E.V Fast Charging

If I rented an E.V I wouldn't be registered with the esb for fast charging so I wouldn't be able to use them, so why don't they have a system where it scans your credit card or laser or whatever ?

Same if people came from the U.K or I there we couldn't use the fast chargers.

That doesn't make sense does it ?

Anan1

Wouldn't this hypothetical rental car be registered for fast charging?

mickdw

^^

Yes that is what would llkely occur with the cost (when it applies) being billed via the hire company.

There is still the question of what would happen someone who managed to take their EV here on holidays from Uk or whatever. How wouuld they use the charge point?

Anan1

Why is this making me think of mobile phone roaming charges?

Anan1

Anan1 wrote: »

Wouldn't this hypothetical rental car be registered for fast charging?

Never thought of that!

Anan1

Anan1 wrote: »

Why is this making me think of mobile phone roaming charges?

Indeed you could very well be right, in fact I think tourists should be allowed to charge for free, or for less, a little incentive for going green and would also help our tourist industry!

B&B's should also take note and offer charging services and advertise the fact they offer E.V charging!

With the high fuel charges the last few years people are travelling less and I'm sure it effects tourism in Ireland and once E.V's take off, when they become cheaper that is, people will need to charge over night in hotels and B&B's etc.

Del2005

I doubt many people would use an EV for long journeys or tourism.

If they had any sense they'd use the money that they've saved from paying sod all for their local runs, which is what current EVs are really only for, and hire a decent V8 for their hols.

I can't see hire companies purchasing many EVs to rent, are there even any hybrids?, as the costs are too high to get any return on them.

Anan1

Del2005 wrote: »

I doubt many people would use an EV for long journeys or tourism.

If they had any sense they'd use the money that they've saved from paying sod all for their local runs, which is what current EVs are really only for, and hire a decent V8 for their hols.

For now, but that might change fast. Once the range/charging issues are sorted i'd have EV over a V12, never mind a V8. IC is an inherently crude way of propelling a car.

Del2005

Anan1 wrote: »

For now, but that might change fast. Once the range/charging issues are sorted i'd have EV over a V12, never mind a V8. IC is an inherently crude way of propelling a car.

It'll change but not fast. Unless there's a huge break through in battery tech we'll still be burning the fuel in the vehicle for the next decade or more.

The range will improve but the recharge time is the killer and I can't see swapping batteries taking off. Not everyone looks after batteries as there supposed to and I can see a lot of people getting stuck with batteries that read 100% but are fupped when you try and use them.

Del2005

Del2005 wrote: »

It'll change but not fast. Unless there's a huge break through in battery tech we'll still be burning the fuel in the vehicle for the next decade or more.

The range will improve but the recharge time is the killer and I can't see swapping batteries taking off. Not everyone looks after batteries as there supposed to and I can see a lot of people getting stuck with batteries that read 100% but are fupped when you try and use them.

Well Nissan already have 10 min charging, they may or may not have it tested enough for safety, by Gen II leaf in 2014. That's a crap load of energy being sent into the batteries and it's a damn fine achievement!!!

But yes I'd take 10 min to 80% over 300 miles range any day. Why ? well because my daily mileage these days is covered by my electric bicycle 10-12 miles @40mph is perfect and about 10 cent to charge, 8hp peak it's a total buzz. Range limited by my choice of battery, but covers my needs, no range anxiety because I designed it for my needs!

Even if I did drive every day, I wouldn't drive 100 miles nor do 90% of people.

SO why do we want expensive heavy batteries to cover 300 miles when in fact most people drive less than 50 miles a day ?

The Tesla model S will have a 300 mile range option but at greater cost for what? for it to sit there for the odd occasion you need to drive 300 miles ? mad!

If I want to go on holiday around Ireland if I have a range of 70-120 miles in the Leaf, I'd gladly want to stop for a rest so 20 mins to 80% is absolutely no big deal for me. And the deal breaker for me is of course the cost of electricity over petrol or diesel, it's a fraction of the cost!

