republican sinn Fein

harry Bailey esq

i am a lifelong republican,but i just can't see the point of rsf.in my mind a political party is there to make its supporters heard,yet rsf won't take a dail seat.its unlikely they could even field a candidate that would win a seat but if they ever managed to pull it off they Will boycott the seat.so,i ask what is the point of having the party to begin with?

Terrontress

harry Bailey esq wrote: »

i am a lifelong republican,but i just can't see the point of rsf.in my mind a political party is there to make its supporters heard,yet rsf won't take a dail seat.its unlikely they could even field a candidate that would win a seat but if they ever managed to pull it off they Will boycott the seat.so,i ask what is the point of having the party to begin with?

As a 'lifelong republican' do you wonder what the point of Sinn Fein standing for Westminster is?

KeithAFC

RSF if anything are more principled than Sinn Fein and actually have Republican ideals. Most Republicans if they know their history will think Dáil Éireann is illegitimate and the state is illegitimate.

Sinn Fein will follow the money. Martin Mcguinness didn't recognise the ROI and then he wanted to be the president of the same country he didn't recognise. I am delighted Sinn Fein are working in the Northern Ireland assembly. The more we keep them in that position, the more they will not want a United Ireland because they are a fringe party and will not do well in a United Ireland in the polls.

Hannibal

Terrontress wrote: »

As a 'lifelong republican' do you wonder what the point of Sinn Fein standing for Westminster is?

Sinn Fein don't take their seat in Westminster because of the issue of having pledge an oath of allegiance to a foreign monarch.

KeithAFC wrote: »

RSF if anything are more principled than Sinn Fein and actually have Republican ideals. Most Republicans if they know their history will think Dáil Éireann is illegitimate and the state is illegitimate.

Sinn Fein will follow the money. Martin Mcguinness didn't recognise the ROI and then he wanted to be the president of the same country he didn't recognise. I am delighted Sinn Fein are working in the Northern Ireland assembly. The more we keep them in that position, the more they will not want a United Ireland because they are a fringe party and will not do well in a United Ireland in the polls.

Dáil Éireann was formed illegiitimately yes but after 90 years of democratic voting it would be mad to consider it illegitimate. Sinn Féin didn't follow the money they followed the times and were luckily for everyone on the island able to help convince the IRA also do likewise.

They are not a fringe party, SF are the 4th biggest party in Ireland and the 2nd biggest in the north.

It's good to see the you are already thinking of a United Ireland Keith.

Terrontress

Dotsey wrote: »

Terrontress wrote: »

As a 'lifelong republican' do you wonder what the point of Sinn Fein standing for Westminster is?

Sinn Fein don't take their seat in Westminster because of the issue of having pledge an oath of allegiance to a foreign monarch.

Regardless of the reason, the OP asked what the point of rsf is due to their not taking seats up and I asked if he also queries SF's motivation for not taking seats for which they have campaigned. Do you believe SF's reasons to be legitimate and RSF's not?

They are not a fringe party, SF are the 4th biggest party in
Ireland and the 2nd biggest in the north.

Or possibly the fourth and second best at getting people to vote for them. If we had mandatory voting north and south of the border, Sinn Fein would be slaughtered at the polls.

Hannibal

Terrontress wrote: »

Regardless of the reason, the OP asked what the point of rsf is due to their not taking seats up and I asked if he also queries SF's motivation for not taking seats for which they have campaigned. Do you believe SF's reasons to be legitimate and RSF's not?




Or possibly the fourth and second best at getting people to vote for them. If we had mandatory voting north and south of the border, Sinn Fein would be slaughtered at the polls.

I doubt they would be slaughtered, a large vote share up north and a growing vote share down here indicated they wouldn't be slaughtered.

The difference with RSF is that SF have actually went before the people and into the Dail, Seanad and councils up and down the country so they have a mandate. SF campaign for seats in Westminster to represent their constituents and they get voted back in which indicates their voters are happy with them. How could Irish republicans give an oath to a foreign monarch?

KeithAFC

Dotsey wrote: »

Sinn Fein don't take their seat in Westminster because of the issue of having pledge an oath of allegiance to a foreign monarch.


Dáil Éireann was formed illegiitimately yes but after 90 years of democratic voting it would be mad to consider it illegitimate. Sinn Féin didn't follow the money they followed the times and were luckily for everyone on the island able to help convince the IRA also do likewise.

They are not a fringe party, SF are the 4th biggest party in Ireland and the 2nd biggest in the north.

It's good to see the you are already thinking of a United Ireland Keith.

It doesn't matter to these people if it 90 years or 800 years. The point is they don't even recognise the democratic wishes of the people of the Republic of Ireland.

No one gets voted up here based on every day policies. In a normal society they would really struggle.

Terrontress

My opinion is that, north and south, people are fairly disillusioned with the political process and have responded by staying away.

