Whats the point of music snobbery?

viadah

Being a devout follower of the Catholic Church is another unreasonable ideal, you're into blind faith which can be related to dismissal of genres because you believe them to be inferior to your own taste, but there's no point in going into any kind of theological debate here and I really should be making a point at some stage.

The point is, musical snobbery is unreasonable and self defeating from my own experience. When I was 18 I listened to nothing but metal, everything else was beneath me, all ****. Two things happened - I heard Aphex Twin's 'Come to Daddy' and found myself wondering if I was allowed listen to it because it wasn't metal - which was one of the most retarded things I ever thought - and a workmate said simply 'listen to Billy Bragg. If you don't like him, you don't like him, but you can't say it's just **** without having a valid reason for saying so'. So in ceasing to think in unreasonable ways with regards to music, I opened up new avenues for myself, expanded my taste in music and got to hear music over the years that I love that a snobbish attitude would have denied me. There is no point to musical snobbery, it's close-mindedness that could stand in the way of personal evolution.

As for the Radiohead thing, as you said certain folk subscribe to certain popular opinions, and Radiohead are on a societal pedestal and perceived as a more cerebral form of music, whereas Oasis occupy a more earthy societal level if you will. I don't see true snobbery as you described as being more thought out in terms of it being a cynical popularity ploy, rather as a willful expression of ignorance masked by personal preference.

karaokeman

Android 666 wrote: »

I'd actually say that true music snobbery is based on a more thought out point of view than most people's music tastes and that's actually what makes it more obnoxious. The true music snob will base their opinion on what they should like on what is considered cool by all the right websites and publications rather than basing it on what they actually like themselves.

Everyone has their own definition of a music snob. Its kind of a general thing because music is the one hobby you will always get a lot of subjectivity. There are of course people who only look to the charts for good music and who just copy their tastes based on what their friends are downloading and what you would hear from the top 30 on Spin1038. If a person who criticises that group of music fans is considered a music snob in your opinion, I think that would be the common definition of a music snob.

I am not like that how I go about finding music is this, I read the news and anything that comes up I look it up. When Noel Gallagher released The Death of You and Me I saw the press release and then I looked up the video when it was released. And likewise when an album comes out it will leak to youtube and if I like it I will buy the physical copy.

Android 666 wrote: »

A person saying that they hate all hip hop because what they've heard of it is crap isn't a snob in my opinion, they are being a bit of ignoramus. The thing is personal preference and time are going to play a factor in what you're going to listen to. I like some hip hop but tbh I'm not going to listen to a lot of it because there are other things I prefer to listen to. Same with any of genre of music I don't listen to on a regular basis.

Well it all depends on how much hip hop they have heard doesn't it? I don't listen to a lot of hip hop mainstream or otherwise but I have heard a few good tunes that would not necessarily be radio-popular by Irish standards.

Android 666 wrote: »

The thing that does bug me though is if you express a negative opinion about a band you get 'you obviously haven't listened to all of their songs' argument. If I'm basing that opinion on singles the band have released, it is not my fault that the band released poor singles and as singles are usually an indicator of an album, if they are bad most people aren't going to invest the time in listening to the rest of the album to uncover the 'gems'.

Plenty of bands have 'gems' that are not singles off an album.

Coldplay have Death and All His Friends off Viva la Vida or Death and All His Friends. I would absolutely recommend it for any Coldplay fan or even a newbie to Coldplay's music, may not be a promotional piece but the epic progression with Chris' vocals make it a modern masterpiece.

Oasis have Cast No Shadow off (Whats the Story) Morning Glory. Granted it will never be as famous as Wonderwall, it is a great anthemic tune as what many diehards would generally expect from Oasis.

Red Hot Chili Peppers have The Power of Equality, a song thats not just a song but a way of life off Blood Sugar Sex Magik.

Then you have Take That's Underground Machine, The Script's Rusty Halo, The Killers Everything Will Be Alright I could go on but I've done enough for now.

Android 666 wrote: »

One last thing, how come it is snobby if let's say a Radiohead fan disses Oasis but it isn't if it's the other way around?

Again it depends on how you define a music snob.

In the usual case which should be Radiohead dissing Oasis its because Oasis are more mainstream/ have sold more records worldwide and have a lot more radio hits. A music snob IMO would be a person who thinks just because an Oasis fan loves Don't Look Back In Anger its because they would hear that song on the radio and genuinely haven't heard all of (Whats the Story) Morning Glory.

Android 666

viadah wrote: »

Being a devout follower of the Catholic Church is another unreasonable ideal, you're into blind faith which can be related to dismissal of genres because you believe them to be inferior to your own taste, but there's no point in going into any kind of theological debate here and I really should be making a point at some stage.

The point is, musical snobbery is unreasonable and self defeating from my own experience. When I was 18 I listened to nothing but metal, everything else was beneath me, all ****. Two things happened - I heard Aphex Twin's 'Come to Daddy' and found myself wondering if I was allowed listen to it because it wasn't metal - which was one of the most retarded things I ever thought - and a workmate said simply 'listen to Billy Bragg. If you don't like him, you don't like him, but you can't say it's just **** without having a valid reason for saying so'. So in ceasing to think in unreasonable ways with regards to music, I opened up new avenues for myself, expanded my taste in music and got to hear music over the years that I love that a snobbish attitude would have denied me. There is no point to musical snobbery, it's close-mindedness that could stand in the way of personal evolution.

As for the Radiohead thing, as you said certain folk subscribe to certain popular opinions, and Radiohead are on a societal pedestal and perceived as a more cerebral form of music, whereas Oasis occupy a more earthy societal level if you will. I don't see true snobbery as you described as being more thought out in terms of it being a cynical popularity ploy, rather as a willful expression of ignorance masked by personal preference.

I wouldn't call the way you acted as a teenager snobbish, it was merely symptomatic of the tribal nature of the adolescent mind. Most people grow out of that.

According to wikipedia…

Snobbery appears when elements of culture are perceived as belonging to an aristocracy or elite, and some people (the snobs) feel that the mere adoption of the fashion and tastes of the elite or aristocracy is sufficient to include someone in the elites, upper classes or aristocracy.

So someone dismissing genres because they only listen to metal or rap is not imo being a snob, just merely being ignorant. A person who gets their musical cues from the likes of pitchfork, because of its supposed intellectual superiority to other websites and magazines, and is condescending and dismissive of anything outside that sphere is a snob.

Rigsby

I have being thinking about the general topic of this thread and IMO if a person really has a passion for and really loves the music they listen to, then they wont take offence, but actually feel sorry for the "snob" who is criticising it.

viadah

I'd still place snobbery alongside ignorance or at least a form of ignorance. I fell into the same kind of attitude briefly in the following years during my 'hardcore' phase, but while I see it in this manner, I can still see the point you make regarding snobbery and ignorance being seen as two differing states. One thing is evident regardless - neither snobbery nor ignorance are laudable states of mind.

Android 666

viadah wrote: »

One thing is evident regardless - neither snobbery nor ignorance are laudable states of mind.

Agreed

lordgoat

Jimmy Iovine wrote: »

That's exactly it I think. I'm a bit of a mystery in that I can't get involved in much of the 'popular' music of today that is aimed at my generation, but I can get totally engrossed in the lives and antics of black men in America.

Often time I don't think about the message or even the lyrics. I can fixate myself on one song on the basis of the delivery of the song, the beat of the instrumental or the flow of the rapper.

check out Blu (and Exile) if you don't know em.

Jimmy Iovine

lordgoat wrote: »

check out Blu (and Exile) if you don't know em.

I've been on that ish for months now. Stumbled across them one day on here. I think someone put up a video and I instantly went and downloaded "Below the Heavens". They have everything that I mentioned above. They've some new material coming out soon as well. Patiently waiting for it.

