Xbox 720 is Coming. November 2013

ibFoxer

chin_grin wrote: »

Rumour mill is in full swing.

http://kotaku.com/5879202/sources-the-next-xbox-will-play-blu+ray-may-not-play-used-games-and-will-introduce-kinect-2

Will play blu ray?? Can't see this EVER happening. Of course i won't be bitterly disappointed if i'm wrong

Just as an aside, does anyone know if the current HD-DVD player will allow playback of CBHD or is it too different from HD-DVD to play?

Magill

I think that 600dollars is way off the mark tbh, the 360 launched at $300 for the core model fs !

I'd expect more of the same, if not slightly cheaper if the rumours on the spec's are true.

ScumLord

foxerv1 wrote: »

Will play blu ray?? Can't see this EVER happening.

Why not? blue ray players are as cheap as DVD now. Surely they'll need the added room, DVDs are at their limit, many PC games now come on two disks.

Magill

I think hes doubtful because of sonys ties to the format, im not sure exactly what patents sony has, but i think they get a small percent of every disk sold.

gizmo

Enderman wrote: »

Would you mind explaining exactly why?

Sure. As I said in my previous reply to you, just because the proposed card to be included in the 720 is based on the 6670 card, does not mean the feature set will be anything like it. The Xenos featured architectural differences which included not only features not seen until later familes of GPUs (a Unified Shader Architecture) but also ones which haven't been included in desktop cards yet at all, the eDRAM for instance.

In the first instance, this allowed developers far great flexibility when writing both pixel and vertex shaders and allowed them to concentrate on different areas of rendering depending on the type of game. The Digital Foundry Face-Off between Ninja Gaiden 2 on the 360 and Sigma 2 on the PS3 gave an interesting and indeed practical insight into the differences this can make.

In terms of the inclusion of eDRAM, this has an even greater effect on the preformance profile of the card since the frame buffer used for the final display image is constructed in an entirely different manner to how it is done on a desktop part. For instance, you often hear of how developers can have "free" AA because of how it's used, this is unlike a desktop part which would incur a pretty hefty preformance penalty when such full screen effects are used.

So, what bearing does this have on the benchmarks? Well it all depends on whether the GPU in the 720 is a similar type of frankencard like the Xenos but it's safe to say that MS wouldn't just be taking an off the shelf part and chucking it in without adapting it to the rest of the architecture in the console. And so, because we don't know what kind of changes will be made, it's pointless to use such benchmarks in order to gauge any kind of preformance profile.

marco_polo

Magill wrote: »

I think hes doubtful because of sonys ties to the format, im not sure exactly what patents sony has, but i think they get a small percent of every disk sold.

Not only that but Sony are also part of the OneBlue Consortium, to whom you have to pay something like $9.00 in royalties for each Bluray playback device. So they would be indirectly getting a cut of every single Xbox sold.

Overheal

Not to mention I was comparing specs, not benchmarks. A Memory clock speed is not a benchmark. A transistor count is not a benchmark. As for actual benchmarks I doubt Xenos has run a 3dmark bench. And as Gizmo says any numbers you did get out of it would probably be misleading.

Stevo105

We've got a good news and a bad news. The good news first: Microsoft will finally embrace the capacious Blu-ray disc format as its media of choice with its next-generation Xbox console. A double-layer Blu-ray disc provides 50 GB of space, letting developers load higher-resolution elements (such as textures), and more importantly, load entire games into a single disc. The 8 GB DVD9 used with Xbox 360 is posing limitations with some titles, forcing publishers to ship games in multiple discs. The new console should also double up as a nice Blu-ray home-video player, complete with multi-channel lossless audio and 1080p playback.