Sinn Fein supporters tend to be fairly radical with their politics, what with all the murder and maiming, and tend to be less apathetic in terms of voting. It's almost like supporting a football team with the cheering and grafitti etc. A murderous football team.

I'll bet my bottom dollar that SF have most of their potential vote mobilised already. Force people to vote and the less radical parties' votes will increase while SF will stay the same.

Pacifist Pigeon

I hope that any party that doesn't reject the notion of the use of violence in a democracy as a form of political expression does not get into government.

Stripey Cat

RSF aren't even registered as a political party are they? That's staunch.

Hannibal

KeithAFC wrote: »

It doesn't matter to these people if it 90 years or 800 years. The point is they don't even recognise the democratic wishes of the people of Ireland.

No one gets voted up here based on every day policies. In a normal society they would really struggle.

In the first and second Dáil elections Sinn Féin quite clearly recognised the wishes of the Irish people, the issue was the second Dáil was the last democratically elected government of a 32 county Ireland not the subsequent partitioned elections.

In the 800 years you mentioned.. how often did the British recognise the wishes of the people of Ireland?

Terrontress wrote: »

My opinion is that, north and south, people are fairly disillusioned with the political process and have responded by staying away.

Sinn Fein supporters tend to be fairly radical with their politics, what with all the murder and maiming, and tend to be less apathetic in terms of voting. It's almost like supporting a football team with the cheering and grafitti etc. A murderous football team.

I'll bet my bottom dollar that SF have most of their potential vote mobilised already. Force people to vote and the less radical parties' votes will increase while SF will stay the same.

Pretty much nonsense, and I'll bet you will lose your bottom dollar!

Hannibal

Stripey Cat wrote: »

RSF aren't even registered as a political party are they? That's staunch.

they are registered they have one member elected to Galway county council he represents Conamara

Terrontress

Dotsey wrote: »

KeithAFC wrote: »

It doesn't matter to these people if it 90 years or 800 years. The point is they don't even recognise the democratic wishes of the people of Ireland.

No one gets voted up here based on every day policies. In a normal society they would really struggle.

In the first and second Dáil elections Sinn Féin quite clearly recognised the wishes of the Irish people, the issue was the second Dáil was the last democratically elected government of a 32 county Ireland not the subsequent partitioned elections.

In the 800 years you mentioned.. how often did the British recognise the wishes of the people of Ireland?

Terrontress wrote: »

My opinion is that, north and south, people are fairly disillusioned with the political process and have responded by staying away.

Sinn Fein supporters tend to be fairly radical with their politics, what with all the murder and maiming, and tend to be less apathetic in terms of voting. It's almost like supporting a football team with the cheering and grafitti etc. A murderous football team.

I'll bet my bottom dollar that SF have most of their potential vote mobilised already. Force people to vote and the less radical parties' votes will increase while SF will stay the same.

Pretty much nonsense, and I'll bet you will lose your bottom dollar!

Wonderful reasoning there Dotsey! You hit me with a comeback which cannot be argued with.

Any other burning issues which you wish to apply the same methods to?

Stripey Cat

Dotsey wrote: »

they are registered they have one member elected to Galway county council he represents Conamara

Really? Thanks, I didn't know that.

How did they register if they don't recognise the state? Who did they register with?

Benny_Cake

Stripey Cat wrote: »

Dotsey wrote: »

they are registered they have one member elected to Galway county council he represents Conamara

Really? Thanks, I didn't know that.

How did they register if they don't recognise the state? Who did they register with?

I could be wrong but I think their candidates appear on the ballot paper as independents.

As I understand it, their point of view is that the last legitimate election in Irish history was the election of 1921. They didn't recognise the Irish Free State and in the 30s the surviving hardline members of the 2nd Dail declared the IRA army council to be the government of the Irish Republic. In 1969 Tom Maguire, the last surviving member of the 2nd Dail declared the Provisionals to be the legitimate government after the split with the Official IRA and he later anointed the Continuity IRA in 1986.

All of which will explain why they haven't had much success, although not why Tom Maguire enjoyed such remarkable health and longevity.

Stripey Cat

This is fascinating. So they believe that the Continuity IRA, of whom we don't hear nearly enough, are the true government of this Ireland?

Gregor Samsa

Benny_Cake wrote: »

As I understand it, their point of view is that the last legitimate election in Irish history was the election of 1921. They didn't recognise the Irish Free State and in the 30s the surviving hardline members of the 2nd Dail declared the IRA army council to be the government of the Irish Republic. In 1969 Tom Maguire, the last surviving member of the 2nd Dail declared the Provisionals to be the legitimate government after the split with the Official IRA and he later anointed the Continuity IRA in 1986.

Having Governmental legitimacy conferred on unelected people by a single person, with their authority solely based on their success in a single election (91 years ago) is hardly upholding the tenets of Republicanism (in the broad sense). In fact, it sounds almost Monarchist.

Maybe RSF should stand for "Royalist Sinn Féin"?

Dubhlinner

Dotsey wrote:

Sinn Fein don't take their seat in Westminster because of the issue of having pledge an oath of allegiance to a foreign monarch.

Part of it - but the main thing is the principle of not sitting in what they consider to be a foreign parliament. Though - watch this space on that count to be honest.

Dotsey wrote:

They are not a fringe party, SF are the 4th biggest party in Ireland and the 2nd biggest in the north.

In Republic of Ireland they are a fringe party - they have less than 10% of the seats. Being the 4th largest party on the island does nothing to change that. in northern ireland they are of course a major party

That may change however - as they are actively trying to become more and more acceptable to the non-radical vote. McGuinness recently heavily implied he's open to meeting the Queen. I saw one ex blanketman (who has stated categorically he is against armed struggle) post on another site that some of McGuinness's comments during the presidential election made Gerry Fitt look like Tom Barry.

If they play their cards right they could be a major force in the republic. Perhaps them and Labour will be the main centre left alternative to centre right fine gael.

next election could be huge for them. Labour will likely take the hit for the next few years of hardship and Fianna Fail actions of the past won't be forgotten.

Their post 1998 persona has all the credentials for taking these votes so long as they get more pearse doherty types. It may mean sacrificing traditional republican votes by doing things like meeting the queen and condemning IRA actions (remember McGuinness called the IRA murderers in a roundabout way during the presidential campaign so its not that unlikely)

On the RSF issue I agree with the sentiments of the poster KeithAFC. They essentially don't see the point in existing whilst recognising either state. I wouldn't be quite as harsh on Provisional Sinn Fein about following the money but there is an element of that. I think that although some want the govt jobs others see it as a means to an end

JustinDee

Terrontress wrote: »

As a 'lifelong republican' do you wonder what the point of Sinn Fein standing for Westminster is?

In a word and hypocritically, occupation.
ie. just to take up a seat in the House thus preventing another from taking it.
Plus of course the perks such as the expenses, apartment etc.

Terrontress

JustinDee wrote: »

Terrontress wrote: »

As a 'lifelong republican' do you wonder what the point of Sinn Fein standing for Westminster is?

In a word and hypocritically, occupation.
ie. just to take up a seat in the House thus preventing another from taking it.
Plus of course the perks such as the expenses, apartment etc.

Unfortunately the op has not re-appeared since post 1 but that might then be the answer to his question as to why rsf contest polls.

Benny_Cake

phutyle wrote: »

Having Governmental legitimacy conferred on unelected people by a single person, with their authority solely based on their success in a single election (91 years ago) is hardly upholding the tenets of Republicanism (in the broad sense). In fact, it sounds almost Monarchist.

Maybe RSF should stand for "Royalist Sinn Féin"?

It's probably closest to the apostolic succession followed by some Christian churches, where a bishop consecrated a bishop and so on, all the way back to the original apostles. It isn't very republican alright!

COYW

Dotsey wrote: »

Sinn Fein don't take their seat in Westminster because of the issue of having pledge an oath of allegiance to a foreign monarch.

They had no problem taking the salary and the perks including an apartment in central London all the same.

the_syco

Dubhlinner wrote: »

Fianna Fail actions of the past won't be forgotten.

After what they did, FF got more than SF. I'd say people will "forget" what FF and look at their past with rose-tinted glasses, and vote for them again.

And SF may shoot themselves in the foot again before the next election.

Stripey Cat

COYW wrote: »

They had no problem taking the salary and the perks including an apartment in central London all the same.

How much salary do SF MPs get?

Dubhlinner

the_syco wrote: »

After what they did, FF got more than SF. I'd say people will "forget" what FF and look at their past with rose-tinted glasses, and vote for them again.

And SF may shoot themselves in the foot again before the next election.

Well you have to take the rest of that post (and indeed sentence) into context. You could well be right - my point is Sinn Fein have to play their cards right. They need to become a valid alternative to the middle and farming classes.

They are attempting this with softening up on the PIRA. now they condemn the killing of Jerry McCabe for example whereas not so long ago they dodged the question. Imagine the notion of a senior Sinn Fein politician calling people traitors for an attack on British soldiers. Imagine Sinn Fein openly supporting Derry to win the UK city of culture award.

If they have Pearse Doherty as leader for the next election and the likes of Adams and Ferris retire it will go toward distancing themselves from the PIRA past and could afford them a large increase in votes. They are also increasingly becoming more centrist which could attract farmers.

They don't want to alienate their hardcore republican voters which is why they can't be too open about all this - these are however becoming more and more irrelevant to Sinn Fein as they increase their middle class vote base.

the_syco

Dubhlinner wrote: »

Well you have to take the rest of that post (and indeed sentence) into context.

