Swimming for Tri

Oryx

Notwitch wrote: »

I tried swimming with a band around my ankles for the first time yesterday.

Only reason I wasn't vertical by the end of the first length was because the pool was so shallow. Lifeguards were getting itchy in their seats.

I was certainly more aware of my body position afterwards. So for me it's very tough but it seems to be both a strength and body position workout.

I tried a drag ring a few weeks ago. I struggled with it, my stroke went to pot, and my feet dragged the pool floor. In the deep end I would probably drown. I thought it was useless for my level of ability.

Worst thing is I had to go buy one for club sessions.

shotgunmcos

Interesting topic actually.

Do you naturally float? My sister swims once in a blue moon but can easily lie on her back on float away. Despite all my swimming my legs sink no matter what body poition I contort myself into. or how much I hold my breath or relax....

Got me wondering if your legs are naturally just prone to sinking or floating?
Is it to do with the lean weight of your leg?

Oryx

My legs sink, and I have had to work hard to get correct body position. I cant swim drills with feet crossed, for instance, I end up dragging the floor. Coach was a bit disinterested when I said the drag ring was an issue, just said Id have to work on it. HTFU yet again.

BTH

shotgunmcos wrote: »

Interesting topic actually.

Do you naturally float? My sister swims once in a blue moon but can easily lie on her back on float away. Despite all my swimming my legs sink no matter what body poition I contort myself into. or how much I hold my breath or relax....

Got me wondering if your legs are naturally just prone to sinking or floating?
Is it to do with the lean weight of your leg?

I'm not sure, but I've had a swim coach saying he was going to get a collection going to buy me arse implants so that I might float. He has also suggested McDonalds for lunch everyday.

RedB

My chunky legs seem to naturally sink. I had to use three floats during sculling drills recently .
My OW swims seem to be easier due to wetsuit buoyancy

DaveR1

Coming from my Physics background - If something is more dense than water it sinks, less dense it floats. Its not the weight that matter its the density -
Mass divided by Volume

Densities:
Water = 1
Bone = 1.5
Muscle = 1.06
Fat = 0.91

From these results, it is clear that the more muscle and bone your legs have, the higher your leg density is, the more they will sink. i.e Chunky legs are bad!!
Legs with less muscle and more fat will float as the density will be close to 1.
See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZS5zpQqbalw&list=PLCAB44595BDD39B39&index=18&feature=plpp_video
Skip to 1.30!!!

As for legs sinking during drills this is the reason the pull bouy was invented! My legs sink and for all drills with legs tied together etc I use the pull bouy. Still makes you work the arms and focus on body position but allows the legs to stay afloat and streamline.

Nwm2

Now, i know nothing about swimming. But this guy does:

http://joelfilliol.blogspot.com/2012/01/most-popular-post-on-this-blog-is-is.html?spref=tw

The Top 20 Rules for Faster Triathlon Swimming

1. Conditioning trumps drills. Technique matters, but the way most athletes try to improve technique doesn't work. Get fitter, and your ability to hold good technique improves. It takes a lot of work to develop aerobic conditioning in your upper body. If you think you are already swimming a lot but are not improving, swim more and keep at it. There are no shortcuts.

2. Traditional drills don't work. The type of drills and the way that most triathletes do them don't actually have any material effect on swimming technique.

3. Swim more often. Frequency is the best way to improve your swimming. Also see rule #4

4. Do longer main sets. You can't expect to swim fast and be fresh on the bike if you rarely do main sets with the same or higher volume and pace than you expect in the race. For short course these should be at least 2km, for IM 4km, or more. And that looks like 20-50x100, not many short broken sets adding up to 2-5km.

5. Don't over think it. Don't under think it. Be engaged with what you are doing in the water, and use tools to help get a better feel for the water. But don't over think every stroke, and suffer from paralysis by analysis. Swimming fast is about rhythm and flow, when good technique becomes automatic.

6. Increased swim fitness translates to the bike and run. Being able to swim harder, starting the bike both fresher and with faster riders is how that works.

7. Deep swim fitness allows you to swim on the rivet. See rule #6. Most triathletes don't know how to really swim hard for the duration.

8. Include some quality in every swim. If you are swimming less than 5x per week, having easy swims is a waste of time. Always include quality, from band, to paddles, to sprints, in every swim.

9. Don't count strokes. See rule #2. The objective is to get faster, not take fewer strokes.

10. Learn now to use your kick but don't spend a lot of time with kick sets. Kicking is about stroke control and body position, not propulsion for triathlon. Kick fitness doesn't matter.

11. Use a band frequently. The best swimming drill there is. Do short reps with lots of rest at first. Both propulsion and body position will improve.

12. Use paddles with awareness of engaging lats. Paddles are primarily a technical tool to take more strokes with better mechanics, the result of which is learning how to use your prime swimming movers: your lats.

