Autistic child, no SNA, dangerous, who's responsible?

Sweetpea101

I have a gorgeous little boy in my class who is autistic. He came with the paperwork stating his need for an SNA and resource hours. After a number of months he got some of the resource hours but no sign of an SNA. His behaviour is both dangerous to himself and to the other children in the class. I have pointed this out to the principal with very clear examples of behaviour to illustrate each point. My principal does not dispute what I'm saying. My question is simple - if an accident occurs in the class, and I have clearly stated that the risk at this point is major, who is accountable, and how can I protect myself?

byhookorbycrook

Has an SNA been applied for?Did the SENO visit?Have you documented any and all incidents?

Sweetpea101

SNA has been applied for, and we've been given the lovely comment of "access" - there is an SNA in the school with a child with a prosthetic limb, so "access" is a joke. The SENO has visited and the only reason we got resource hours is that he witnessed the child going mental, screaming, kicking etc - otherwise we were going to get nothing - the SENO was in to cut hours that we had for other children. I have documented everything since the 1st of September. I'm writing behaviour logs for three children in the class, but he's the only one with a diagnosis - the other two are more than likely going to turn out to be anger management issues (tough backgrounds).

So??? What do you think???

ps Many thanks for reading and replying byhookorbycrook

iolar

Believe me, you will be messed around by the powers that be until there is a serious incident. Determined action is necessary. When I was working in special education as a teacher what I discovered was that under the Health and Safety Acts no imployee is obliged to work in a dangerous environment. If you have an unpredictable child who has assaulted someone or is deemed likely to assault you, you can refuse to work in that area. Check out the Health and Safety Acts ( They are on line somewhere) contact the school health and safety rep.Your union rep. and inform your Principal that failing a proper resolution of this problem you will refuse to work in that classroom. You will get an SNA, and very soon. Your school and the Dept of Ed will not want to be prosecuted under the Health and Safety Acts, if you end up in hospital. I had a situation like this in my career which was rapidly resolved in this way.

allprops

Loath as I am to recommend it, have you tried the parish pump, Local TD etc. The other alternative might be to get parents of other children in the class to write letters to the BOM, which could be forwarded to the Seno, this would not be to victimise the child but to get him what he needs.

Jolly Red Giant

allprops wrote: »

Loath as I am to recommend it, have you tried the parish pump, Local TD etc.

This would have to be done by the parents

allprops wrote: »

The other alternative might be to get parents of other children in the class to write letters to the BOM, which could be forwarded to the Seno, this would not be to victimise the child but to get him what he needs.

I would be worried about taking this approach - a teacher has a responsibility not to disclose personal information about a student to other students or other parents.

I would approach you union rep and ask them for assistance.

E.T.

I would get in contact with your union directly. I definitely feel that this situation is unfortunately becoming the norm. The word "access" makes me fume, it's absolute rubbish!

THENORTHSIDER

Being slightly on the other side as a parent of a child who is on the Autistic spectrum , I would ask what are the parents doing you don't mention them. We are going through the process of trying my son in a main stream school . It has been an ongoing process for about 5 months now. Huge work by ourselves, the mainstream school and the special school he goes to now all for a September start and he is doing an hour a week currently preparing him.. He has just seen the Psychologist who assesses him for suitablity for mainstream and we are awaiting that report.
I suppose to cut a long story short if he is to start in school in September it will have taken nearly 12 months of preparation. I am very surprised that you hadn't known a lot about the child and his circumstances before he started in your class.
You have been let down on several fronts firstly by your own school, secondly the childs parents,thirdly by the pre-school if he attended one and finally by the whole messed up departments who deal with SNA's.
My son is mild mannered but tends to get anxious and may have social issues in the bigger class room situation but I will be fighting extremely hard ( nothing new to me since he was diagnosed:mad:) for him to have access to full time support.
Feel free to ask any questions and if I can answer them I will:)

E.T.

THENORTHSIDER wrote: »

I will be fighting extremely hard ( nothing new to me since he was diagnosed:mad:) for him to have access to full time support.
Feel free to ask any questions and if I can answer them I will:)

The word "access" is a buzz word that's been thrown around for the last few years. In the reality of a school you can have 3 or 4 children with full time needs who have "access" to a full time SNA. On paper an individual child can be listed as having "access" to a full time SNA, but in reality this full time SNA could be shared with 3+ other children with severe needs.

We've fought for SNAs for different children over the last few years, and I don't want to sound pessimistic, but it's important to be realistic given the current situation.

THENORTHSIDER

Agreed 'access' is a buzz word but since I have started this whole process I have quickly discovered that all the relavent departments that I have dealt with work a 'Buzz' word type system. if you don't use the type of language that they understand and speak then its highly unlikely that they will entertain you.

My wife spent a whole weekend going through the Dept. of Eds information regarding the appointment and requirements for SNA's simply to put the language and jargon that they use in the parents report for the psychologist. Simply if you don't then you get no where.

Believe me E.T I have dealt with enough crap over the last 2 and 1/2 years to be far from optimistic regarding availability of services for my son and am fully aware of the misconceptions regarding SNA's and their availabilities. My son has been turned down for entitlements for reasons you wouldn't believe but we fought for him and thankfully have got them.

We will continue to use Buzz words and descriptive words that I despise using to get the resourses he requires for him to reach his full potential simply because Government departments know no better. And unless parents/guardians are prepared to do this then their child will not get services they require.

E.T.

Well fair play to both you and your wife, the more pressure that is put on from all parties involved in the SNA application process, the better. Hope I didn't come across too negative, just frustration with the whole system at this stage!

THENORTHSIDER

E.T. wrote: »

Well fair play to both you and your wife, the more pressure that is put on from all parties involved in the SNA application process, the better. Hope I didn't come across too negative, just frustration with the whole system at this stage!

I fully understand where you are coming from ET and how bad it was it is getting worse. But the more the issues are discussed I think (hopefully:)) people can educate themselves better and be successful in their efforts to gain access to resources for their children.

Early intervention is the key.

Sweetpea101

Thanks for all the replies, I really appreciate the time you're taking to read and reply.

The parents are a no-go, there are lots of other issues there, which obviously I'm afraid to go near for fear of identifying accidentally. But without breaching confidentiality I'm working in a socially deprived area that was a socially deprived area during the celtic tiger economy!

I really couldn't even entertain the idea of asking other parents to write letters because it would be so wrong to discuss one child with other parents, and I would hate to do that. Also, I have more than a few parents within the class who I suspect have issues over reading and writing.

Again with the local TDs etc, there are confidentiality issues and in our school we're anal about these things.

I would however consider the idea of the health and safety thing, but with the principal rather than on the principal. I have an amazing principal and really don't want to make negative impact on our relationship.

It's a disastrous situation and he's a lovely little boy, but it's so upsetting for him to be put in the classroom when it's a completely unsuitable environment for him. As for the interactive whiteboard, it is wasted in my class - he freaks out when I turn it on, freaks out screaming over certain colours, doesn't like if I put on a cd and turn it up for the class to hear. Sad, sad, sad - and this is the idea of the ordinary person paying for the collapse of the banking system - how ordinary is this little boy?????

Fizzical

OP, you have a good relationship with the Principal and I'm sure he/she wants to resolve the problem too.

Could you ask him/her for help in drafting a letter to the BOM about the situation? Or in drafting a letter to the Principal as Safety Officer of the school that the Principal would be willing to bring to the Board in order to plead for action?

State the problems and give examples. Use phrases that cannot be ignored by a BOM like 'fear for the safety of the children', 'prevented from following the curriculum', 'crisis point' etc. Once officially notified in writing the Board must take action or else they themselves will be legally liable.

If the Principal won't help with such a letter, write to the Board anyway on your own behalf. Any issues like this need to be in writing.

There are solutions if the Board is willing to take them - fight with the DES, send the child home, employ an SNA from the school's own funds.

But it comes down to this: if you think your students are unsafe with this child in the room, you shouldn't allow the class to continue. You are the responsible adult in that room.

And if you cannot teach the class due to the conditions within the class, refuse to take that class. Just down tools until it's sorted. It's extraordinary what can be accomplished when it has to be.

Accepting this situation is not helping any of the children.

Sweetpea101

Fizzical, many thanks for the reply, major food for thought. I would imagine the principal would be very willing to draft a letter with me, I will pop in and discuss that. I feel now that having accepted the situation up to now is part of the problem, but until I got the headspace of the Christmas holidays I had the attitude that every problem that occurred in my class reflected badly on me!! It took the Christmas break for me to realise that the situation is crazy and that I have been dealing with more than I should be and not addressing the real problems. I'd love for our esteemed minister to pop in to my classroom for an hour and then tell me that "access" to an SNA is the answer!!!

Again, many thanks for taking the time...

THENORTHSIDER

Sweetpea101 wrote: »

It's a disastrous situation and he's a lovely little boy, but it's so upsetting for him to be put in the classroom when it's a completely unsuitable environment for him. As for the interactive whiteboard, it is wasted in my class - he freaks out when I turn it on, freaks out screaming over certain colours, doesn't like if I put on a cd and turn it up for the class to hear. Sad, sad, sad - and this is the idea of the ordinary person paying for the collapse of the banking system - how ordinary is this little boy?????

I think you have answered your original question with this reply. It is very possibly the environment doesn't suit him. The child in question may not be able to work in the classroom of a mainstream school or may require a a mainstream school with a unit attached to help him integrate at a later date. At some point you are going to have to involve the Principal and the childs parents. I would strongly suggest that you does this sooner rather than later as the situation is not going to improve and it may prevent the child from ever being able to be thought in a mainstream classroom.

[But it comes down to this: if you think your students are unsafe with this child in the room, you shouldn't allow the class to continue. You are the responsible adult in that room.]

Not sure Fizzical if u have a child with an ASD but while I agree with you that all students must be protected , to a child with an ASD being in a situation that is uncomfortable is a a terrible place to be . The anxiety and stress that the child experiences is extremely upsetting.

lastly all children are entitled to an education in a mainstream setting but some will require additional resources to help them achieve their potential. In the OP's circumstances extra assistance is needed and no one is benefiting until the assistance is given.

