If Les Pauls are so great, then why...

seanwhite20

MilanPan!c wrote: »

And just think people paid over a grand for lots of pretty lame guitars.... For years. And now people sell them on Adverts for 1500 euro.

Sigh.

Eh yeah.....

EDIT:Never mind 1500, I saw an 04 standard on there for 1150 today!

BostonB

stetyrrell wrote: »

That's perfectly fine for a strat when you can swap necks and bodys like there's no tomorrow, but re-gluing and setting a Les Paul neck is a different story altogether

and it illustrates that the fenders were designed to be put together like lego for mass production and gibsons aren't. Also other brands have had their bad periods too.

MilanPan!c

seanwhite20 wrote: »

Eh yeah.....

EDIT:Never mind 1500, I saw an 04 standard on there for 1150 today!

Oof! That's exactly what I mean by the cult of Gibson. How many times has that guitar been flipped already?

Ravelleman

Well, the interwebz doesn't exactly represent all players. So one might ask how many times such and such a Gibson has been flipped. But one might also ask how many times such and such a user has tried to flip any type of instrument.

One might also say that no one sells their Yamaha MSG but then again how often do they try to trade it for a Gibson Flying V with a Kahler, or what ever it was...

MilanPan!c

Ravelleman wrote: »

Well, the interwebz doesn't exactly represent all players. So one might ask how many times such and such a Gibson has been flipped. But one might also ask how many times such and such a user has tried to flip any type of instrument.

One might also say that no one sells their Yamaha MSG but then again how often do they try to trade it for a Gibson Flying V with a Kahler, or what ever it was...

Well, go see how many 80s MSGs you can find for sale, then compare that to LPs.

I've been offered LPs for my SG2K and have turned them down because to me, it's a downgrade.

I'm not on Adverts to try and 'make money' but to make my rig perfect (player not collector). For years, as a kid, I wanted a killer LP, then I got a few, and played tons more, and realised they we're only 'ok'.

I also realised that that wasn't just my opinion, but that of many folks like me.

seanwhite20

MilanPan!c wrote: »

Oof! That's exactly what I mean by the cult of Gibson. How many times has that guitar been flipped already?

God only knows!!:eek:

BostonB

MilanPan!c wrote: »

Well, go see how many 80s MSGs you can find for sale, then compare that to LPs. ...

Of course that would have nothing to do with vast disparity in the numbers sold.

:rolleyes:

MilanPan!c

BostonB wrote: »

Of course that would have nothing to do with vast disparity in the numbers sold.

:rolleyes:

Oh no doubt the MSGs are more rare, which you know considering how well they're reviewed, how much better built they are than many many LPs, and how they sound so like (and better) than many LPs, should make them MORE valuable.

But that again speaks to the cult of the LP. Something more common and in many cases not as "good" or at least "equal to" sells for less.. But then again the MSGs are much harder to come by than the LPs, because people that own them don't sell them. Because, at the price they go for, you can't get a nicer LP like guitar. Or at least they're one of the best LP like guitars at their price-point.

To get a LP as well built and as good nice sounding you'd have to spend twice as much. At least.

Ravelleman

To my eyes, people who like alternative guitar brands - espcially MIJ brands like Yamaha - are far more cultish than Gibson fans. They have the same, if not greater desire to hoard information on fan sites, buy multiple examples of the same guitars and proselytize others to the brand. When people talk about Yamahas or Grecos or whatever they invariably tell us about how they're better than a Gibson. So not only do they follow the cult of alt brands, the also bow to Gibson in their thinking because Gibson certainly seems to dominate it.

Havermeyer

MilanPan!c wrote: »

Oh no doubt the MSGs are more rare, which you know considering how well they're reviewed, how much better built they are than many many LPs, and how they sound so like (and better) than many LPs, should make them MORE valuable.

But that again speaks to the cult of the LP. Something more common and in many cases not as "good" or at least "equal to" sells for less.. But then again the MSGs are much harder to come by than the LPs, because people that own them don't sell them. Because, at the price they go for, you can't get a nicer LP like guitar. Or at least they're one of the best LP like guitars at their price-point.

To get a LP as well built and as good nice sounding you'd have to spend twice as much. At least.

