(USA) Suspect with crowbar gunned down

Jaafa

Fact of the matter, 99% of us would have reacted the same way had we been in that cops shoes, don't BS yourself into believing you could have reacted differently, I bet anyone would have shot at least 3 times at the guy in the given situation, never mind the fact he was clearly threatening the cop's partner with a very lethal weapon from very close range. Add some panic at seeing this happening right in front of you and I can see how he got to 10 shots, hell the guy wasn't even dead after that many.

The other thing is people saying 'isn't 10 shots excessive'? Sure but if it was 5, or 3 you'd probably say the same, why not just one or two etc etc.

Get off your high horses, you would have acted the very same.

Overheal

BigDuffman wrote: »

Amazing how many military/firearms/police tactics experts actually frequent boards. They even have their own forums! How dare they bring their understanding of such situations to the discussion.

I'd much prefer if we had some COD experts telling us how they should of used the throwing knife and riot shield combiation. Sure with the commando perk they could of stabbed him in the hand from across the street.

Truth be told there are plenty of military and police trained personnel that use boards as much as anyone else. I'm not one of them, I'm just one of the few people that actually take into consideration some of the things they have corrected me on over the years, like head shots, logic that I picked up from counter strike, not reality. Still many people over exaggerate the lethality of bullets, particularly the low calibre ones.

GreeBo wrote: »

Why didnt they wait to see what happened after the first shot to decide that he needed 4 (well 9!) more?

I think they have left themselves open for an excessive force issue because of this.

Because Wait and See wouldn't have really been the best call when the guy was about 2 seconds away from hitting the cop with a weapon. One bullet from a service pistol wouldn't have the power to really prevent that. There are also considerations for accuracy and where you hit. Wouldn't have done much if you end up hitting him with your first bullet in some superficial location with few nerves. Or again, if the perpetrator was wearing some kind of body armor, it wouldn't have done much. He would've gotten his swing off and then what would have happened to the taser-officer?

On a side note, Officers are always left to answer for their actions, most especially when discharging their firearms. The laws require them to. If he fires his weapon, he has to explain why. If he kills someone, he has to explain why. The authorization for use of deadly force is not a blank cheque, despite what critics on this website choose to believe.

[Jackass]

Jaafa wrote: »

Fact of the matter, 99% of us would have reacted the same way had we been in that cops shoes, don't BS yourself into believing you could have reacted differently, I bet anyone would have shot at least 3 times at the guy in the given situation, never mind the fact he was clearly threatening the cop's partner with a very lethal weapon from very close range. Add some panic at seeing this happening right in front of you and I can see how he got to 10 shots, hell the guy wasn't even dead after that many.

The other thing is people saying 'isn't 10 shots excessive'? Sure but if it was 5, or 3 you'd probably say the same, why not just one or two etc etc.

Get off your high horses, you would have acted the very same.

I can say with absolute certainty, that if I was on my own, in a situation like that, not as a cop or anything, and had a gun and someone was after me with a metal bar, I would not unload 10 bullets in him if I did (but interestingly enough, if this situation did occur, would the person be called using self defence and not be arrested, or spend the rest of their life in jail for murder?), but I know in Ireland, people carry around knives, our cops wear stab vests, we've got gang crime, presumably many a metal pipe and worse has been pulled on Irish cops, and I've never ever heard of a cop being killed, let alone bludgened to death with 10 other cops present.

There is simply no scenario where this was reasonable force, and it concerns me that people think for a second that this could be acceptable. If he was carrying a gun, shoot him 20 times for all I care, but the bottom line is that no one's life was in danger. It's as simple as that.

Ten cops should be capable of arresting a man holding a pipe without the need to put 10 bullet holes in him, it's either lazy policing where murder is a tactic of control, or a completely incompetent force operating in an extremest country so fu*king nuts, that they think this is ok....like Saudi Arabia with beheadings, with locals just as blind to how pre-historic and medievil their country is. And these are the guys with the nukes....

God help us all :rolleyes:

garv123

JCDUB wrote: »

I love reading posts from all the armchair military/firearms/police tactics experts that have come out of the woodwork for this thread.

