beef price tracker

Good loser

Supply and demand determines the price of calves, the price of stores and the price of fat cattle (and always has). Larry Goodman has f**k all to do with it.
The price of cattle went up 20c to 25c per kg a couple of months ago throughout the system. Do people actually think that was an independant decision by LG to give farmers more for their cattle - because he felt they deserved it?

K.G.

Water John wrote: »

If only they'd rent their ground cheaply to you. You'd make good use of it.

I can assure you i have more than enough ground first year ever nobody has not come to talk about land and that suits fine.getting to the stage where i have enough cows too.i always leave it to people to approach me as everyone is entitled to do what they like with their own property.my point is the margins are not there to support smaller numbers andyou need some sort of scale to survive.its no different in the milking game.the margin in milk was never lower hardly than it is now its just the fellas have scaled up to compensate. I have no doubt that the margins are going to drop even more in both businesses

tanko

Good loser wrote: »

Supply and demand determines the price of calves, the price of stores and the price of fat cattle (and always has). Larry Goodman has f**k all to do with it.
The price of cattle went up 20c to 25c per kg a couple of months ago throughout the system. Do people actually think that was an independant decision by LG to give farmers more for their cattle - because he felt they deserved it?

To suggest that supply and demand determines the price of fat cattle is utter rubbish.
The beef market in Ireland is a classic example of a price fixing monopoly/cartel.

DBK1

Cavanjack wrote: »

Good u grade bullocks can kill out at 58%.
R grades round 55%
Young continental bulls 58% is the norm.
Dairy type bulls 52%

Over the past few years majority of stock have been live weighed within a day or 2 of going to the factory.

O/R- grade herefords and dairy limousines ranged from 48 to 53%.
R=/+ continentals 55 to 58%
U grades 58 up to the best over the past few years of 64%. A cracking 29 month old U+ killing out at 424kgs. Majority of U grades killed out 60% and above the past winter. All heifers.

The factory they are being sent to makes a big difference to kill out percentages. This shouldn’t be the case but it’s only when you start live weighing you see the results from various factories.

blue5000

DBK do you watch them being killed? Skinning takes off a fair lump of external fat IMHO.

DBK1

blue5000 wrote: »

DBK do you watch them being killed? Skinning takes off a fair lump of external fat IMHO.

Hi Blue,

No I’ve never waited to see them being killed. Maybe it’s something I should do whenever it will be allowed again.

Cavanjack

DBK1 wrote: »

Over the past few years majority of stock have been live weighed within a day or 2 of going to the factory.

O/R- grade herefords and dairy limousines ranged from 48 to 53%.
R=/+ continentals 55 to 58%
U grades 58 up to the best over the past few years of 64%. A cracking 29 month old U+ killing out at 424kgs. Majority of U grades killed out 60% and above the past winter. All heifers.

The factory they are being sent to makes a big difference to kill out percentages. This shouldn’t be the case but it’s only when you start live weighing you see the results from various factories.

Wonder do bullocks and heifers kill out better out of the shed than off grass? Has anyone availed of the live weighing in the factories and any idea of the cost?

Duke92

I’m beginning to think most people on here a small hobbie farmers that don’t really have a clue about finishing cattle
But have feck all else to be doing only giving out

wrangler

Duke92 wrote: »

I’m beginning to think most people on here a small hobbie farmers that don’t really have a clue about finishing cattle
But have feck all else to be doing only giving out

boards .ie wouldn't be the the worst by any means, there's farmers acting like children that don't know what they want on other forums.
Do they think that if they oppose everything they'll eventually get something right.
It's ironic in fact as you wouldn't let them run a tea party

Cavanjack

Duke92 wrote: »

I’m beginning to think most people on here a small hobbie farmers that don’t really have a clue about finishing cattle
But have feck all else to be doing only giving out

I’d say most on here are suckler or dairy farmers with very few finishing cattle only and sure 100 acres is regarded by some as a hobby these days.

blue5000

Duke92 wrote: »

I’m beginning to think most people on here a small hobbie farmers that don’t really have a clue about finishing cattle
But have feck all else to be doing only giving out

I reckon every beef farmer, big or small is a hobby farmer, certainly not in it for the money at present anyway.

memorystick

Any quotes

Hershall

memorystick wrote: »

Any quotes

3.60 midlands hfrs and bks

Good loser

tanko wrote: »

To suggest that supply and demand determines the price of fat cattle is utter rubbish.
The beef market in Ireland is a classic example of a price fixing monopoly/cartel.

So why did the price of cattle go up by 20 to 25c per kg a couple of months ago? If LG pulls prices down he must also be responsible for them going up.

And why did he settle on those numbers?
Give that a think.

charolais0153

Good loser wrote: »

So why did the price of cattle go up by 20 to 25c per kg a couple of months ago? If LG pulls prices down he must also be responsible for them going up.

And why did he settle on those numbers?
Give that a think.

Wrangler has said it before, we are undercutting the british so logically our price is behind theirs, wonder what the brits think of lg

Fireside Solicitor

Duke92 wrote: »

I’m beginning to think most people on here a small hobbie farmers that don’t really have a clue about finishing cattle
But have feck all else to be doing only giving out

Just like an IFA meeting

wrangler

Fireside Solicitor wrote: »

Just like an IFA meeting

Or anywhere that irish farmers congregate,
You never see a word about larrys' conspiracies on english farming forums or 'everyones out to get us' theories
much healthier altogether

Good loser

charolais0153 wrote: »

Wrangler has said it before, we are undercutting the british so logically our price is behind theirs, wonder what the brits think of lg

Why not address my questions?


Surely all meat factories sell their product at the best price they can achieve? (that.s how I sell my cattle).

Why would they do otherwise?

893bet

Good loser wrote: »

So why did the price of cattle go up by 20 to 25c per kg a couple of months ago? If LG pulls prices down he must also be responsible for them going up.

And why did he settle on those numbers?
Give that a think.

But he can control the price through his own feedlots. If the price goes up due to increased demand/competition he can kill more from controlled feedlot which increases supply and drags price back down.

kk.man

wrangler wrote: »

Or anywhere that irish farmers congregate,
You never see a word about larrys' conspiracies on english farming forums or 'everyones out to get us' theories
much healthier altogether

That's not true Wrangler one site recently posted the famous 'world in action' program via utube and then they published an article from the 'Scottish Farmer' tbh they really want to town on him.
I actually thought it was unfair how far they went.

wrangler

893bet wrote: »

But he can control the price through his own feedlots. If the price goes up due to increased demand/competition he can kill more from controlled feedlot which increases supply and drags price back down.

They don't just appear in the feedlots, surely he has to go out and compete in the market place for their replacements

Fireside Solicitor

Jim Power wasn’t able to answer it because he doesn’t have access to the management accounts of each processor (not the statutory accounts) and the communication records between processors. There are plenty of ways to manage margin and the most important one of all is to make sure you are buying your inputs (our cattle) at the right price and the right mix.

All that said cattle processing is not a high margin business. It is a low margin and all about volume. The retailers in some circumstances demand open books before they will give a contract.

A bread maker here years ago told me that Tesco sent over their bread team to him to go through his books and make sure his costs were as efficient as possible before they would price his bread contract. They even looked at his flour arrangements and forced him to buy forward. On price increases the way the bread lads did it was a simple as one of them would agree to put the price up and go first with the retailer then the others would follow. The retailer would put up with it when they had demand but would then delist some bread makers when things got tight. The delisted boy had to discount to get back in on the shelf and so the price overall came back again. The same principles apply with meat processing from the retailers perspective. The Government should introduce minimum price legislation but they’ll never do that.

Farmers don’t want to hear it but whatever bargaining power they had on beef was lost a long time ago. You now have a family farm model versus large retailer model and the two just don’t mix. The processor is in the middle and doing everything they can to keep their profits up. Then to top all the consumer taste is moving. Only way is for Government legislation on the retailers.

Grueller

Duke92 wrote: »

I’m beginning to think most people on here a small hobbie farmers that don’t really have a clue about finishing cattle
But have feck all else to be doing only giving out

10/10 for condescension there Duke.

charolais0153

Jjameson wrote: »

So how have all the processors got identical operating cost? Despite geographical location,stage of development? Can you answer the question Jim power wasnt fit to. What is the formula that determines the price? How does every price pull and rise move with almost perfect uniformity? The retail price remains constant. The restaurant and catering industry tell us that there’s never any downward fluctuation in their purchasing.