13. Keep head low on breathing and in open water. Head down, feet up. It's a common body position error.

14. Do many short repetitions for stroke quality. It takes fitness to swim with good technique for long durations. Start shorter, and swim faster. 50x50 works wonders. Don't have time to do a 2500m main set? Drop the warm up and warm down.

15. Learn to swim with a higher stroke rate. This takes conditioning. It will pay off on race day, and particularly anytime swimming in a group and in rough conditions.

16. If you need to write your swim session down on the white board or paper, it's too complicated. Keep it simple.

17. Find a good masters programme. Long main sets is a good sign. Swim with others to challenge yourself. Good programmes are the exception rather than the norm, unfortunately.

18. Don't use swim tools as a crutch. Paddles and bull buoys are tools with specific uses. Don't reach for them out of simple laziness, because the set is hard.

19. Do use swim tools when you are very fatigued, and will otherwise swim with poor quality. See Rule #18.

20. Dry land and gym can help swimming for some via improved neuromuscular recruitment. Use body weight and tubing not machines.

Bonus: Love swimming if you want to get faster. Embrace the process of getting faster in the water. Chlorine sweat is a good thing.

Follow the rules above to swim faster, and ultimately to be a faster triathlete. Enjoy.

DaveR1

I like Rule 9!!!

shotgunmcos

DaveR1 wrote: »

I like Rule 9!!!

Its fine for sprints


So why do coaches advocate efficiency with a lower stroke rate? better economy, lower heart rate, more power in the water?

Cheers for the lab answer on sinking legs BTW, I'll hold off on giving it to my sister though

eoglyn

I have got to make me one of those bands - sounds really tough

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

Notwitch wrote: »

I tried swimming with a band around my ankles for the first time yesterday.

Only reason I wasn't vertical by the end of the first length was because the pool was so shallow. Lifeguards were getting itchy in their seats.

I was certainly more aware of my body position afterwards. So for me it's very tough but it seems to be both a strength and body position workout.

I fvking cringe when the coach sets me band work in the pool, its bloody tough going trying not to let the legs sink to the bottom.

Nwm2

shotgunmcos wrote: »

Its fine for sprints


So why do coaches advocate efficiency with a lower stroke rate? better economy, lower heart rate, more power in the water?

Some coaches do, and there may be a difference between racing for Olympics and Ironman, but if you look at the top pro and AG athletes the stroke rate is very high (especially in Olympic distance), and the top coaches of those top athletes are coaching that way.

Again, I am an awful swimmer so certainly everything I say can be discounted, but here is the opinion on one of the very best coaches (Darren Smith) where I have highlighted some relevant statements, but the whole thing is worth a read.

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]I've had the pleasure to help some good number of athletes improve their swims very significantly, incl barb riveros, nordo, kate roberts, lauren campbell and others making WCS first packs for the first time.
My latest projects are Anne Haug (GER trying to make London) and Bart Aernouts (2010 world du champ who races 70.3 now) and like the others they are investing a LOT of effort, mental energy and wet and dry time to the challenge. Mileage about 30kpw, 7-8 sessions/weekly, 2 massage sessions/wk, core and specific muscle work also and after months we make really strong gains, but while we normally need two such off seasons to make the first pack, we normally get there. Sutto and I are miles away in methodology, but I would suggest that I now am getting close to his level of impact, and I'll give some insight into our approach and common errors:
We make great gains with multiple swims a day (every second day), broken into a skill based session and then fitness based session within the daily sequence only long enough to keep skills (under fitness load) at an acceptible level. We spend 'dry' time to improve ROM (with our team rehab guy) and specific strength; plus in every single case i have had to undo bad skills or very poor previous coaching, even from olympic medalist level swim coaches (eg my latest projects):
What i normally get is someone who:
1. pulls the water and has no idea about leavering the body past the forearm - guys, there is no such thing as pulling with your hand vis rowing like, rather think kayaking where the core is working lots.
2. kicks a 6 beat which is out of timing with their hips and they also kick from the knee creating more drag at the knee and via the bubbles produced at the foot than it is worth -guys we teach correct kick action (often 2 beat) that help the action of hips coordinate with the upper body and loosen the bits that create drag. also we drop the feet back in the water rather than above it and have people kick from the hip
3. range of motion is 30% or more below par and this causes overreaching the centreline, poor alignment but the bottomline is both propulsion and drag is compromised - athletes act bewildered when we finally get enough range to let them function properly
4. they know little of how to sort out body position - why drag an anchor when you don't need to?
5. they spend way too much time gliding and worrying about s shape pulls and what 'feel' they have in their hands - forget it guys there are so many bubbles when swimming in a pack the front end has no 'feel' even if you could
6. they are all weak - mid to back end of the stroke is the place to get the gains, so become strong
6. lastly they freak out in pack in the OW and cannot swim straight to save their life - we teach them to swim in the open water and this week we did two sessions in the open water over an hour each with specific longer and short duration efforts in packs with feedback from a coach sitting in a kayak so that tells you have much we rank this activity

