(USA) Suspect with crowbar gunned down

kincsem

How is this in Cool Vids?

salonfire

Overheal wrote: »

The use of force was justifiable.

Unbelievable. After the first 5 shots, what did he do to warrent another 5 being pumped into him?

He was clearly falling away by the time the second round of shots were fired.

JCDUB

I love reading posts from all the armchair military/firearms/police tactics experts that have come out of the woodwork for this thread.

Fucking ridiculously excessive reaction from the policeman. They are supposed to be trained to deal with these situations in a reasonable manner. Firing 5 shots at his chest from point blank range is not reasonable.

There were enough of them there to use their training and diffuse the situation, and if they weren't capable of that they shouldn't be police officers in the first place.

Overheal

JCDUB wrote: »

I love reading posts from all the armchair military/firearms/police tactics experts that have come out of the woodwork for this thread.

Fucking ridiculously excessive reaction from the policeman. They are supposed to be trained to deal with these situations in a reasonable manner. Firing 5 shots at his chest from point blank range is not reasonable.

There were enough of them there to use their training and diffuse the situation, and if they weren't capable of that they shouldn't be police officers in the first place.

Oh Really?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cX5CPx4RKWw

by the way do you not see the irony of your own post?

He was clearly falling away by the time the second round of shots were fired.

Actually from what I saw he was still standing upright, though he had spun completely around he was still on his feet. Cops had to assume he was either wearing a protective vest, or was drugged up on something, or both.

salonfire

Overheal wrote: »

Actually from what I saw he was still standing upright, though he had spun completely around he was still on his feet. Cops had to assume he was either wearing a protective vest, or was drugged up on something, or both.

Because he was still standing upright, he deserved another 5 rounds?!
He was absolutely no threat before the second 5 rounds he swallowed.

That is shocking.

Land of the free. Where the police are judge, jury and executioner on a fast food parking lot.

V_Moth

Overheal wrote: »

Oh Really?

by the way do you not see the irony of your own post?

Actually from what I saw he was still standing upright, though he had spun completely around he was still on his feet. Cops had to assume he was either wearing a protective vest, or was drugged up on something, or both.

Do you not see the irony in your post?

The English police officers eventually overpowered the suspect and arrested him.

Number of bullets fired: 0
Number of people killed: 0
Number of people properly arrested (and most likely prosecuted): 1/1

As someone commented on the youtube video you posted: "You don't solve crime with murder".

Overheal

And it took 30 of them. There were 2 police officers in the OP. And one was about to be mauled with a crowbar when he was caught of guard reloading his non-lethal first choice.

I don't think you understand irony. What I was referring to is a post complaining about armchair experts that then goes on to make an expert assumption that it was excessive.

Don't get me wrong it would be *amazing* if there were always 30 cops on retainer for any given situation, but in all seriousness. You don't find it just a little bit bewildering that it took 30 officers to defeat one machete? And how many Gardai would it take? How many have you got? How many Gardai would it take, to bring down 1 suspect with a handgun? 48?

salonfire wrote: »

Because he was still standing upright, he deserved another 5 rounds?!
He was absolutely no threat before the second 5 rounds he swallowed.

How do you know? Again, he was still on his feet after 5 rounds, he could have very easily still been a threat, especially if wearing body armor or being up on narcotics. Crazier things have happened.

Land of the free. Where the police are judge, jury and executioner on a fast food parking lot.

Oh that old tired line. They aren't any of those things. They're police officers. The law, clearly defined, gave them the authority to shoot. They tried verbal instruction, a Taser, and before they could try other non-lethal alternatives, he came to within inches of taking off a cop's face. The gun was the only available option at that precise moment. The law is very clear that in that moment the cop had more right to life than the suspect did.

And what's more? An investigation, likely overseen by a judge, will still be left to determine if what they did was legal or not.

I'm more than willing to hear how you think the situation could have been handled any differently, I just hope that you somehow find a way that doesn't involve the cop getting killed with a crowbar.

Voodu Child

The incompetence of the police officers lead to them putting themselves in a position where they felt they needed to use deadly force.

Of course the bulk of the blame has to go towards the guy who decided to walk around smashing things with a crowbar. But the cops made several very incompetent decisions and actions which lead to the use of lethal force.

That's the problem with an arbitrarily armed police force. A certain % of people in most walks of life are incompetent, police are no exception.

Overheal

Voodu Child wrote: »

The incompetence of the police officers lead to them putting themselves in a position where they felt they needed to use deadly force.

Of course the bulk of the blame has to go towards the guy who decided to walk around smashing things with a crowbar. But the cops made several very incompetent decisions and actions which lead to the use of lethal force.

That's the problem with an arbitrarily armed police force. A certain % of people in most walks of life are incompetent, police are no exception.

You say they make several incompetent decisions yet fail to enumerate them.