I've been following this thread for a while now, but can't help but notice that not only do you prefer other brands, you seem to have a hatred for gibson. Why does it bother you so much?

My two cents?

I do own a Les Paul :pac: , but I'm not going to let it colour my opinion - there are other guitars I prefer (I'm looking at you ES335 ), but sadly they are waaaaay out of my price range at the moment. Personally, I don't care who likes what guitar make/model and I wouldn't shed any tears if anybody critiqued any of the guitars I own.

I don't know many other people with LPs, but this cult of Gibson is new to me. I, like Ravelleman, have found that people who own/collect niche/alternative guitars tend to be more cultish with them.

Anyway, it seems as though Gibson's are more consistent since they invested in the pleking system.

I personally like the fact that each guitar that is built is slightly different to the next, and has it's own character - but maybe that's just me. :P

MilanPan!c

nummnutts wrote: »

I've been following this thread for a while now, but can't help but notice that not only do you prefer other brands, you seem to have a hatred for gibson. Why does it bother you so much?

My two cents?

I do own a Les Paul :pac: , but I'm not going to let it colour my opinion - there are other guitars I prefer (I'm looking at you ES335 ), but sadly they are waaaaay out of my price range at the moment. Personally, I don't care who likes what guitar make/model and I wouldn't shed any tears if anybody critiqued any of the guitars I own.

I don't know many other people with LPs, but this cult of Gibson is new to me. I, like Ravelleman, have found that people who own/collect niche/alternative guitars tend to be more cultish with them.

Anyway, it seems as though Gibson's are more consistent since they invested in the pleking system.

I personally like the fact that each guitar that is built is slightly different to the next, and has it's own character - but maybe that's just me. :P

Just to be clear I don't hate Gibson or many of their guitars. I do think though that their prices are often absurd and unjustifiable.

As for the MIJ cult, it does exist. I'm not member of any MIJ forums, etc., however and would take a badass LP if someone gbe it to me. I would still think about selling it though and buying three 'as good if not bettet' MIJ guitars. Or a Fano.

BostonB

MilanPan!c wrote: »

Oh no doubt the MSGs are more rare, which you know considering how well they're reviewed, how much better built they are than many many LPs, and how they sound so like (and better) than many LPs, should make them MORE valuable.

But that again speaks to the cult of the LP. Something more common and in many cases not as "good" or at least "equal to" sells for less.. But then again the MSGs are much harder to come by than the LPs, because people that own them don't sell them. Because, at the price they go for, you can't get a nicer LP like guitar. Or at least they're one of the best LP like guitars at their price-point.

To get a LP as well built and as good nice sounding you'd have to spend twice as much. At least.

You're thinking of instruments like a piece of machinery devoid of passion. MSGs are primary rarer because less people bought them originally. The better instrument, or the better value, doesn't make it more desirable. Its bit like old sports cars. Practicality and value usually has nothing to do with it.

It also doesn't help that so few famous players are associated with the MSG.

MilanPan!c

BostonB wrote: »

You're thinking of instruments like a piece of machinery devoid of passion. MSGs are primary rarer because less people bought them originally. The better instrument, or the better value, doesn't make it more desirable. Its bit like old sports cars. Practicality and value usually has nothing to do with it.

It also doesn't help that so few famous players are associated with the MSG.

I am absolutely not thinking of it as a piece of machinery, devoid of passion. Both my Yammys make me excited to play and inspire me.

I'm actually thinking that people are making poor decisions based on ignorance or labels or worse yet, as investments, not musical instruments. A machine of commerce.

Ravelleman

MilanPan!c wrote: »

I am absolutely not thinking of it as a piece of machinery, devoid of passion. Both my Yammys make me excited to play and inspire me.

I'm actually thinking that people are making poor decisions based on ignorance or labels or worse yet, as investments, not musical instruments. A machine of commerce.

Well, I suppose it depends on the aspect of the 'hobby' as a whole that interests you. Some clearly enjoy the collection part more than trying to 'make it' as a musician and, to be honest, who are we to judge.