Fucking ridiculously excessive reaction from the policeman. They are supposed to be trained to deal with these situations in a reasonable manner. Firing 5 shots at his chest from point blank range is not reasonable.

There were enough of them there to use their training and diffuse the situation, and if they weren't capable of that they shouldn't be police officers in the first place.

Boards.ie has military, shooting, hunting and target shooting forums with a lot of posters on each one with people from the uk and states posting on them too. They know a thing or two about firearms and ammo.

Yes they are trained to defuse a situation and they tried use the taser gun that had 0 effect. They only fired a shot when he lifted the pipe to the cop who was trying to reload the taser gun. If he didnt lift the pipe he wouldnt have gotten shot.

10 shots was a bit over the top though 3-5 shots were instinct reaction to protect his partner, he then paused while the man stumbled and a second later he fired 5 more which IMO was excessive. The man didnt even have a chance to hit the deck before the 5 more were fired at him.

Overheal

[Jackass] wrote: »

10 other cops present.

where do you get that figure from

Jaafa

I can say with absolute certainty, that if I was on my own, in a situation like that, not as a cop or anything, and had a gun and someone was after me with a metal bar, I would not unload 10 bullets in him

You can say with 80% certainty or maybe even 90%, but until you have been in the same situation as that cop you cannot say with absolute certainty, to do so would be naive.

Do not underestimate the power of fear, anger and panic, cops feel them too I'd imagine.

And don't judge so quickly either, for all you know that same cop may have been in a similar situation before, were he or someone he knows got hurt as a result of his, to quote a certain show 'half measures'. This time maybe he didn't want to take that risk.

There is simply no scenario where this was reasonable force, and it concerns me that people think for a second that this could be acceptable. If he was carrying a gun, shoot him 20 times for all I care, but the bottom line is that no one's life was in danger. It's as simple as that.

Let me send a drugged up loon at at you armed with a metal bar that has sharpened ends on it and lets see if you feel your life is in danger. Better yet lets send him at one of your mates, see how you feel in that case.

Ten cops should be capable of arresting a man holding a pipe without the need to put 10 bullet holes in him, it's either lazy policing where murder is a tactic of control, or a completely incompetent force operating in an extremest country so fu*king nuts, that they think this is ok....like Saudi Arabia with beheadings, with locals just as blind to how pre-historic and medievil their country is. And these are the guys with the nukes....

Now your just rambling, anyone on this forum who knows me, is aware that I never miss an opportunity to criticize Americas failings, this however, is not one of them.

Bruthal

Overheal wrote: »

The man, later, died in hospital.

Just in case anybody was in any doubts that one bullet is enough? Obviously I'm inferring here that even after being recipient of 10 rounds, the suspect was still alive at the scene, and arrived at the hospital before giving up the ghost.

That does not mean much really. A person will still show signs of life after half their head is blown off, or if shot 20 times in the body, even though they would then be no threat, and survival is not really possible.


Still alive in this case likely meant there were life signs present, but little else.

It actually looks possible that the other cop fired the second set of 5 shots.

foggy_lad

Stereomaniac wrote: »

Wow. So that Uncle Jimbo thing of "Look out, it's comin straight for us!" really does exist in the U.S. There were so many of them there, could they not just have jumped on the guy?

It was good of the "cops" to handcuff the dangerous guy after shooting him 10 times at close range, just in case he got up from his pool of blood and tried to hit one of them or splatter some blood on them.

Land of the pussy police and home of the brave as long as they got their gun! If they had balls at all they would have jumped him and easily disarmed him but that would have been too dangerous for them! they should all take up knitting as a career.

Shield

I see them offering the guy no first aid whatsoever. Once the threat has been removed, the onus is on the police (at least over here it is, I believe it is there too) to provide instant first aid to the person who they've just shot. They certainly don't just handcuff him and leave him there in a positionally asphyxiating position, bleeding from where he has been shot.

While this isn't murder, from what I can see, the police most definitely caused this man's death and should be prosecuted not for shooting, but for failing to provide potentially live-saving aftercare.