"So(ul) Amazing" has everything in it. Class drums, sick beat and a dope as **** flow. Superb song.

It's the kind of an album that when I heard it it made me tingle inside just like seeing Messi or Rooney pull off an effortlessly amazing trick. It doesn't happen all that often but having to trawl through the other shíte and listen to the people that spout Daily Mail influenced opinions on football makes it all the more special.

lordgoat

Jimmy Iovine wrote: »

I've been on that ish for months now. Stumbled across them one day on here. I think someone put up a video and I instantly went and downloaded "Below the Heavens". They have everything that I mentioned above. They've some new material coming out soon as well. Patiently waiting for it.

"So(ul) Amazing" has everything in it. Class drums, sick beat and a dope as **** flow. Superb song.

It's the kind of an album that when I heard it it made me tingle inside just like seeing Messi or Rooney pull off an effortlessly amazing trick. It doesn't happen all that often but having to trawl through the other shíte and listen to the people that spout Daily Mail influenced opinions on football makes it all the more special.

Ya i got them from the HipHop forum about a year ago. Loved that album. NoYork is worth listening too.

I actually said on twitter earlier that a Pirlo pass was so good it made me stand up and applaud it. It's little moments like that (and in songs) that are what it's all about for me. You know it when it happens and have the acumen to recognise it and take note. S hit's important aiight!

efb

Needing to feel superior is a sign of low self esteem - being happy without the approval of others is high self esteem

Jimmy Iovine

lordgoat wrote: »

Ya i got them from the HipHop forum about a year ago. Loved that album. NoYork is worth listening too.

I actually said on twitter earlier that a Pirlo pass was so good it made me stand up and applaud it. It's little moments like that (and in songs) that are what it's all about for me. You know it when it happens and have the acumen to recognise it and take note. S hit's important aiight!

I stood up and applauded Michael Carrick's pass against Bolton two weeks ago. One of the best that I've seen in a long time.

You should check out "Audition" by P.O.S. It's full of stand up and applaud moments.

nyarlothothep

I don't care for so called torch bearing bands like Tool or Mastodon, or Autechre, Aphex Twin or whatever. I've heard them, I've been bored by them, so I would be subjected to "received wisdom" and its pretty much obsolete in my mind because there are no musical sacred cows or artists that I should respect because a certain group happens to like them, it tends the way of musical heirarchy and I'm generally against heirarchy in all its manifestations within humanity for the consequences which result from it. That said sh1t music in a nightclub is alienating, so meh, both sides of the coin are just as bad as each other. Saying a band/artist is sh1t is ok however. Saying someone needs to change their musical taste to conform to your own isn't.

Kold

I think most of the musical snobbery incidents are caused by people being butthurt that someone thinks that their music sucks. They then go off into rants about 'subjectiveness' whilst ignoring the fact that it entitles people to subjectively think that their music sucks.

Also, how overrated was that Carrick pass? I prefer old Carrick, before he was at United. ****in casuals.

karaokeman

Kold wrote: »

I think most of the musical snobbery incidents are caused by people being butthurt that someone thinks that their music sucks. They then go off into rants about 'subjectiveness' whilst ignoring the fact that it entitles people to subjectively think that their music sucks.

I disagree, I think the whole "music is subjective" argument is used because if you say you like a band that is hugely looked down upon, people will make you feel bad about it.

I stated at the start of this thread that Coldplay and U2 fans are frowned upon. I listen to both and when I get arguments like "oh you listen to music for people who don't like music" I counter that with the subjective argument that a lot of posters here get worked up about.

Having said that and while I may not be a music snob by means of the anti-Coldplay/U2 fans argument I do enjoy to force my music upon others.

Like so.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTqUqP3XAM4

lordgoat

karaokeman wrote: »

I disagree, I think the whole "music is subjective" argument is used because if you say you like a band that is hugely looked down upon, people will make you feel bad about it.