Musical instruments may inspire a person to be creative, or whatever, but they are certainly not excluded from this culture of consumption that we live in. When guitars are being created and sold they are merely a product. Only once they're in the hands of the musician (consumer) does it become something more. They bring their values, desires and expectations to the fold and that's how these products get sold. In that sense they are all really machines of commerce, just like everything we buy throughout life.

BostonB

MilanPan!c wrote: »

I am absolutely not thinking of it as a piece of machinery, devoid of passion. Both my Yammys make me excited to play and inspire me.

I'm actually thinking that people are making poor decisions based on ignorance or labels or worse yet, as investments, not musical instruments. A machine of commerce.

... yet you leave out out simple desire, or passion as a reason.

Havermeyer

MilanPan!c wrote: »

I'm actually thinking that people are making poor decisions based on ignorance or labels or worse yet, as investments, not musical instruments. A machine of commerce.

So people who buy Gibsons are ignorant? Or simply want to make an investment?

Strange.

seanwhite20

nummnutts wrote: »

So people who buy Gibsons are ignorant? Or simply want to make an investment?

Strange.

Im guessing he's talking about people who bought poor quality Gibsons just because it says Gibson on the headstock..Then again, I may be wrong!

MilanPan!c

nummnutts wrote: »

So people who buy Gibsons are ignorant? Or simply want to make an investment?

Strange.

People, many people, buy a lowend Gibson, based on the name alone. Others, and I've seen it a million times, buy top end Gibsons, as an investment not to play, as they the cult of Gibson will probably make their investment more valuable. These are people that buy 10k guitars and stick them under their bed after playing them for five minutes, saint for thei value to go up. It's not uncommon.

BostonB

http://www.allmostexpensive.com/most-expensive-guitar.html

gerarda

BostonB wrote: »

http://www.allmostexpensive.com/most-expensive-guitar.html

I like!

seanwhite20

BostonB wrote: »

http://www.allmostexpensive.com/most-expensive-guitar.html

Very good not a LP in sight!

MilanPan!c

seanwhite20 wrote: »

Very good not a LP in sight!

Yeah, it's inaccurate. Slash owns a $750,000 LP.

Peter Green's apparently sold for 2M.

Malice

What's MIJ? I've seen it written a few times in this thread and I'm at a loss for what it means.

Doc_Savage

Malice wrote: »

What's MIJ? I've seen it written a few times in this thread and I'm at a loss for what it means.

Made In Japan...?

BostonB

MilanPan!c wrote: »

Yeah, it's inaccurate. Slash owns a $750,000 LP.

Peter Green's apparently sold for 2M.

Who knows. The point is this madness is not unique to Gibson.

BostonB

Malice wrote: »

What's MIJ? I've seen it written a few times in this thread and I'm at a loss for what it means.

Where are guitar is made, often has a bit impact on its price, desirability and sometimes quality. Usually its Made in China < Made in Mexico < Made in Japan < Made in USA. Fender used to print it on their headstocks. That said quality has varied a lot regardless of origin over the years. Some times its good in some places, bad in another.

MilanPan!c

BostonB wrote: »

Where are guitar is made, often has a bit impact on its price, desirability and sometimes quality. Usually its Made in China < Made in Mexico < Made in Japan < Made in USA. Fender used to print it on their headstocks. That said quality has varied a lot regardless of origin over the years. Some times its good in some places, bad in another.

Like with cars, originally MIJ meant meh, but then when the Japanese figured then could sell more cars if they just made very reliable (and cheap to run) cars the tide turned.

The whole MIJ stigma never REALLY disappeared with guitars, but there's a group of folks in guitar circles that find some MIJ guitars to be MORE desirable than their US counterparts...

This is what I'm after now, from 1978



MIJ fanatics are sure responsible for this site:

http://www.ibanezregister.com/Gallery/gallery-guit.htm

All of these belong to one guy:

http://www.ibanezregister.com/Gallery/groups/jorn%20heltborg.htm

WOW!

BostonB

One example MIJ seems to be closer to the older strats than the modern USA strats (for example) so thats part of the attraction.

Ostrom

Recently sold an LP, as my weak hands were unable to sustain a bar chord of any description above the third fret. Never could adjust to the radius.

seachto7

What do you think of guitars made in India, Indonesia, or China? (as opposed to Mexico or Japan)