Now on to the bad news: Remember the good old days when you could share your game cartridges and discs with your friends, or resell them? Those are about to be numbered, at least in the case of the Xbox platform. Microsoft is designing its next-generation Xbox console in a way that restricts people from playing "used" games. We would imagine Microsoft doing this by binding each purchased game's activation to a Xbox Live account à la Steam, Origin, and G4WL. This is terrible news to services such as GameStop, which deal in used games and consoles.

http://www.techpowerup.com/forums/showthread.php?t=159420

Retr0gamer

Not sure how that would work though, what if you keep your console offline? how could you bind the game to your console. It sounds like a logistics nightmare.

You've also then got the rental and retail stores not being very happy and they have the power not to advertise the console and sink it, just look at the PSP Go.

I really hope it isn't true but if it is I hope it violates all kinds of consumer and free trade laws and they get nailed in an American class action.

gizmo

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Not sure how that would work though, what if you keep your console offline? how could you bind the game to your console. It sounds like a logistics nightmare.

You've also then got the rental and retail stores not being very happy and they have the power not to advertise the console and sink it, just look at the PSP Go.

I really hope it isn't true but if it is I hope it violates all kinds of consumer and free trade laws and they get nailed in an American class action.

I'd imagine they'd bind it to the gamertag rather than the console but the online status, or lack thereof, point remains.

With regard to the stores not being happy, well if they all start doing it and let's face it, if MS do it Sony will too, then stores won't have much choice in the matter. I can see Gamestop shouting about it the most though, what with almost 50% of their annual revenue coming from the used games market.

Stevo105

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Not sure how that would work though, what if you keep your console offline?

They could sell you a disc which needs to be finalised/closed by the new console. So you put in the game and it writes to the disc in some way.

Thats just one way of doing it

Retr0gamer

Well I think it's a really ****ty idea. Instead of the industry adapting to the second hand market they are making things worse for consumers.

gizmo

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Well I think it's a really ****ty idea. Instead of the industry adapting to the second hand market they are making things worse for consumers.

Well one could argue they are adapting to the second hand market with the likes of Online Passes, Season Passes/DLC to make you hold onto the game for longer, pre-order incentives and new purchase incentives in general.

Retr0gamer

Yes and as much as I don't like them they are a far better alternative to killing the second hand market.

Stevo105

Sony/Microsoft won't want to lose out to second hand sales next gen. If you can cut out second hand sales completely, like Steam/Origin on the PC. Then people will pay full price. since they know thats the only way to have the game. Just like smokers, you wont stop because the price is now higher

Retr0gamer

I'm also worried about going download only. Firstly it means games can become unavailable when contracts run out, just look at Outrun 2. Also the fact that the platform holders maintain a monolpoly on the stores. This isn't a problem on PC due to the competing services. On XBL and PSN the prices of games are ridiculously high, even for indie games with no discounts being introduced and some really terrible sales. You end up with stuff like Halo Reach which is still about 70 euros from the store.

I suppose we'll find out in May.

Helix

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Well I think it's a really ****ty idea. Instead of the industry adapting to the second hand market they are making things worse for consumers.

tbh its the likes of gamestop at fault here for taking the absolute piss with the second hand side of things

ScumLord

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Also the fact that the platform holders maintain a monolpoly on the stores. This isn't a problem on PC due to the competing services.

Steam takes the pee pee on a lot of their new releases being sometimes a good €10 more expensive than a shop in the west of Ireland. The one problem I would have with these direct from the makers systems is rather than getting the games cheaper the company is taking advantage. Other than that it's a pretty good service despite me having absolutely no luck with their support crew.

Helix

Retr0gamer wrote: »

On XBL and PSN the prices of games are ridiculously high,

not sure what it's like over there, but the psn prices over here are spot on for the most part

cheaper than in store prices

Helix

ScumLord wrote: »

Steam takes the pee pee on a lot of their new releases being sometimes a good €10 more expensive than a shop in the west of Ireland.

the reason for those prices is because stores have told publishers unless the prices are cheaper in stores than on digital distribution networks, they won't stock their products

however, that's not something that's going to last forever. very soon you'll see publishers telling the stores that they dont need them any more, and gamestops greed will have them sunk by the mid way point of the decade

LeinsterDub

Isn't the suppose to be about the next xbox? Surely there is a thread for all the "xb0x0rz are the ghay and PC's R l/-\m0rz" else where else?