Voodu Child

Overheal wrote: »

You say they make several incompetent decisions yet fail to enumerate them.

As the guy exits the building, they've backed themselves into a corner. Distance is the simplest defence against someone armed with a wielded weapon.

Then the guy on the left closes in for no reason against an armed suspect all the while looking down and fumbling with his taser. He's not even watching where he is going.

He escalated the situation and he put himself in a vulnerable position close to a suspect with a weapon, forcing his equally incompetent partner to riddle the guy with bullets.

sgb

If you are going to shoot, shoot to kill, one bullet or six bullet's

good riddance to bad rubbish

Overheal

Voodu Child wrote: »

As the guy exits the building, they've backed themselves into a corner. Distance is the simplest defence against someone armed with a wielded weapon.

They were not in a corner of any description. They wanted to get behind the suspect, is my reckoning.

Then the guy on the left closes in for no reason against an armed suspect all the while looking down and fumbling with his taser. He's not even watching where he is going.

Incorrect. "All the while" returned {False};

He closed to use his Taser. Tasers do not have long range in the best of conditions, and this is a guy who was wearing heavy clothing and a hoodie. The only point for a taser barb to create an electrical current is the suspect's face. He then had to re-arm the taser when the shot failed to incapacitate the suspect.

He escalated the situation and he put himself in a vulnerable position close to a suspect with a weapon, forcing his equally incompetent partner to riddle the guy with bullets.

He escalated the situation by using nonlethal avenues of enforcement which failed in the given situation. The suspect then felt for whatever reason that attacking a police officer was a good idea. No blame for the suspect?

Overheal

Decided to look for a follow up, and found this:

http://www.tntmagazine.com/news/world/video-la-police-shoot-man-outside-carls-jr

A man who threatened police in LA with a metal bar was gunned down by police outside a fast food restaurant on Monday.

Shocking footage was recorded of the event by teen bystanders outside the Carl’s Jr. burger chain in the notoriously violent California city.

The mystery man was electrocuted with a Taser by officers on the scene but still refused to stand down. He had reportedly smashed the windows of the restaurant with a crowbar or metal piping before being confronted outside in the car park.

The video shows the man removing the Taser spikes and moving towards the police officer, who then shoots him with a pistol five times. After stumbling and spinning around, he continues to try and attack the officer and so they retaliate with five more shots. A bystander can be heard exclaiming 'Dude they shot him so many times!'.

There have been shocked reactions to the footage, with angry reactions to the overuse of lethal force. During the filming, the teenagers who are filming using a phone camera comment 'They could have done something f***in’ different than f***in’ shoot him, use a baton or some s**t.'

The most popular comment on YouTube from user Lesinki who says “These cops are clearly murderers, and there is no question about it. In any European country they would end up in prison, serving 10-25 years. If they got away with what they did to that kid without punishment, the U.S. truly is a wild, sick country...”

The man later died in hospital.

The man, later, died in hospital.

Just in case anybody was in any doubts that one bullet is enough? Obviously I'm inferring here that even after being recipient of 10 rounds, the suspect was still alive at the scene, and arrived at the hospital before giving up the ghost.

[Jackass]

Ah lads, if this guy was arrested for smashing a few windows and then swinging a pipe at a cop and he was sentenced to death by a judge, you'd all be thinking WTF?!?!

There is no way lethal force was appropriate in this instance. He did not have a lethal weapon, he had not harmed any member of the public, and he was possibly mentally ill.

A cop has no right to decide if he should live or die in that instance, and even if the cop decided to open fire, 1 shot may be acceptable, 2 is bordering excessive, if you can put it down to inexperience or panic, but this guy was shot TEN times, 5 of which were when his back was turned and after a brief pause.

I know a cops job is difficult, particularly in the states, where it is also a lot more dangerous, but this is extremely excessive, and at no point is it reasonable to assume that any persons life was at risk.

The reason this video is on youtube is that it was reported in the papers that the suspect swung and attacked a female officer, swinging the a crowbar TWICE ( when in fact it was a tool for shaping piping, with no sharp edges, and only swung once at a male officer, from a distance, while maced in the face, and probably blind) .

The person put the video on youtube so the family can have it for evidence, and also several news agencies attempted to buy the copy right from the poster, which he refused, so the family can have the money to use towards legal expenses.

youtube description wrote:

If anyone can please help me find Steven Rodriguez direct family i would greatly appreciate it, Ive had networks offer money for licensing rights to this video and upon denying them, i then thought that maybe his family could use this money for attorney expenses or whatever, if anyone knows this persons family and can message me through my YouTube account it would be greatly appreciated. Thank You.

I know as some may think it is a disgrace to have this video up and online, it is only online because of a false report i read before posting about how a female officer stated that Steven swung twice at the officer which is completely false. thus the video is up to show the truth of what happened that day and throw away any hearsay or falsified reports.

