looks like the factories are using the decline in sterling to cut the sh1te out of price

He done you a good turn. Ya looking like another cut again this week. Squeaky bum time!

Cavanjack

darragh_haven wrote: »

Sent 20 bullocks and 8 heifers away this morning. Agent had booked them in and didnt tell us till saturday. Said they were dropping 5 cent if thry aren't in this morning and anothe 5 cent drop next week.
Rang a different hauler and he he couldn't match the price. Sent them away anyway as it looks like the factories are using the decline in sterling to cut the sh1te out of price

What was base price?

Bass Reeves

darragh_haven wrote: »

Sent 20 bullocks and 8 heifers away this morning. Agent had booked them in and didnt tell us till saturday. Said they were dropping 5 cent if thry aren't in this morning and anothe 5 cent drop next week.
Rang a different hauler and he he couldn't match the price. Sent them away anyway as it looks like the factories are using the decline in sterling to cut the sh1te out of price

It has nothing to doo with sterling or at least very little. From the Journal on the week starting the 14/8 we killed 4K cattle more than last year. 45K more to be killed between now and the rest of the year. In reality that 45K extra will go through the system over the next 10 weeks. Factory's will have as much cattle as they like. Only thing that might cause a change is if numbers of over 36 month bullocks are way below last year I do not think this will translate into this years figures.

Danzy

Bass Reeves wrote: »

It has nothing to doo with sterling or at least very little. From the Journal on the week starting the 14/8 we killed 4K cattle more than last year. 45K more to be killed between now and the rest of the year. In reality that 45K extra will go through the system over the next 10 weeks. Factory's will have as much cattle as they like. Only thing that might cause a change is if numbers of over 36 month bullocks are way below last year I do not think this will translate into this years figures.

They are going to make October finishing the new winter finishing, profit wise.

Bass Reeves

Danzy wrote: »

They are going to make October finishing the new winter finishing, profit wise.

October finishing is always more expensive than lads think. If weather si wrong damage to fields and feeding 5+kgs of ration. Even with barley straight it is well over a euro/day on barley alone. If they manage to stack cattle in by insisting on booking them in 2-3 weeks in advance it is a real money pit. For every 10 cattle maybe costing 100+ euro a week including grass cutting up ground and trying to maybe feed silage outside as well.

Danzy

Bass Reeves wrote: »

October finishing is always more expensive than lads think. If weather si wrong damage to fields and feeding 5+kgs of ration. Even with barley straight it is well over a euro/day on barley alone. If they manage to stack cattle in by insisting on booking them in 2-3 weeks in advance it is a real money pit. For every 10 cattle maybe costing 100+ euro a week including grass cutting up ground and trying to maybe feed silage outside as well.

I have a ban of them for next year and they'll have a reasonably happy target and once they can hit that, they'll get the bolt.

The other half can stick around as usual.

White Clover

Whatever about numbers, would it make more sense to talk about throughput in tonnes? After all, all these dairy bred cattle are much lighter.

Muckit

White Clover wrote: »

Whatever about numbers, would it make more sense to talk about throughout in tonnes? After all, all these dairy bred cattle are much lighter.

Good man. Like all statistics they can be manipulated to suit the story or mirage certain parties want to portray.

Slaughter numbers on their own mean very little when you think about it.

But it's not about thinking rationally.

darragh_haven

I'm doing a job for a factory in Co. Armagh and the owner stated he's £4.05 / kg (approx €4.45) for bullocks. How can he offer this and our own cartels are down to €3.85/kg.

Muckit

Sellling through the ring to these factories is the only way .

amacca

Where would the best rings to do that be?

Bass Reeves

Muckit wrote: »

Sellling through the ring to these factories is the only way .

Selling through the ring is grand when numbers are tight. If factories can procure enough without going to the ring you are wasting your time. Just like quoting lower carcass weights. 100K extra cattle are about 7% of through put to the factories. If total carcass weight is down 10 kgs/carcass it is equivlent to 2.5% less meat. But the autumn is mainly always made up of grazing cattle carcass weight will not vary by much year to year.

I wish we had a method to beat the system, but like gambling the house always wins. The processors can see from the CMS cattle numbers, ages, what farms they are on, they can see stores numbers and where they are in the system. What has killed the Christmas trade for the last few years is farmers with low numbers waiting for the 6 month window for the ANC payment thsi year will be no different IMO.

We can huff and puff all we like but it si unlikly that farmers will gain control of prices again before next April. The circus has left town.

Muckit

amacca wrote: »

Where would the best rings to do that be?

Any Mart that has a good manager and has northern agents at ringside for its users. It should be YOUR local Mart. And if not why aren't you in talking to your Mart manager to see what they can do for you?

Did u ever see Mart reports for Balla Mart in Mayo on agriland?

Marts are co operatives. They were set up with the principles and values of farmers in mind. The main one was to get a fair price for their produce.

If you were selling your house or farm would you want a number of people to see it and try buy it or would you pick one and ring them up and ask them when can they come take it off your hands?

I've have had my fill of factories. I got done badly this year on weight with an animal sent in a bunch. I had pics taken at trough back and front with tag numbers. It's one for lads to be aware of. But how could it be proven? Grade is one thing, but weight is what pays.

At the Mart, weight is displayed for all to see. If you have animals factory fit you should get market value. If things are t obviously right, you as a farmer have opton not to sell.

Fair enough supplyvto factory but be contented withe price you get. But nobody should be giving out about factories and still continuing to supply directly to them.

White Clover

Muckit wrote: »

Any Mart that has a good manager and has northern agents at ringside for its users. It should be YOUR local Mart. And if not why aren't you in talking to your Mart manager to see what they can do for you?