I stated at the start of this thread that Coldplay and U2 fans are frowned upon. I listen to both and when I get arguments like "oh you listen to music for people who don't like music" I counter that with the subjective argument that a lot of posters here get worked up about.

Having said that and while I may not be a music snob by means of the anti-Coldplay/U2 fans argument I do enjoy to force my music upon others.

Like so.....

People make you feel bad about shi.t only if you let them. It's not their fault that they don't think what you listen to is awful. It's neither yours for liking it.

I agree with Kold.

The song you quoted is terrible. This doesn't make me a snob. I formed an opinon from listening to it.

It's derivative and sounds like a bad ball room singer. Although i wouldn't know what a good ball room singer is. It reminded me of Vic Reeves on Shooting stars. Also the bit of the song at 1.15 and also at 2:39 and 3:34 was robbed by him or from him, it's in some crappy boybands song and it's wrecking my head. Any help?

Also the least said about the lyrics and the awful guitar solo the better.

karaokeman

lordgoat wrote: »

People make you feel bad about shi.t only if you let them. It's not their fault that they don't think what you listen to is awful. It's neither yours for liking it.

I agree with Kold.

The song you quoted is terrible. This doesn't make me a snob. I formed an opinon from listening to it.

It's derivative and sounds like a bad ball room singer. Although i wouldn't know what a good ball room singer is. It reminded me of Vic Reeves on Shooting stars. Also the bit of the song at 1.15 and also at 2:39 and 3:34 was robbed by him or from him, it's in some crappy boybands song and it's wrecking my head. Any help?

Also the least said about the lyrics and the awful guitar solo the better.

Lordgoat thanks for listening to my video.

I respect you have your own opinion, mine is just different seen as how I posted it as a recommendation.

I generally don't expect posters will view videos like the one I posted, mainly because the artist is not very well known but you listened and formed an opinion on that basis so I won't complain about that.

Least you know Coldplay/U2/Muse etc. are just music for my ears. I know others who like them too, so again that falls into the "music is subjective" argument.

I don't follow football so I can't comment on the latter part of Kold's post.

I listened to the parts you named for the bits you felt were ripped off by some boyband(s). Can't help you with those bits but I assume it is something from the 70s like the Bee Gees or some other band like that because this song is from 1981. I doubt it was stolen from him by any modern pop bands seen as how this song is anything but mainstream.

Android 666

lordgoat wrote: »

Also the bit of the song at 1.15 and also at 2:39 and 3:34 was robbed by him or from him, it's in some crappy boybands song and it's wrecking my head. Any help?

Could this be magic by Take That?

karaokeman

Android 666 wrote: »

Could this be magic by Take That?

I'm guessing you mean the Adrienne Anderson and Barry Manilow version (1973) seen as how its the original and pre-dates the song I quoted (1981).

Android 666

karaokeman wrote: »

I'm guessing you mean the Adrienne Anderson and Barry Manilow version (1973) seen as how its the original and pre-dates the song I quoted (1981).

lordgoat had said about a boyband so I wasn't being too pedantic about it.

lordgoat

Android 666 wrote: »

lordgoat had said about a boyband so I wasn't being too pedantic about it.

Android, shame on both of us for knowing that. But yep that's what i was thinking of.

karaokeman

Android 666 wrote: »

lordgoat had said about a boyband so I wasn't being too pedantic about it.

I wasn't sure if he meant that the song I quoted was stolen by a post-1981 song or if it was stolen from a pre-1981 song.

I actually didn't think of Take That until your comment, I was more thinking along the lines of Stayin' Alive seen as how that came before.

Then again I don't know if the Bee Gees would qualify in yours or his book as a boy band, so I can't say for certain.

I'm pretty sure I've heard some Michael Jackson stuff with similar chord progressions too but that's probably going off-topic.

Oasis_Dublin

If you study something widely, then you should have a more informed opinion on a genre of music. I can't comment on Hungarian neo-classical flute playing, as an example, because I have never listened to it. I can comment, however, on British popular rock music from the late 1980s onwards.