Retr0gamer

PSN does seem to be a lot better, I've noticed that some game prices are adjusted for currency or at least an attempt has been made. Also game prices do drop after a while although I can still normally find boxed copies for much cheaper.

I'm pretty sure the high prices of download titles are due to deals that steam has with retrailers that they can't beat the retail price otherwise they won't carry steamworks games.

Retr0gamer

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Isn't the suppose to be about the next xbox? Surely there is a thread for all the "xb0x0rz are the ghay and PC's R l/-\m0rz" else where else?

So far the discussion hasn't been about this at all, but if you want it to degenerate into that by posting comments like this to try and start a flameware then you won't be posting here for much longer.

Helix

Retr0gamer wrote: »

PSN does seem to be a lot better, I've noticed that some game prices are adjusted for currency or at least an attempt has been made. Also game prices do drop after a while although I can still normally find boxed copies for much cheaper.

i assume MS's switch from MSP to actual real money will drop the cost of XBLA titles soon

Retr0gamer wrote: »

I'm pretty sure the high prices of download titles are due to deals that steam has with retrailers that they can't beat the retail price otherwise they won't carry steamworks games.

same, im 99.99% sure this is the case, except it goes beyond it simply being steamworks games, it's all the publishers games afaik

Myrddin

Stevo105 wrote: »

They could sell you a disc which needs to be finalised/closed by the new console. So you put in the game and it writes to the disc in some way.

Thats just one way of doing it

Bad idea. An 'unfinalised disc' has the potential for hackers to place code on it. Also, the console would have to digitally sign the newly finalised disc, meaning the private signing keys would have to be stored on the console somewhere. Very bad if it ever got exploited.

It's still only a rumour for now, who knows what may happen

ScumLord

Helix wrote: »

the reason for those prices is because stores have told publishers unless the prices are cheaper in stores than on digital distribution networks, they won't stock their products

You'd like to think that but if that bar of having a lot of suppliers for games disappear and your getting it direct and only from the maker they could essentially charge whatever they like. I wouldn't be surprised if a monopoly situation develops where the game companies give themselves extra increases as time passes with no opportunity of competition to slow them down.

Overheal

If they want to do that with the DRM, I want the games to be cheaper.

After all if it stamps out the used game market, they should be able to sell more units, and at that lovely reduced price point I've been talking about for years. The one where more people are buying your game, at a lower price, and you're magically still making more revenue. Well really not magic, it's more like Algebra.

gizmo

Overheal wrote: »

If they want to do that with the DRM, I want the games to be cheaper.

After all if it stamps out the used game market, they should be able to sell more units, and at that lovely reduced price point I've been talking about for years. The one where more people are buying your game, at a lower price, and you're magically still making more revenue. Well really not magic, it's more like Algebra.

Now Overheal, we've discussed this before. While the prices of games may, in some people's eyes, be too high at launch they've shown to fall considerably after a couple of weeks on the shelves. At this price, bar the odd exception, there hasn't been a substantial increase in sales figures at retail. This completely disproves the notion that a drop in price somehow magically lead to more units being sold. And no, Steam sales do not count. 66-75% off does not count as a price reduction in this context. :pac:

What could happen without used sales games taking a chunk out of the revenues is more games start making a (better) profit which may encourage publishers to take more risks with new IP so instead of say, another annual update to Call of Duty or iteration of the Tom Clancy series, we get a new Battlezone and Beyond Good & Evil 2.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

gizmo wrote: »

What could happen without used sales games taking a chunk out of the revenues is more games start making a (better) profit which may encourage publishers to take more risks with new IP so instead of say, another annual update to Call of Duty or iteration of the Tom Clancy series, we get a new Battlezone and Beyond Good & Evil 2.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Kiith

I'd actually kill someone for a new Battlezone.

Seriously :cool: