non-religious alternatives

Branoic

My wife and I are anti-Catholic Church, and were always determined that we wouldn't have our child christened or baptised. We've no problem with religion as a whole, but we want to leave it until the child is older and can make their own mind up.

Both sets of our parents know about our feelings and accept it, but we haven't really discussed it with anyone else or looked into the practicalities of what it means. And now we have our first child due in 3 months and we're suddenly revisiting this topic.

My wife was talking to her granny the other day - very traditional elderly matriarchal figure, the head of a very large extended family and in to everyone's business. She mentioned something about going to a butchers for us now and booking the ham for the christening! :eek: Wife said, "Er, we're not going to be having a christening". Granny kinda looked at her in shock and said, "don't be silly, of course you'll be having a christening!" and that was the end of that conversation!

Anyway, the episode has focused us back on the topic again and we're curious to find out the stories of any other parents going down the same route as ourselves - things like, what are the alternatives to a christening / baptism if you still want to have some sort of special family occassion? what are the options for school if the child isn't catholic? What sort of other obsticles did you come up against? For parents of older children, was your child bullied and felt left out around communion / confirmation times etc?

Basically, now that the reality of having a child is upon us, we're wondering if our moral standpoint will lead to an unnecessarily difficult life for our child and if we should just give in and get it christened / baptised (even though it would really grate against my beliefs)?

January

Naming ceremony... and Educate Together school. Problem solved...

KazDub

Why don't you have a look at the Unitarian church in Dublin, if it's anywhere near you. You can have a child 'welcoming' ceremony.

http://www.dublinunitarianchurch.org/welcomings/

It'll keep the religious fuddy-duddys relatively happy while giving everyone a nice, celebratory day out.

Ellis Dee

Branoic wrote: »

My wife and I are anti-Catholic Church, and were always determined that we wouldn't have our child christened or baptised. We've no problem with religion as a whole, but we want to leave it until the child is older and can make their own mind up.

That sounds like the fairest option and also the most respectful of the child's right to make important decisions itself when it is old enough to.

Branoic wrote: »

Both sets of our parents know about our feelings and accept it, but we haven't really discussed it with anyone else or looked into the practicalities of what it means. And now we have our first child due in 3 months and we're suddenly revisiting this topic.

I don't really see any need to revisit the topic. It has been discussed with your parents and they accept it. It's no one else's business.

Branoic wrote: »

My wife was talking to her granny the other day - very traditional elderly matriarchal figure, the head of a very large extended family and in to everyone's business. She mentioned something about going to a butchers for us now and booking the ham for the christening! :eek: Wife said, "Er, we're not going to be having a christening". Granny kinda looked at her in shock and said, "don't be silly, of course you'll be having a christening!" and that was the end of that conversation!

It's never too late for a person to learn that she can't stick her nose into people's lives like that. When I married a foreign woman, who wasn't Catholic, in a civil service in Helsinki and returned to Ireland soon after that, the elderly craw-thumping, altar-eating, bossy matriarchial figure in my family (there's one in every family, isn't there!) took me aside and demanded to know: "Is she going to turn?" I replied: "Into what, for fcuks sake? She suits me the way she is!", and that was the end of that.

Branoic wrote: »

Anyway, the episode has focused us back on the topic again and we're curious to find out the stories of any other parents going down the same route as ourselves - things like, what are the alternatives to a christening / baptism if you still want to have some sort of special family occassion? what are the options for school if the child isn't catholic? What sort of other obsticles did you come up against? For parents of older children, was your child bullied and felt left out around communion / confirmation times etc?

We never had any kind of ceremony, but what's wrong with just inviting family and friends round to a "presenting the heir" ceremony of some kind or other? In your own home if you have the space, or in a rented function room somewhere.

If children are bullied, it's the bullies' fault, not yours or your child's. What really matters to children around communion / confirmation time is the presents and money they get. And there's nothing to stop you arranging a do for your child that will make the other little christians green with envy.:D

Branoic wrote: »

Basically, now that the reality of having a child is upon us, we're wondering if our moral standpoint will lead to an unnecessarily difficult life for our child and if we should just give in and get it christened / baptised (even though it would really grate against my beliefs)?

I suppose I had it easy in that my children grew up and went to school in Finland and therefore religion never impinged even remotely on our lives. But I would not have allowed it to even if anyone had attempted it, and it can only get easier in Ireland as time goes by.

Do not give in. If people outside your nuclear family have a problem with your lifestyle or how you bring up your child, that's their problem and hangup and not yours.

Good luck with your pregnancy, by the way.:)

LittleBook

Luckily my daughter did her primary schooling in France so religion wasn't an issue. By the time she got to secondary school (in Ireland) she was well able to participate in the obligatory religion classes without being indoctrinated. Whatever happens now is up to her.

Sorry, not much help but there's an Atheism & Agnosticism board here which you might find informative and supportive as well.

Branoic

Thanks, will look into the Unitarian welcoming ceremony, seems like it might be a good option.

There are no Educate Together schools near us. We live in Arklow and the closest is in Gorey - don't know what their catchment area size is like. Have sent them an email enquiring, but if anyone else has info on it that'd be great.

Orion

ET schools have no catchment area. Anyone can apply from anywhere.

Check out the Humanist society. They can officiate at a humanist naming ceremony or you can just organise your own - their book has some sample ones in it. tbh it's something we meant to do with ours but never actually did.

Our two aren't christened either and they get on fine. Their best friend is the daughter of a highly religious couple and none of the give a damn - kids are a lot more understanding about things like this than some adults.

Ayla

A couple things:

1) Although we're agnostic we had our first christened in the Church of Ireland to appease the family. We really liked the minister & it was a very personal & private ceremony (not during a service, but instead just us standing around at the back of the church). That said, we both felt ill that we had surrendered our own personal beliefs and "sold out" just to keep everyone else happy. Not the ideals that we'd want to teach our children. So when our second child came around we just avoided the entire situation. No christening and no naming ceremony because doing so would almost be like a slap in the face & far too awkward for the family (who doesn't really like doing anything out of the norm). If anyone had anything to say they didn't say it to us.

2) You said in your post that you're anti-Catholic church. Are you anti-Catholic or anti-religion? If you're only anti-Catholic, would a ceremony in another denomination be a possiblity? (I know, easy to say as a Yank who's moved to Ireland & thus doesn't get all this denomination stuff, but just putting it out there as a possible compromise?)

Sleepy

Our eldest was baptised in a Catholic church (at the age of 3!) because his father wanted it to placate his family. He attends a COI school and can make his own mind up about religion when he's old enough to.

Our youngest wasn't baptised and won't be. She'll attend the same primary school as her brother and we'll worry about secondary schools when the time comes. God help any child that tries to bully her, she's beaten the daylights out of her older brother when provoked enough so I don't have any fear for her in a playground!

annamcmahon

We had a naming ceremony in the Unitarian Church last year for our daughter. It was lovely, spiritual but not religious and everything was done for lovely reasons. I'd highly recommend it.

LittleBook

Branoic wrote: »

There are no Educate Together schools near us.

When my daughter was born there were no ET schools or non-religious options that I was aware of. I was talking to my father bemoaning this, I didn't want her to be indoctrinated, life isn't fair, yadda, yadda, yadda ... and he said to me: "You went to Catholic school for years and look how you turned out!"

The point is, where your children go to school does not determine their religion or lack of it.

gcgirl

Branoic wrote: »

Thanks, will look into the Unitarian welcoming ceremony, seems like it might be a good option.

There are no Educate Together schools near us. We live in Arklow and the closest is in Gorey - don't know what their catchment area size is like. Have sent them an email enquiring, but if anyone else has info on it that'd be great.

I have 2 kids in Wicklow educate together and it's brilliant, I know it's a couple of miles out of your way but I'd highly recommend it

gcgirl

LittleBook wrote: »

Branoic wrote: »

There are no Educate Together schools near us.

When my daughter was born there were no ET schools or non-religious options that I was aware of. I was talking to my father bemoaning this, I didn't want her to be indoctrinated, life isn't fair, yadda, yadda, yadda ... and he said to me: "You went to Catholic school for years and look how you turned out!"

The point is, where your children go to school does not determine their religion or lack of it.

But when it comes to communion and confirmation the kids are sucked in

Hobbitfeet

I'm due my baby today patiently waiting!!
We are not going to have baby christened we don't go to church or believe in Catholic church when child is old enough they can decide for themsleves. My OH is German and has officially left the RC Church there unfourtunetly the RC in Ireland will not allow you to officially leave and have your name taken from their register but if they did allow I would be doing it.
Don't let family bully or push you into doing something you don't want with your child.

Daisy M

My children are catholic and have/will go through all the ceremonies ect.
They go to our local national school which is obviously catholic. Just tp give you some feed back on how the children who are not catholic fit in. There are just 4 of them and they are of two other religions. There is no big deal when communion/confirmation time comes, they just arent doing it and thats it. The other children dont see this as a big deal. The children usually come to the communion/confirmation mass to see their friends and get a pic taken with them. Its really not something thats mentioned or focused on. I think they take part in religion in schools, not sure its not something I have ever asked about. From what I see the catholic children never take any heed of their religion been different. Sometimes my daughter will come home and tell me things about her friends religion and thats really as far as it goes.