You may well be right (I don’t think so but I’m only a gom of a small hobby farmer 5’11 with a beer belly.) but it is incredulous that we never organised a proper Investigation.

I agree with wrangler to a point about farmers with illogical conspiracy theories and such and bringing such stuff to any table is a waste of energy and actually weakens our case.

90% of beef is exported, doesnt nake muxh differnece what supervalu are doing tbh

richie123

charolais0153 wrote: »

90% of beef is exported, doesnt nake muxh differnece what supervalu are doing tbh

The best answer to this whole beef price-fixing debate is go out and pay someone kill your own stock and store it at your own expense then deal with restaurant s wholesalers etc.
You won't be long about finding out how tight the margins are.
Beef is a high output low margin business..
That's how the Larry Goodman's of this world make there money.

Fireside Solicitor

An uncle of mine used deal with Larry back when he started out tangling. That was the early 60s. Look at how the diary co-ops have developed since and look at beef. You could argue that Larry took the place of a beef co-op but then he was allowed to as the farmers could never get cohesive like the dairy men

Fireside Solicitor

And you could say Charlie Haughey made him but there was nothing to stop the farmers doing the same deals with Haughey for the export refunds if they got their act together. Haughey didn’t care where his money was coming from!

Aravo

Animal tested last year on say 20th June and reading say on 23rd June. What is the expiry date for slaughter this year.

Good loser

Jjameson wrote: »

So how have all the processors got identical operating cost? Despite geographical location,stage of development? Can you answer the question Jim power wasnt fit to. What is the formula that determines the price? How does every price pull and rise move with almost perfect uniformity? The retail price remains constant. The restaurant and catering industry tell us that there’s never any downward fluctuation in their purchasing.

You may well be right (I don’t think so but I’m only a gom of a small hobby farmer 5’11 with a beer belly.) but it is incredulous that we never organised a proper Investigation.

I agree with wrangler to a point about farmers with illogical conspiracy theories and such and bringing such stuff to any table is a waste of energy and actually weakens our case.

That's an easy one. Supply and demand determines price. That's why prices go up AND down. The market is constantly adjusting.


At the micro level the farmer has little clout. See every week in Market Trends in the IFJ where large sellers of lamb can squeeze 10c extra from the factory fairly often - but not always. When supplies are plentiful the factories can stick to their quotes.



Last year I wanted to sell 4 or 5 cattle. My agent said it was unlikely he could get €x per kg. as he had four loads of cattle stacked for the last two weeks looking for this price. And there was no budge. I let them off at the lower price.
It's not complicated.

epfff

Aravo wrote: »

Animal tested last year on say 20th June and reading say on 23rd June. What is the expiry date for slaughter this year.

No expiry on slaughter date but dept will lock up herd probably after killing

T0001

Aravo wrote: »

Animal tested last year on say 20th June and reading say on 23rd June. What is the expiry date for slaughter this year.

Factories operate a "no going home" policy on cattle presented.

There's info on the DAFM website about different scenarios where cattle sent are out of test.

https://www.agriculture.gov.ie/press/pressreleases/2010/april/title,41953,en.html

Duke92

Jjameson wrote: »

There’s no doubt we are price takers at farm level but the the correlation between weekly kill, currency fluctuation and market demand does not directly link to beef price, . How can every processor have identical processing costs and how is there none pushing for increasing output, improving efficiencies and ousting their competitors? Week on week perfect uniformity in pricing for the vast majority of cattle which are coming from hobby sized farmers.

A cartel if you will...

8 families control a billion euro industry.

We aren’t on our own with this situation but this is interesting
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-06-15/u-s-meat-giants-face-biggest-attack-in-century-from-trump-probe?fbclid=IwAR23rlf3dQccaQ94LpSgvyYN4Z5pOOuwvHm-uMIgMjSvNxPbvZ7j6BEhxgI

Yes it’s supply and demand
Milk the same there nearly all around a 1/2 a cent difference in price
Grain the same never much more than a few euro difference in price
That is life

Bass Reeves

Jjameson wrote: »

There’s no doubt we are price takers at farm level but the the correlation between weekly kill, currency fluctuation and market demand does not directly link to beef price, . How can every processor have identical processing costs and how is there none pushing for increasing output, improving efficiencies and ousting their competitors? Week on week perfect uniformity in pricing for the vast majority of cattle which are coming from hobby sized farmers.

