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Romanian employee without work permit problem.

  • 24-01-2012 5:45pm
    #1
    morg
    Registered Users Posts: 35 ✭


    Hi folks,
    I've employed a Romanian national for the last 3 yrs. He's never had a work permit while living in Ireland. I wasn't aware of Bulgarian/Romanians requiring one and he never mentioned it. All I got in the beginning was his details & P.P.S number and he's been paying tax on his income ever since.
    I was injured recently and as a result have to let him go temporarily for a few months until I recover. We went to the social welfare office to arrange some sort of payment while he's off but was told he can't be processed without his work permit.
    It turns out that I've been employing him illegally for 3 years. I know very little about social welfare processes and I'd like to help him get fixed up asap.
    The W.P applicant must pay the fee so I'm looking at 1000 for a year or 500 for 6 months. Is a 6 month permit sufficient?
    If I pay for it will he be entitled to social protection or will I/he face more red tape?
    The W.P application process takes up to 12 weeks so what is he supposed to live on until everything is organized?
    The requirement for Romanian nationals to hold a W.P will end in 2014.
    Bare in mind that the injury will have healed in 2 months so everything will be back to normal and he'll be working full-time.

    Has anybody been in a similar situation before or can you offer any advice?

    Thanks in advance for any replies.


Comments

  • #2
    daniela.v
    Registered Users Posts: 4 ✭daniela.v


    Hi,
    You will find all the information you need on http://www.djei.ie/labour/workpermits/,also as I know is not enough 6 months work permit ,he will need 12 months work permit.


  • #3
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,145 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    When did he come to Ireland?

    I don't know details, but Romanian people who were here before <some date> don't actually need work permits at all.

    Not all Welfare staff know this.

    It would take some googling, but if he's been here for more than a few years, he may be legal. In which case, your only challenge is convincing Welfare of the rules!


  • #4
    Delancey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,451 ✭✭✭Delancey


    If he was illegal how could he have obtained a PPS number ?


  • #5
    Jagle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 870 ✭✭✭Jagle


    Delancey wrote: »
    If he was illegal how could he have obtained a PPS number ?

    bought one


  • #6
    User Friendly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,483 ✭✭✭User Friendly


    Jagle wrote: »
    bought one
    Primetime did a show on how easy it was to obtain a pps number.


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  • #7
    Jagle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 870 ✭✭✭Jagle


    User Friendly wrote: »
    Primetime did a show on how easy it was to obtain a pps number.

    hence my comment


  • #8
    ResearchWill
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,111 ✭✭✭ResearchWill


    morg wrote: »
    Hi folks,
    I've employed a Romanian national for the last 3 yrs. He's never had a work permit while living in Ireland. I wasn't aware of Bulgarian/Romanians requiring one and he never mentioned it. All I got in the beginning was his details & P.P.S number and he's been paying tax on his income ever since.
    I was injured recently and as a result have to let him go temporarily for a few months until I recover. We went to the social welfare office to arrange some sort of payment while he's off but was told he can't be processed without his work permit.
    It turns out that I've been employing him illegally for 3 years. I know very little about social welfare processes and I'd like to help him get fixed up asap.
    The W.P applicant must pay the fee so I'm looking at 1000 for a year or 500 for 6 months. Is a 6 month permit sufficient?
    If I pay for it will he be entitled to social protection or will I/he face more red tape?
    The W.P application process takes up to 12 weeks so what is he supposed to live on until everything is organized?
    The requirement for Romanian nationals to hold a W.P will end in 2014.
    Bare in mind that the injury will have healed in 2 months so everything will be back to normal and he'll be working full-time.

    Has anybody been in a similar situation before or can you offer any advice?

    Thanks in advance for any replies.

    AFAIK he is entitled to be self employed, it might be easier to go down that route. The WP is not guaranteed and he would have to satisfy the required income levels.

    In relation to the SW, I would think he should seek legal advice on that.

    Just as an aside does he have an Irish citizen child.


  • #9
    ResearchWill
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,111 ✭✭✭ResearchWill


    Delancey wrote: »
    If he was illegal how could he have obtained a PPS number ?

    He is not illegal, he has a right to enter, for a variety of reasons including, study or self employment, or if he has sufficient funds to maintain himself. A PPS number is not a right to work, if you do not have a work permit if required.


  • #10
    User Friendly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,483 ✭✭✭User Friendly


    Jagle wrote: »
    hence my comment
    you dont have to buy them Jagle......as it showed on primetime. i think the show aired in 2009

    i know plenty people who have overstayed here and have pps numbers


  • #11
    number10a
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,062 ✭✭✭number10a


    ResearchWill wrote: »
    AFAIK he is entitled to be self employed, it might be easier to go down that route.

    This is true. All EU nationals are entitled to live here and set up a business. However, Romanians and Bulgarians need permits to be employees until 2014, seven years after they joined the EU.