Todays catholic teaching in national school seems to be based more on teaching right from wrong, it doesnt go over board apart from around the communion and confirmation period of which a non catholic child will not take part in.

To me and maybe I am wrong but I think parents of non religious or other religion children worry too much about how their child will be perceived for been different religion wise. Kids dont take a lot of notice in this they see "mary/john" their friend not "mary/John" the atheist ect.

Branoic

LittleBook wrote: »

When my daughter was born there were no ET schools or non-religious options that I was aware of. I was talking to my father bemoaning this, I didn't want her to be indoctrinated, life isn't fair, yadda, yadda, yadda ... and he said to me: "You went to Catholic school for years and look how you turned out!"

The point is, where your children go to school does not determine their religion or lack of it.

Good sentiments, and ones I can appreciate - I went to a catholic school run by a religious order, and I no issues there or with my education.

Its not going to a catholic school that i'd be worried about, its more that by not being catholic, this may restrict the number of schools which will take the child on, some of which may be good solid schools, but wouldn't take on our kid on grounds of religion.

Not sure if that's even done these days with equality rules and all that.

Branoic

Ayla wrote: »

A couple things:

2) You said in your post that you're anti-Catholic church. Are you anti-Catholic or anti-religion? If you're only anti-Catholic, would a ceremony in another denomination be a possiblity? (I know, easy to say as a Yank who's moved to Ireland & thus doesn't get all this denomination stuff, but just putting it out there as a possible compromise?)

not exactly anti-religious, just anti-Church. We differ slightly on our levels - my wife wouldn't mind some type of Christian element, whereas I don't believe in Christian theology at all, Catholic or not, but I wouldn't mind some mild references to it.

That's why I think the Unitarian option may seem like the best one so far. The main thing is the idea of childhood indoctrination which I want to avoid. Not to get into any religious debates with anyone here, but basically I feel the Church has been abusing its position and power for over 1500 years, and the reason its just been let on with it is because of their "get them in while they're young" policy of infant baptism, and you then can't ever leave! They even changed canon law to remove the option of a formal defection, so you can't ever officially leave the Church.

How Strange

Hopefully the labour party will have succeeded in getting some of the schools secularised by the time our babies are school going age.

We've enrolled our son in three Educate Together schools in our area. I really don't want him going to a mainstream school as I'm vehemently opposed to the use of school hours to teach religion and preparing children for communion and confirmation.

He isn't and he won't be christened by us and I suppose the only problem would be if we moved to a rural area and had to put him in a Mainstream school and he wanted to make his communion to fit in. That's the reason we'll most likely stay in Dublin because we have choice in terms of his education.

Hobbitfeet

My younger brother now 13 is not baptised. He went to a very small rural primary school 2 teachers for the whole school. He didn't have any problems when communion and confirmation came around he just didn't participate he didn't seem to feel left out or different because of it

Orion

How Strange wrote: »

We've enrolled our son in three Educate Together schools in our area. I really don't want him going to a mainstream school as I'm vehemently opposed to the use of school hours to teach religion

Just to clarify ET schools teach religion too. They have to. The primary school curriculum mandates 2 hours per week of religion. However, ET schools do religious education about all religions instead of religious instruction in one.

ET schools are just as mainstream as any other. All other aspects of the curriculum are exactly the same as denominational schools. The primary school curriculum is not different for each patron.

How Strange wrote: »

Hopefully the labour party will have succeeded in getting some of the schools secularised by the time our babies are school going age.

Don't count on secularisation. Labour are pushing the VEC model and while those schools may be multidenominational they still have (mostly catholic) chaplains - go figure.

Kildrought

leave it until the child is older and can make their own mind up

This is the bit I never understand...I'm an atheist, I have strong values in regards to society, community, self-help etc., and my children were brought up with those values.

They may choose to reject them in the future now they are adults, but they couldn't have chosen to reject it if they didn't know about the values in the first place.

Choosing not to teach your children anything about what you value and believe in (be that a deity or not) doesn't seem like a good model of parenting to me.

Branoic

Kildrought wrote: »

Choosing not to teach your children anything about what you value and believe in (be that a deity or not) doesn't seem like a good model of parenting to me.

Where did I say that the child wasn't going to be taught any values or morals?

The child will (hopefully)have a very well rounded moral education at our hands, and in addition to whatever religious education they receive at school will also get additional from me, as world religions etc is an area that interests me.