The main problem I have with certain people's justifications for liking a certain band's music is by criticising other bands not for the sound of their music, but rather for the way in which the sound was created. Who cares how an album was made, really? As long as it sounds good, who cares?

rcaz

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

The main problem I have with certain people's justifications for liking a certain band's music is by criticising other bands not for the sound of their music, but rather for the way in which the sound was created. Who cares how an album was made, really? As long as it sounds good, who cares?

Ugh, this. I dunno if you play yourself but I play a good bit and I used to be way preoccupied with the techniques and processes involved in making the music than the actual music. Going to a gig and paying more attention to the equipment than the sounds. What a waste.

Dudess

Being a music snob is choosing to dismiss something, irrespective of its sound, based on being too commercial, too unoriginal, too "uncool", because certain "credible" quarters dislike it so to keep up with them etc. Big difference between the above and merely expressing your dislike for something, which seems to be what a number of people here consider music snobbery. People can say they dislike something if they want - and those who berate them for it are the snobs.

karaokeman

Dudess wrote: »

Being a music snob is choosing to dismiss something, irrespective of its sound, based on being too commercial, too unoriginal, too "uncool", because certain "credible" quarters dislike it so to keep up with them etc.

What I find stupid is those who claim to be "credible" assume you have only heard a band's singles. You can never know that unless someone says so themselves. I'm not a huge Radiohead fan for example, thats more based on the fact I found OK Computer quite an overrated album than what I thought of the rest of their material. And for many bands it is only their singles that are radio friendly.

Dudess wrote: »

Big difference between the above and merely expressing your dislike for something, which seems to be what a number of people here consider music snobbery. People can say they dislike something if they want - and those who berate them for it are the snobs.

Huge difference of course, I know of many people who disliked U2 only hearing what was on the radio until they listened to The Joshua Tree and Achtung Baby. I'm still ok with people who don't like those two records as there are plenty of people who genuinely dislike U2 and I accept that, just think bands like that should be given a fair chance.

Mindkiller

karaokeman wrote: »

I'm not a huge Radiohead fan for example, thats more based on the fact I found OK Computer quite an overrated album than what I thought of the rest of their material.

Unless I'm missing the point, it sounds like you're saying you don't like Radiohead because Ok Computer is overrated. Which shouldn't matter, really. Joshua Tree and Achtung Baby are overrated as well but it doesn't mean they're not fantastic. Kid A is better btw.

karaokeman

Mindkiller wrote: »

Unless I'm missing the point, it sounds like you're saying you don't like Radiohead because Ok Computer is overrated. Which shouldn't matter, really. Joshua Tree and Achtung Baby are overrated as well but it doesn't mean they're not fantastic. Kid A is better btw.

I'm not saying I don't like Radiohead, just saying they are overrated. I would probably not pay €70+ to see them live but you'd be far more likely to see me at one of their concerts than say a band I admittedly dislike - Blink 182.

Admittedly I haven't heard all of Kid A but I plan on doing so soon as some people have told me its better than OK Computer.

I find Radiohead overrated based on the OK Computer album and the other few songs from them I've heard.

Kold

Amnesiac is the superior album.

SureYWouldntYa

is anyone else sick of hearing "omg Coldplay got band of the year at the Brits, they're so ****, what ever happened to real music like Nirvana Foo Fighters Oasis. Get over yourself, Coldplay are the best British band, who else was up for the award that could win? Arctic Monkeys? Please.

Technocentral

SureYWouldntYa wrote: »

is anyone else sick of hearing "omg Coldplay got band of the year at the Brits, they're so ****, what ever happened to real music like Nirvana Foo Fighters Oasis. Get over yourself, Coldplay are the best British band, who else was up for the award that could win? Arctic Monkeys? Please.

The Brits are about as culturally significant as Coldplay ie; not at all.