Original VIDEO as seen on CBS KCAL ABC FOX and Univision34

To my account this is what i witnessed, this is only my view of what i saw while i was on the scene and NOTHING more.

After people were running out side of the Carls Jr. a man holding what looked like to be a metal pipe bender was walking very slowly and calmly toward the side of Carls Jr. very nonchalantly smashing in the windows with his weapon, he then walked into the fast food restaurant. while the suspect was inside the police arrived and set up to the right of the enterance. the police told the suspect, some command i was unable to hear, the suspect then walked out side and well the rest can be seen from the video, at the time it was believed that he was shot with rubber pellets and sadly that wasn't case. The suspect seemed to be shot 5 times while facing the officer and then shot at 5 times again while his back was turned to the officer, allegedly of course




MONTEREY PARK, Calif. (KABC) -- A suspect armed with a crowbar was shot outside of a Carl's Jr. restaurant in Monterey Park on Monday morning.

Authorities say the incident began with the suspect breaking windows at Carl's Jr. in the 1200 block of Avenida Cesar Chavez just before 9:30 a.m. The suspect then walked inside, while workers and customers ran outside.

Police arrived as the suspect was exiting the fast-food restaurant. After repeatedly telling the suspect to drop the weapon, the suspect was Tasered.

Police said the Taser was ineffective, and the suspect swung the three-foot metal bar at officers twice. At least one officer opened fire on the suspect.

The suspect was taken to a local hospital, where he was pronounced dead.

No one else was injured in the incident. The officer-involved shooting is under investigation.

(Copyright ©2012 KABC-TV/DT. All Rights Reserved.)

Witcher

[Jackass] wrote: »

at no point is it reasonable to assume that any persons life was at risk.

He turned and raised it against the officer who was reloading his taser...the cop was defenceless, if he had landed that on his head it's not outrageous to assume it would have killed him outright. He had a cop pointing a gun in his face and still chose raise the crowbar..not to be cold hearted but frankly that's asking for it. I'm not justifying the shooting but really people are making out the guy was a saint there, the cop was reacting to an incident that happened in a split second. At the end of the day the guy with the crowbar made his decision, nobody forced him to walk around with it or turn to attack an officer. To say one shot would have done it is ridiculous too, the guy doesn't even flinch until the third shot is fired.

[Jackass]

What happened to an old fashioned tackle on the guy? 3 or 4 officers just rush him from behind, he's surrounded...

Put it this way, if you were on the street with 10 of your mates, who just happened to recieve full police training, and a guy comes at you with a metal bar, do you think you'd need to kill him to defuse the situation?

Overheal

I'm not a fan of repeating something already gone over on the thread. He was still alive after 10 rounds and a taser charge to the face. One bullet, wouldn't have done anything.

What happened to an old fashioned tackle on the guy?

Widowed officer's wives happened.

Witcher

[Jackass] wrote: »

What happened to an old fashioned tackle on the guy? 3 or 4 officers just rush him from behind, he's surrounded...

Put it this way, if you were on the street with 10 of your mates, who just happened to recieve full police training, and a guy comes at you with a metal bar, do you think you'd need to kill him to defuse the situation?

Rush him? Seriously? The criminal is wielding a short range melee weapon and you suggest they engage in close quarters unarmed combat?...Yes rushing him is the answer. If they have an item(a firearm) which doesn't require the risk involved in closing the distance to him and tackling him why not use it? The cop obviously drew his gun to defuse the situation not to intentionally shoot him, the guy no doubt saw the gun and still attempted to swing the crowbar necessitating the cop to shoot him. The guy with the crow bar is at fault here.

These hypothetical situations are useless in analysing this video, he didn't have time to consider the options or the ethics of the situation, the guy turned and raised a weapon against a police officer, he either shot him or let it play out and probably end up with a fellow officer dead. It's easy for us to pass judgement when we can play the video over and over and consider differing options of how to deal with it, he had a split second to realise the threat and decide whether to potentially end someone's life, hardly a walk in the park and something the average person watching the video will never have to experience. It's a regrettable situation for all involved but to blame the cop is ridiculous.

[Jackass]

Well if you read my posts, I'm not blaming the cop, and in fact say that I could understand a shot being fired, but ten??

I just think it's excessive and tantamount to murder, and I don't accept you assertion that not shooting him ten times would "probably end up with a fellow officer dead." Particularly the final 5 shots, where his back was turned and being shot as he is retreating / going to ground.

In my opinion, absolutely no ones life was in danger, and the situation was under control, even with the half blind man swinging a bar around, lethal force is not required, and further tazering and macing was still an option and everybody can maintain a safe distance. But we'll have to agree to disagree I guess.

kraggy

minidazzler wrote: »

You've never shot a firearm have you? And you know very little about ballistics in general. You never aim for legs, if you do you will probably miss and then the rounds will ricochet and then you don't know where they are going.