Aye, I just took that line so people would know what I'm on about.

Dubhlinner wrote: »

now they condemn the killing of Jerry McCabe for example whereas not so long ago they dodged the question.

Aye, but as for the shoot themselves in the foot: one of their well known members picked up a certain person up who was involved in the shooting from prison, and drove said person home. This is quite silly...

Terrontress

Stripey Cat wrote: »

COYW wrote: »

They had no problem taking the salary and the perks including an apartment in central London all the same.

How much salary do SF MPs get?

No salary from the British Exchequer for Westminster, only for Stormont.

Where their income comes from in relation to Westminster is the higher than average rents paid to associates for services in London.

Stripey Cat

Terrontress wrote: »

No salary from the British Exchequer for Westminster, only for Stormont.

Where their income comes from in relation to Westminster is the higher than average rents paid to associates for services in London.

So they don't get a salary.

What's this about " higher than average rents"? Do you have any figures?

And if they are paying it, how is it income?

Hannibal

COYW wrote: »

They had no problem taking the salary and the perks including an apartment in central London all the same.

They have every right to represent their constituents as best they can, in the last Westminster elections Sinn Fein got more votes than any other party in NI so that's proof that their electorate are fully backing this policy of not entering the chamber is it not?

Sinn Féin: 171,942
DUP: 168,216
SDLP: 110,970
UUP: 102,361

for the record RSF ran in the last assembly elections in the north and ran candidates getting 2,522 votes

Richard

the_syco wrote: »

And SF may shoot themselves in the foot again before the next election.

It wasn't feet that was the problem in the past.

Terrontress

Stripey Cat wrote: »

Terrontress wrote: »

No salary from the British Exchequer for Westminster, only for Stormont.

Where their income comes from in relation to Westminster is the higher than average rents paid to associates for services in London.

So they don't get a salary.

What's this about " higher than average rents"? Do you have any figures?

And if they are paying it, how is it income?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/mps-expenses/5301510/MPs-expenses-Sinn-Fein-claimed-500000-for-second-homes.html is just one but most major newspapers in UK and Ireland reported it.

I did not say that they are paying it. I said that it is being paid.

Now, what would be the motivation for paying more than the going rate? Concern for the plight of landlords? Or what if the landlord were to pay the money back in to SF coffers?

I'm not sure why you are being defensive about this. Most Shinners I speak to seem to think that ripping off the UK Exchequer for the benefit of SF is a good thing.

harry Bailey esq

not been on boards a couple of days.i would be under the impression that sf ran candidates for Westminster to prove the point that the nationalist community can rally and have they're voice heard.Im by no means anti rsf,in fact I've once had a conversation with Mr. o bradaigh,albeit a short one,and found him to be extremely articulate.what puzzles me is why spend money on electoral campaigns if they won't take the seat.also i notice at rsf rallies/protests that the attendees seem barely out of their teens.much too young in my book to remember the dark days of the struggle.

Dubhlinner

Stripey Cat wrote: »

So they don't get a salary.

What's this about " higher than average rents"? Do you have any figures?

And if they are paying it, how is it income?

Google it. Came out during the MP expenses scandal about 2 years ago. Its not even debatable lol.

MPs in the UK get a rent allowance so they can live near parliament.

Abstentionist MPs don't get a salary but for some reason are still allowed to claim these rent allowances. Sinn Fein rented properties in London from some Irish guy and basically the figures were mental. Think they claimed something like half a million which was far more than what would normally be paid for rent on a similar property

Its rather amusing because their voters couldn't care less - after all it was just Sinn Fein taking money from the British taxpayer.

RandomName2

the_syco wrote: »

After what they did, FF got more than SF. I'd say people will "forget" what FF and look at their past with rose-tinted glasses, and vote for them again.

And SF may shoot themselves in the foot again before the next election.

All said, bad economic policy and soft nationalism is better than mad economic policy and whiff of cordite.

Stripey Cat

Terrontress wrote: »

I'm not sure why you are being defensive about this.

Where was I defensive (apart from in your imagination)?

Terrontress

Stripey Cat wrote: »

Terrontress wrote: »

I'm not sure why you are being defensive about this.

Where was I defensive (apart from in your imagination)?

Do you claim to see in to the eye of my mind?

Stripey Cat

Terrontress wrote: »

Do you claim to see in to the eye of my mind?

What do you think?

MayoArsehole

I will support any party that claims to stand for Irish values, Irish people, Irish culture. I am not political but I don't think people should be quick to reject this party for not renouncing violence. How can you deal with people that refuse to recognize or deal with you in your own country? It is sad that any Irishperson ever has to contemplate violence, politically motivated violence that is but in our history our hand has often been forced. It was either that or our subjugation out of this world.

K-9

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