    Some more info here:

    http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/migrant_workers/employment_permits/work_permits.html

    and

    http://www.djei.ie/labour/workpermits/bulgariaromania.htm

    Sounds like what JustMary mentioned.If he was here before Romania joined the EU and was working legally then, he no longer needs a permit. If he came after accession, he needs one to be an employee.


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  • #12
    morg
    Registered Users Posts: 35 ✭morg


    Hi guys,
    Thanks for all the info and comments.
    I'll be dropping in the W.P application tomorrow or Friday. I rang the office and the guy said my employee will need a 1 yr permit. I'll be paying the cheque if application is accepted.
    It'll take a month before I find out if the application was successful.
    The employee was in the country a month or two before he started with my company. His PPS number is legit as we have his Revenue documents on file.


  • #13
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,145 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    Fair play to you, OP, it's good to hear of employers who look out for their staff.


  • #14
    User Friendly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,483 ✭✭✭User Friendly


    JustMary wrote: »
    Fair play to you, OP, it's good to hear of employers who look out for their staff.
    Indeed it is....... it also saves him a wad of cash in redundancy;)


  • #15
    MAR86
    Registered Users Posts: 59 ✭✭MAR86


    Jagle wrote: »
    hence my comment


    You can't buy a PPS number, you just have to apply for it with your passport and a bill on your name or your contract with the landlord, to prove you actually have an address. The PPS number doesn't entitle a romanian to anything, such as SW, right to work or other benefits. PPSN is just a registration number and foreigners have to apply for it if they plan to stay in Ireland for more than 3 months.


  • #16
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,145 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    User Friendly wrote: »
    Indeed it is....... it also saves him a wad of cash in redundancy;)

    For someone who was working illegally, yeah, right.


  • #17
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    JustMary wrote: »
    For someone who was working illegally, yeah, right.

    It doesn't matter if you are working legally or illegally.
    You have the same rights.


  • #18
    number10a
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,062 ✭✭✭number10a


    Moonbaby wrote: »
    It doesn't matter if you are working legally or illegally.
    You have the same rights.

    Morally, yes you should.

    But legally, what court is going to protect your employment rights if you've been breaking the law yourself in the first place? Granted, they'd protect some of your rights (essentially basic human rights and dignity), but not to the same level as a legal worker's rights.


  • #19
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    number10a wrote: »
    Morally, yes you should.

    But legally, what court is going to protect your employment rights if you've been breaking the law yourself in the first place? Granted, they'd protect some of your rights (essentially basic human rights and dignity), but not to the same level as a legal worker's rights.

    According to http://www.mrci.ie/

    Undocumented workers are entitled to


    • The right to shelter - You are entitled to apply for emergency accommodation if you find yourself homeless
    • The right to health care - You are entitled to visit a GP, a specialist, to be admitted into emergency and maternity services
    • The right to fair labour conditions - You are entitled to the same fair working conditions as any other worker and to seek redress if these rights are violated
    • The right to organise - You are entitled to join a trade union
    • The right to education and training - Your children have a right to attend primary and secondary school
    • The right to a minimum subsistence - You are entitled to apply for an Emergency Needs Payment from your local Community Welfare Officer
    • The right to family life - You are entitled to privacy and to form a life in the State
    • The right to moral and physical integrity - You are entitled to report a crime or a racist incident
    • The right to legal aid - you are entitled to free legal aid and to access the courts system



    There is a reason so many non EEA people are attracted here.
    And it is not the weather.


  • #20
    MAR86
    Registered Users Posts: 59 ✭✭MAR86


    Employment law in Ireland says that illegal workers (which are documented, but working ilegally) have no rights. An illegal worker can't apply for redundancy, can't apply for unfair dismissal with the EAT, can't receive SW.

    Even though the Revenue has granted the illegal worker with a Tax Credit Certificate based on which PAYE/PRSI is operated and your taxes are deducted, you are not entitled to anything!!! You need a work permit, this is the only legal way.




    Moonbaby wrote: »
    According to http://www.mrci.ie/

    Undocumented workers are entitled to


    • The right to shelter - You are entitled to apply for emergency accommodation if you find yourself homeless
    • The right to health care - You are entitled to visit a GP, a specialist, to be admitted into emergency and maternity services
    • The right to fair labour conditions - You are entitled to the same fair working conditions as any other worker and to seek redress if these rights are violated
    • The right to organise - You are entitled to join a trade union
    • The right to education and training - Your children have a right to attend primary and secondary school
    • The right to a minimum subsistence - You are entitled to apply for an Emergency Needs Payment from your local Community Welfare Officer
    • The right to family life - You are entitled to privacy and to form a life in the State
    • The right to moral and physical integrity - You are entitled to report a crime or a racist incident
    • The right to legal aid - you are entitled to free legal aid and to access the courts system



    There is a reason so many non EEA people are attracted here.
    And it is not the weather.


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