Did u ever see Mart reports for Balla Mart in Mayo on agriland?

Marts are co operatives. They were set up with the principles and values of farmers in mind. The main one was to get a fair price for their produce.

If you were selling your house or farm would you want a number of people to see it and try buy it or would you pick one and ring them up and ask them when can they come take it off your hands?

I've have had my fill of factories. I got done badly this year on weight with an animal sent in a bunch. I had pics taken at trough back and front with tag numbers. It's one for lads to be aware of. But how could it be proven? Grade is one thing, but weight is what pays.

At the Mart, weight is displayed for all to see. If you have animals factory fit you should get market value. If things are t obviously right, you as a farmer have opton not to sell.

Fair enough supplyvto factory but be contented withe price you get. But nobody should be giving out about factories and still continuing to supply directly to them.

Add to that, a large proportion of fat cattle in the UK are sold through the ring. Why isn't it happening here?

White Clover

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Selling through the ring is grand when numbers are tight. If factories can procure enough without going to the ring you are wasting your time. Just like quoting lower carcass weights. 100K extra cattle are about 7% of through put to the factories. If total carcass weight is down 10 kgs/carcass it is equivlent to 2.5% less meat. But the autumn is mainly always made up of grazing cattle carcass weight will not vary by much year to year.

I wish we had a method to beat the system, but like gambling the house always wins. The processors can see from the CMS cattle numbers, ages, what farms they are on, they can see stores numbers and where they are in the system. What has killed the Christmas trade for the last few years is farmers with low numbers waiting for the 6 month window for the ANC payment thsi year will be no different IMO.

We can huff and puff all we like but it si unlikly that farmers will gain control of prices again before next April. The circus has left town.

I'd reckon 25 to 30 kg less meat on a dairy bred animal. That wouldn't be long altering the tonnage of meat.
Anyone know the breakdown of the kill, dairy bred v sucker bred?

Bass Reeves

White Clover wrote: »

I'd reckon 25 to 30 kg less meat on a dairy bred animal. That wouldn't be long altering the tonnage of meat.
Anyone know the breakdown of the kill, dairy bred v sucker bred?

Yes but there is 100K extra of them this year. Suckler numbers have not shrunk and number exported two years ago was not enough to change the intake enough. The weight drop from now on may not be as much as people consider alot of the cattle are from traditionally grazed herds like John Hendly who writes in in the FI intermittantly. His carcasse's weights vary at most +/- 7ish kgs year on year. As well most dairy bred cattle are steers, dairy bred steers would weigh as heavy or even heavier than suckler heifers being slaughtered over the next 10 weeks.

As far as I know the kill is about 2-1 suckler V dairy bred cattle. The other factors is a lot of the cattle coming on stream will be Fr steers hitting or over 30 months. Most of these will be Jan/Feb born so again will weight fairly well compared to suckler steers born from March- May 2015. All in all it is hard to see any improvement in price ad further drops may be on the cards.

kowtow

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I wish we had a method to beat the system, but like gambling the house always wins. The processors can see from the CMS cattle numbers, ages, what farms they are on, they can see stores numbers and where they are in the system.

Do they actually have that kind of access to the CMS? I'd be surprised, but if they do it is an outrage and one which should be ended immediately.

It's perfectly possible to give them the limited access required for dealing with a single animal on a case by case basis without giving them an overview of the privileged commercial information of their suppliers as a whole.

There is no trace-ability case whatsoever for factories to have that data in aggregate. It is the commercial equivalent of farmers being able to access the entire outgoing order book of the factories together with forward demand.

And while we are at it, tracing ought to be a two way thing, farmers should also be able to see what became of their animals and in what markets they ended up.

Bass Reeves

White Clover wrote: »

Add to that, a large proportion of fat cattle in the UK are sold through the ring. Why isn't it happening here?

It is really down to numbers. We export 90% of our produce. Over 70% of it is bought by three companies Kepak, ABP and Dawn. lately we saw Dunbia and Dawn virtually combined into one group. You have a fist full of independents that in reality are trading a lot of there produce with the big 3.

It is different in the UK as they consume more beef than they produce. Because of that they have lots of small abattoirs that kill for independent butchers. This creates a competitive market place. It reduces the influences of the larger processors. It also allows producers groups to brand market to butchers and for butchers and smaller abattoirs ( in the UK terms) to compete for school, hospital and other large catering contracts meat supply. you have to understand the difference dynamics between the UK and Irish Markets.

White Clover

Bass Reeves wrote: »

It is really down to numbers. We export 90% of our produce. Over 70% of it is bought by three companies Kepak, ABP and Dawn. lately we saw Dunbia and Dawn virtually combined into one group. You have a fist full of independents that in reality are trading a lot of there produce with the big 3.

It is different in the UK as they consume more beef than they produce. Because of that they have lots of small abattoirs that kill for independent butchers. This creates a competitive market place. It reduces the influences of the larger processors. It also allows producers groups to brand market to butchers and for butchers and smaller abattoirs ( in the UK terms) to compete for school, hospital and other large catering contracts meat supply. you have to understand the difference dynamics between the UK and Irish Markets.

That's all fine bass, but it still doesn't explain the price pull and price difference between darraghhaven's man in N.I. and the factories here. After all, the factories here are selling into a much more competitive market that has returned a much higher price to the farmer over there.
Also, this extra 4k cattle killed last week....most likely out of factory feedlots, are there to meet an increase in demand with schools opening this week.
As sterling is dropping in value, factories are maintaining their margins while (as wilfarman says) plundering rural economies.
Their actions over the past 4 weeks are indefensible.