ElleEm

I wasn't raised as Catholic, but went to Catholic schools.
I just sat the religion/ communion/ confirmation bits out.
Don't worry about your kids fitting in, or being outcasts.
We're lucky in that Ireland is becoming so multicultural. It is less strange when a child does not partake in religion in schools.

PLEASE don't baptise your child into a religion that you don't agree with. Although your child can, in theory, "make up their own mind later in life", if they are baptised into the Catholic Church, they can never leave.

Be assertive and don't allow yourselves to be bullied into doing something just cos it's easier than the agro.

LittleBook

gcgirl wrote: »

But when it comes to communion and confirmation the kids are sucked in

Not necessarily

Ellis Dee wrote: »

What really matters to children around communion / confirmation time is the presents and money they get. And there's nothing to stop you arranging a do for your child that will make the other little christians green with envy.:D

But my point is not to despair if you find yourself with few or no other options than the local catholic school. It could still be a good school even if there is a system of religious instruction rather than religious education.

Daisy M

I am beginning to form the opinion that we have actually taken a step backwards when it comes to religious education in our schools. When I was in school both national and secondary if a child was not catholic they did not take part in religion at all. They either went off to study, another classroom or sat and did other work themselves. Now it doesnt matter which school your child goes to, they have to take part in some form of RE. My son in secondary school has to do RE and has to sit a juniorcert test for the same. It is a really hard subject and requires quiet a bit of study and he usually barely scrapes a c or a d in it. I was shocked when I found this out and again I will remind you I am a catholic and so are my children but I cant believe that in this day and age we have to allow our children RE. I dont mind the class aspect of it but testing on it to me is crazy. Teenagers are under enough pressure with out adding this to the mix. When I went to the same school it was a convent and we had class teats no exams unless it was chosen as a LC subject.

Sleepy

My kids will be told to fail it at will tbh.

Branoic

Daisy M wrote: »

I am beginning to form the opinion that we have actually taken a step backwards when it comes to religious education in our schools. When I was in school both national and secondary if a child was not catholic they did not take part in religion at all. They either went off to study, another classroom or sat and did other work themselves. Now it doesnt matter which school your child goes to, they have to take part in some form of RE. My son in secondary school has to do RE and has to sit a juniorcert test for the same. It is a really hard subject and requires quiet a bit of study and he usually barely scrapes a c or a d in it. I was shocked when I found this out and again I will remind you I am a catholic and so are my children but I cant believe that in this day and age we have to allow our children RE. I dont mind the class aspect of it but testing on it to me is crazy. Teenagers are under enough pressure with out adding this to the mix. When I went to the same school it was a convent and we had class teats no exams unless it was chosen as a LC subject.

I actually don't have a problem with RE and think that it's a very important topic of study - as long as its equal and inclusive and not indoctrination into one faith. Particularly is primary and for junior cert I don't think the emphasis should be so heavily weighted to the traditional core academic subjects. An education should be about much wider areas - and as religion is such a massive part of society an culture all over the world, I think taking the study of it as an objective subject can only be of benefit to children in teaching them about differences and tolerance etc.

Daisy M

Branoic wrote: »

I actually don't have a problem with RE and think that it's a very important topic of study - as long as its equal and inclusive and not indoctrination into one faith. Particularly is primary and for junior cert I don't think the emphasis should be so heavily weighted to the traditional core academic subjects. An education should be about much wider areas - and as religion is such a massive part of society an culture all over the world, I think taking the study of it as an objective subject can only be of benefit to children in teaching them about differences and tolerance etc.

I dont mind the teaching of it I mind the exam and the fact the class tests are pretty hard going. I think its great to learn about other religions but I am not fully sure that if someone is an atheist that they should not have a choice. It really is the exam not been a choice I have a problem with. It is an extremely hard subject and my sons teacher really takes it seriously.

Kildrought

RE and has to sit a juniorcert test for the same

To both mine and teachers' amusement, both my children picked up A grades in said exam!

liliq

+1 on naming ceremony and ET school (if possible).
There are starter groups for ET schools in a lot of areas as well, so even if there's none currently close to you, it could be worth a search as there might be a start up group trying to get one going

lazygal

Branoic wrote: »

Not sure if that's even done these days with equality rules and all that.

Schools are exempt from the Equal Status Act in religious aspects and can legally refuse a child in favour of one that subscribes to the ethos. Happens all the time in a local CofI school, Catholics or those of no faith are regularly turned away.

I would not be giving into the matriarch outlined here. The reason she's able to bulldoze her way through the family like this is because no one ever says no. My FIL can be quite difficult to deal with and often tries to lay down the law to his adult son and me, but I didn't marry the family, I married my husband, and we make our decisions on what's right for our family. What kind of message does it send to children to give into this kind of foot stamping bullying?