But you will never hear me say 'strokes per length', we don't do any total Immersion stuff, do not rush no matter what, and I haven't used a stop watch in the first 2 months of this 2012 prep yet. There is a time and a place for everything.
For age groupers I have some thoughts - invest in ROM, build specific swim based strength, don't get fancy (look up cricket bowling and use that as a stroke recovery action), and mix up the workouts with absolutely no slow FS swimming in the warm down (get rid of the fluff), and forget min strokes per length.
Hope this has helped,
Daz [/FONT][/FONT]

This comes from an outstanding Slowtwitch thread:


http://forum.slowtwitch.com/cgi-bin/gforum.cgi?post=3702958#3702958

pgibbo

Where did you pull that from Nwm2?

Nwm2

pgibbo wrote: »

Where did you pull that from Nwm2?

Sorry - edited with source now.

interested

re: top 20 rules

lots of familiar stuff in here - bit I liked the best and one of the most applicable tips was 'There are no shortcuts.' Sadly, so true.

This bit 'Learn to swim with a higher stroke rate. This takes conditioning. It will pay off on race day, and particularly anytime swimming in a group and in rough conditions. ' is of interest I reckon. Granted the article is a guiding list of tips ... but, that said, swimming with a high stroke rate in rough conditions in my opinion is often not the best approach.

Staying calm, maintaining form, maintaining a good kick, ensuring you're swimming the shortest line to the target turn / finish (and taking advantage of any draft of leading swimmers) would be a lot higher on my priority list in heavy water than increasing my stroke rate. In certain conditions Ive found it more effective to slow down my stroke rate and focus on timing efforts between waves and keeping my kick going - but I'd doubt any triathlon swim would go ahead when the conditions are similar.

And my own throw away comment - if you increase your stroke rate in the pool or sea just make sure you don't shorten the length of your arm pull under the water

catweazle

Most of ye are probably signed up for swim smooth newsletters but it got me through today when the head was telling me to quit while I was ahead!

Getting In Some Weekly Discomfort

You're swimming a set of 8x 200m and you are on number three. Your heart rate is high and your breathing deep, and you're feeling some heaviness and burn from your muscles as they resist the effort. There's still another five reps to go, perhaps 15 or 20 minutes of hard work ahead of you, which right now seems like an eternity.

What are your thought process in this situation? Are you longing to stop? Thinking of a good excuse to shorten the set? Or perhaps you avoid training sets completely knowing they are uncomfortable?

This 'discomfort time' is the critical period where your body's systems are challenged so that after the session they adapt and you gain fitness. Without reaching this point you won't gain the fitness improvements you are looking for. So this 'discomfort time' is not just unavoidable when fitness training, it should be something you are actively seeking out.

The psychology here is very important, don't think: "God, this is really tough."

Instead, replace that thought with: "OK, this is what it is all about. Swim it out, one stroke and one lap at a time."

Embrace the discomfort as a place you want to be and you will have fundamentally changed your thinking. From there on training sets start to feel much easier.

Staying In The Moment

It's a sporting cliché to tell someone to 'stay in the moment' but within a challenging fitness set it's absolutely critical that you do. Never think ahead but simply focus on your stroke movements and your breathing rhythm as the effort becomes challenging. It can be a good idea to monitor your technique but only ever think about one thing and keep it very simple, for instance you might choose to focus on:

- Exhaling smoothly into the water

- Lightly tapping your big toes together as they pass - 'tap tap tap'

- Keeping one goggle in the water and one out when you breathe

- Pressing the water backwards, not downwards

It's essential you keep these thoughts very simple as most of your focus will be required to maintain your effort and pace things out well.

Make Sure You Are Distance Training, Not Sprint Training

If you've been following Swim Smooth for a while you will know we are big fans of CSS / threshold training. This involves sustaining a strong pace for longer periods with short recoveries and is quite distinct from sprint training which is attacked at a faster pace but with longer recovery periods.

Swimming at this pace does not feel like sprint training and the effort progressively builds over the set while holding the same pace. Initially it may feel around 6 out of 10 for effort but progressively builds up to a 9 out of 10 by the end of the set. Pacing these sets well is essential (with the same pace for each repetition) even if you have to start a little slower, that way you will get the right fitness gains and can maintain your stroke technique throughout.

CSS / threshold pace targets the energy systems critical to distance swimming performance so that they adapt and improve. Sports scientists call this training principle 'specificity' and it really works - experience some consistent weekly discomfort in your CSS sets and your swimming will come on leaps and bounds. It could be just what you are lacking with your swimming.

Swim Smooth!