He lunged with a deadly weapon, he made the move while guns were pointed at him, he messed up, he died. His fault.

If he had hit the officer and killed or seriously injured him, what then? He serves a few years in prison, gets out tougher while the family of the officer are down a husband/father/son or he is injured to the extent that he is a burden on his family.

The guy just had to drop his weapon and he would have lived, that easy, but he made a move...the wrong move.

The legs aren't the ideal place to aim for but he wasn't moving fast. I've used a Glock 17 which is used by many police forces in the US. The first time I shot one I hit 6 of my 10 shots in a square foot on a target 21 feet away, which is 7 metres.

They could have easily hit his legs from where they were standing. Even if they couldn't, why unload TEN BULLETS on him? There was no need for it. He was on the way to the ground after the first 5. The threat was eliminated.

That's murder in my eyes. If he was holding a gun I'd say fair enough but he wasn't.

Overheal

kraggy wrote: »

The legs aren't the ideal place to aim for but he wasn't moving fast. I've used a Glock 17 which is used by many police forces in the US. The first time I shot one I hit 6 of my 10 shots in a square foot on a target 21 feet away, which is 7 metres.

They could have easily hit his legs from where they were standing. Even if they couldn't, why unload TEN BULLETS on him? There was no need for it. He was on the way to the ground after the first 5. The threat was eliminated.

That's murder in my eyes. If he was holding a gun I'd say fair enough but he wasn't.

The extra 5 rounds I'm sure will be the subject of a rather prolonged investigation, and maybe even a lawsuit if this guy had a family that gave a **** about him. The people of Los Angeles county could probably also take the case to court, if they wanted to.

As for the leg theory, you are not going to waste the few seconds available to you to try that out. He still could have hit the other cop. Secondly, most would view shooting the suspect in the legs as police brutality (ironic I am sure to sensitive readers). I remember I once played World of Darkness with a few friends and when I stumbled into a room of the dungeon with 3 guards, I busted them all in the kneecaps using an M-14. So they wouldnt run away or hit any alarms, but I didn't want to necessarily kill them. I still got the strangest looks around our kitchen table though, like I was some kind of psychopath for making them lay there writhing on the ground.

Niallwithaz

In regards to the OP's video, who is the guy in the black jumper on the left of the shot who shows up at around 16 seconds in? A 32 seconds in he appears to be carrying an gun or weapon of some sort, I'm not really sure. I was thinking he was an undercover cop but he doesn't get involved at all.

Pacifist Pigeon

I don't want to go on a J1 visa anymore. I'll go to Canada instead.

Seriously like, everyone's so trigger-happy over there in the US. Why didn't they mace he or tazer him? Did they really need to shoot him 10 times?

Anyone who could so willingly and casually put an end to someone's life like that is seriously fucked up in the head. The people laughing and gearing in the background don't give off the best impress either.

Overheal

Pacifist Pigeon wrote: »

I don't want to go on a J1 visa anymore. I'll go to Canada instead.

Seriously like, everyone's so trigger-happy over there in the US. Why didn't they mace he or tazer him? Did they really need to shoot him 10 times?

Anyone who could so willingly and casually put an end to someone's life like that is seriously fucked up in the head. The people laughing and gearing in the background don't give off the best impress either.

They did. Thanks for watching.

Pacifist Pigeon

Overheal wrote: »

They did. Thanks for watching.

I didn't see any tazer.

Overheal

Then you didn't look very hard.

http://www.taser.com/products/military/taser-x26-ecd

Also therein finally lies a question I had earlier: Taser cartridges can vary on the type, from as short as 15ft to 35ft. I'm assuming though the officer did not have one of the high penetration cartridges advertised, given the taser shot seemed to be so ineffective.

http://www.taser.com/products/military/taser-cartridges

HUNK

Pacifist Pigeon wrote: »

I didn't see any tazer.

Its at the bit where they say "...Oh right in his face!"
He then pulls the thing out of his face and after about 2 or 3 seconds, turns around and decides he's going to hit the officer.

yuloni

This post has been deleted.

BigDuffman

JCDUB wrote: »

I love reading posts from all the armchair military/firearms/police tactics experts that have come out of the woodwork for this thread.
.

Amazing how many military/firearms/police tactics experts actually frequent boards. They even have their own forums! How dare they bring their understanding of such situations to the discussion.

I'd much prefer if we had some COD experts telling us how they should of used the throwing knife and riot shield combiation. Sure with the commando perk they could of stabbed him in the hand from across the street.

GreeBo

Why didnt they wait to see what happened after the first shot to decide that he needed 4 (well 9!) more?

I think they have left themselves open for an excessive force issue because of this.