A cartel if you will...

8 families control a billion euro industry.

We aren’t on our own with this situation but this is interesting
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-06-15/u-s-meat-giants-face-biggest-attack-in-century-from-trump-probe?fbclid=IwAR23rlf3dQccaQ94LpSgvyYN4Z5pOOuwvHm-uMIgMjSvNxPbvZ7j6BEhxgI

If you look at the Irish beef industry you have to wonder how four operators have gone from being fairly small businesses controling 60ish % if the Irish beef processing to companies that control over 80%of Irish processing, over 50% of the UK processing as well as processing on other parts of Europe. As well a couple of them have diversified into other sectors, property, medical and nursing homes.all this in an industry where margins are supposed to be wafer thin.

Bass Reeves

Duke92 wrote: »

Yes it’s supply and demand
Milk the same there nearly all around a 1/2 a cent difference in price
Grain the same never much more than a few euro difference in price
That is life

You are incorrect about milk

Duke92

Bass Reeves wrote: »

You are incorrect about milk

How

ruwithme

Duke92 wrote: »

How

Let him sleep Duke

Anto_Meath

Last year during the factory protests, I was saying it was the wrong thing to be doin as it was putting farmer against farmer. I think today hearing the stories about Larry I figured out how we can get at the factories. Investigate all the various companies they own, how they manage their taxes. As the saying goes follow the money. If farmers want better prices then we need to know where the money actually is. The one thing factory owners wouldnt like is their business dealings been investigated, if we can follow the money and start showing how the factory owners are abusing the system by tax avoidance then factories will be quick to up the quotes to keep farmers quite about their dealings.

Water John

Slaney looking for organic cattle esp Angus.

charolais0153

Anto_Meath wrote: »

Last year during the factory protests, I was saying it was the wrong thing to be doin as it was putting farmer against farmer. I think today hearing the stories about Larry I figured out how we can get at the factories. Investigate all the various companies they own, how they manage their taxes. As the saying goes follow the money. If farmers want better prices then we need to know where the money actually is. The one thing factory owners wouldnt like is their business dealings been investigated, if we can follow the money and start showing how the factory owners are abusing the system by tax avoidance then factories will be quick to up the quotes to keep farmers quite about their dealings.

farmers would be able to investigate massive conpanies and shell companies etc while blaming factories for no profits in factories:')

Anto_Meath

charolais0153 wrote: »

farmers would be able to investigate massive conpanies and shell companies etc while blaming factories for no profits in factories:')

Farmers wouldnt but if the likes of beef plan & IFA put enough effort into it then tthey would, alot of this information is readly available through the likes of the CRO. A spot light on how Larry & his mates run their operations would pull them back into line somewhat. You can bet Larry isnt to happy with the IFJ tonight.

Anto_Meath

Information on various companies he owns, how 5 of the holding companies are registered in Luxembourg, have no employees yet makes millions in profits and I think only a few hundred thousand in tax. It also details some of the properties he own and the billions he is worth. But Larry is a very private individual so you can be sure he isn't happy to have this much information in the public and I would guess his whole business is like an onion lots of layers but once you start peeling you can get to the center of it if you try, so he will want a stop put to this quickly.

charolais0153

Anto_Meath wrote: »

Information on various companies he owns, how 5 of the holding companies are registered in Luxembourg, have no employees yet makes millions in profits and I think only a few hundred thousand in tax. It also details some of the properties he own and the billions he is worth. But Larry is a very private individual so you can be sure he isn't happy to have this much information in the public and I would guess his whole business is like an onion lots of layers but once you start peeling you can get to the center of it if you try, so he will want a stop put to this quickly.

Is their anything illegal about that?

Anto_Meath

Ah Larry & his like are too clever to do anything that is illegal.. but tax avoidence does get the revenue interested in your affairs so that could cost him a few €€ to sort out.