Sweetpea101

The Northsider, many thanks for the reply - both the parents and the principal have been involved from the word go. I have on many occasions sat the parents down and gone through my notes, I have asked them to contact a specialist unit, etc etc, but to no avail. I have been in with the principal on an almost daily basis in relation to this child since the 1st of September. It's a shocking and horrendous situation and I don't see an end to it. There is a similar situation in the school but in another class, and that child has stabbed and bitten teachers and still is in the school but is on short days. It is disgraceful what goes on and what we're supposed to tolerate, and especially what the other children have to tolerate.

I don't think mainstream is unsuitable for my little man, I know it's unsuitable, but who is going to place him appropriately??? Until then, I need to look out for him and look out for the rest. It's a strange situation, June can't come quick enough!

E.T.

Have you been in touch with the INTO sweetpea? They may be able to give advice on legal aspects of this situation.

dambarude

Going by what you've said the child clearly needs to be in an ASD unit.

Could you or somebody else explain to the parents that this mightn't be as 'taboo' a location as they might think? i.e. That they're attached to mainstream schools, the children integrate with other classes, that they are often gradually introduced to mainstream for a few hours a day as they get more used to the setting etc. I worked in one briefly, and it was clear that the children were coming on in leaps and bounds - in a way they just couldn't in a fulltime mainstream setting.

clary

i can relate to your situation, i was wondering does anyone have any advice when a serious incident/injury does occur and the principle refuses to call in any behaviour support and insists that the children are placed back in a room together, despite all the staff insisting they can not assure the safety of the children or the adults in that room.these would be particularly vunerable children with a much older child. and not a main stream school

E.T.

clary, I'd put concerns in writing FAO All members of Board of Management.

Also contact staff unions, advice in situations like this is why most people are members.

clary

thanks i am in contact with the union. we have been told that as sna we are not allowed to contact the bom. infact we have been threatened with dismissal if we speak to anyone citing gross misconduct on confidentialty.....that came from the chairperson of the board.i guess i wondering what my legal rights are. i sustain physical attacks from a child taller and stronger than me daily.the environment is not suitable to manage the behaviour.its v dangerous.im very much torn between my duty to the one child and to the others in the room but because of one child, or rather because one families refusal to deal with these issuses at least 3 others are in danger.and a principle who wants it all kept quiet....what do you do????

E.T.

That sounds very odd that you can't contact the BOM as an SNA. They're your employer and have a duty of care to you as an employee. They also have a duty as an employer re health and safety in the school. Was it the principal or the union told you that you can't contact the BOM?

clary

the principle and chairperson of the board. it is a v bad situation with serious level of incompetence, which has led to such a serious set of circumstances that has allowed the development of the predicament the we now find ourselves in.communication between parents and staff has been severed.in truth there is an issue of bullying but it has been made clear to staff that jobs are on the line and there are alot of scared people.....just as an example i was refused a risk assessment for a child with challenging behaviour who was to leaves school premises to travel on foot through a town alone with an sna.

E.T.

It sounds like a fairly complicated situation. As far as I'm aware, what I've said above about duty of care of the BOM to employees stands and the health and safety issues too.

I think if I was in a situation where I felt in danger, or that there was a dangerous situation I'd be putting it in writing to all members of the BOM (especially if you're being fobbed off), just to cover myself in case of any future incidents. I'd keep it very clear and factual, giving actual examples of incidents, but not names.

I'd also be back on to the union asking for clearer advice, that's why you pay them.

clary

thanks for that advice. it does help, it is a complicated situation and whilst one knows the right way of doing things it can be so hard particularly when you know a child may suffer. i think your right though and it is an issue that needs to go to the board. ive been thinking same thing myself but good to hear some one else say it!

THENORTHSIDER

Sweetpea I am doing Law as a module on a course I'm currently attending. Last night we covered The Equal status Act and Education and there is a provision in which deals with the situation you find youself in. Where providing education to an individual has a serious detrimental effect on the provision of education to other students it would be in everyones interest to move the student to a more suitable envoirnment. The clas is entitled to this and so is the individual student.

Thats the easy part how you would go about acting on that Act I'm not sure.

For all concerned the sooner the student is in a suitable place to help him the better.

Sweetpea101

Thanks very much for that info Northsider, I'm looking into that, get it all in writing and get going on it. The whole situation is incredibly complicated and there's a serious possibility that the child may end up in care. We really are dealing with a terribly sad situation and that poor child is getting the rough end of the stick in more ways than one. His needs are immense and they're not even nearly being met. He's such a lovable child and he deserves for his life to be much more simple and straightforward than it is.

THENORTHSIDER

have info if u needed any just ask if u need it GOOD LUCK

Sweetpea101

TheNorthsider, many thanks for that, I could be back to you - we had our SENO in recently and I don't fancy our chances for an SNA - but he was only gone from the class about two hours and the child headbutted me for not talking to him! That was his first intentional act of violence but my fear is how long will it take for his second and how bad is it going to get?? It's a very sad situation and the child's parents are of zero assistance!!