Bass Reeves

Duke92 wrote: »

How

While the price of milk is often very close it is not always. This happens especially when prices get very strong or weak. As well with milk there is forward pricing so farmers can lock into these when they are available. There is also different conditions to supply by different processor's and these are constantly not trying to talk down the price of milk

Milk processor's are made up of a diverse mixture of entities. From small and large co-ops to MN companies. The co-ops have a transparent account structure and suppliers have an idea of the profitability of the sector. Kerry group have a commitment to pay a leading milk price this has forced it to pay a top price similar to a number of co-ops in West Cork that usually lead the pack. These co-ops have a very transparent account structure and are returning profits dividends as part of the milk price. Kerry group have to match that.

Another feature is milk price top ups or bonuses paid for product purchased by producer's. Finally there is not a special pricing arrangements for some suppliers which other producers do not have access to.

Just saw on the milk price thread difference between Dairygold and Carbery is 3c/L

I says

blue5000 wrote: »

I reckon every beef farmer, big or small is a hobby farmer, certainly not in it for the money at present anyway.

Expensive lawnmowers

Fireside Solicitor

Anto_Meath wrote: »

Information on various companies he owns, how 5 of the holding companies are registered in Luxembourg, have no employees yet makes millions in profits and I think only a few hundred thousand in tax. It also details some of the properties he own and the billions he is worth. But Larry is a very private individual so you can be sure he isn't happy to have this much information in the public and I would guess his whole business is like an onion lots of layers but once you start peeling you can get to the center of it if you try, so he will want a stop put to this quickly.

What he is no different to what all multinationals do. That’s why the EU are out to stamp out any differences between member states that allow you save because of different rules in different countries. Only problem is Ireland is going to lose if that happens.IFJ have it arseways as usual.

Fireside Solicitor

The reason Larry can pay a fortune in tax planning fees to KPMG is because he’s making a lot of profits in Ireland, UK, Poland and elsewhere from ABP and investments. Getting the Irish revenue to investigate will yield nothing as Ireland’s only a small piece of the jigsaw and they probably have investigated many times already. Only way is for Government to introduce price legislation.

Fireside Solicitor

Sure look at all the other business geniuses Ireland has - Dermot Desmond, John Magnier, Denis O’Brien, JP McManus, Michael Smurfit, Larry etc. One thing in common, according to similar media reporting they all engage in tax planning including living offshore. One rule for the rich....

wrangler

Fireside Solicitor wrote: »

Sure look at all the other business geniuses Ireland has - Dermot Desmond, John Magnier, Denis O’Brien, JP McManus, Michael Smurfit, Larry etc. One thing in common, according to similar media reporting they all engage in tax planning including living offshore. One rule for the rich....

They wouldn't stay in the country if it was any different....... where would you be then.
Same with price legislation , survival of the fittest is the way it has to be , other wise it'd be like the Civil service..... just because it's surviving doesn't mean it'd work in the real world

Fireside Solicitor

Bass Reeves wrote: »

While the price of milk is often very close it is not always. This happens especially when prices get very strong or weak. As well with milk there is forward pricing so farmers can lock into these when they are available. There is also different conditions to supply by different processor's and these are constantly not trying to talk down the price of milk

Milk processor's are made up of a diverse mixture of entities. From small and large co-ops to MN companies. The co-ops have a transparent account structure and suppliers have an idea of the profitability of the sector. Kerry group have a commitment to pay a leading milk price this has forced it to pay a top price similar to a number of co-ops in West Cork that usually lead the pack. These co-ops have a very transparent account structure and are returning profits dividends as part of the milk price. Kerry group have to match that.

Another feature is milk price top ups or bonuses paid for product purchased by producer's. Finally there is not a special pricing arrangements for some suppliers which other producers do not have access to.

Just saw on the milk price thread difference between Dairygold and Carbery is 3c/L

And a lot of the older member suppliers of Kerry, Avonmore, Waterford, Golden Vale etc did very well out of their co-op shares getting them PLC shares. One Kerry man told me he made more out of the Kerry PLC share than a lifetime milking. On top of that Kerry were shareholders in IAWS PLC and they got a lump of shares out of that too. Great example in fairness to the sector for all the giving out about milk price tables