The 10 min chargers would then be even better for higher mileage drivers, provided of course they have a longer lasting battery that can take such power without loss of capacity.

As for the life of the leaf battery, I wouldn't be too worried because the battery management system will never allow full charge or discharge, very few will drain it every day to empty anyway and their is a 0-80% mode to extent life even more! I doubt people will use the fast charger every day either!

What I find funny though is the E.S.B installing 220 volt trickle chargers on the streets, no one will want to leave their car on the street for hours and hours, you can charge at home at 220 volts, fast dc chargers is the only ones that should be installed for the public or allow 220 volt charging for my electric Bike which they wont!!!

If I go shopping, I don't want to be there for hours waiting for a charge, I want to charge fast!!!

Del2005

Deleted User wrote: »

Well Nissan already have 10 min charging, they may or may not have it tested enough for safety, by Gen II leaf in 2014. That's a crap load of energy being sent into the batteries and it's a damn fine achievement!!!

I was responding to tourists using electric vehicles not commuters, for which they are ideal. I can't see many petrol stations installing quick chargers if it's €10k to install and €1.4k/annum maintance so they'd be waiting more than 20 minutes in most places.

Deleted User wrote: »

well because my daily mileage these days is covered by my electric bicycle 10-12 miles @40mph is perfect and about 10 cent to charge, 8hp peak it's a total buzz. Range limited by my choice of battery, but covers my needs, no range anxiety because I designed it for my needs!

I hope you have tax, insurance and a licence for you electric motorcyle as 40mph isn't a pedal assist. Can't quote from the .pdf linked so pasting from Kenbay Electric Bikes but a Moped can only do 45km/h so at 40mph you'd need an A1 licence.

FAQ

Electric Bikes FAQ’s

Q. What are the main legal requirements in the EU regarding electrically assisted pedal bikes?

A. Within the EU the following points are the main legal requirements of an electrically assisted bicycle:
• The bike (including the battery) must not weigh more than 40KG in total (the heaviest KenBay bike is 23Kg)
• The motor must not have a continuous motor rating of more than 250W (200W in the UK) output
• Power assisted speed must not exceed 25Kmph (15mph)
• The motor must stop when you stop pedalling
• The bike must have fully functioning pedals
• Riders must be 14 years old or more to ride the bike legally on the road

But don't worry as I've seen plenty of people drive past Gardaí on illegal E-bikes and nothing happens.

Anan1

OSI wrote: »

One thing I wonder about Electric cars. What happens when the inevitable comes true and it runs out of juice on the side of the road? You have to tow it to the nearest electricity point?

At least with an IC engine the AA dude can come out with a gallon tank of fuel, and you're off again in 5 minutes. I can't imagine there is any possibility to fit a quick charger in the back of a van, so either you sit on the side of the road for hours to get enough juice to make it the next charge point. Or you get towed.

I think Renault offer complimentary towing. Although you'd need to be simple enough for it to be a regular issue - when was the last time you ran out of petrol?

Del2005

Del2005 wrote: »

I was responding to tourists using electric vehicles not commuters, for which they are ideal. I can't see many petrol stations installing quick chargers if it's €10k to install and €1.4k/annum maintance so they'd be waiting more than 20 minutes in most places.

Well I don't know who installs the fast chargers, is it the esb or the garage ?
They are expensive but the cost is coming down quickly, but will Ireland adopt to the changes as quickly ? for instance when Nissan release the 10 min charging, will the garages or esb be as quick to install the better chargers ?

Del2005 wrote: »

I hope you have tax, insurance and a licence for you electric motorcyle as 40mph isn't a pedal assist. Can't quote from the .pdf linked so pasting from Kenbay Electric Bikes but a Moped can only do 45km/h so at 40mph you'd need an A1 licence.

No tax, insurance, license needed for a bicycle!

That's E.U law, no Irish laws exist yet to enforce it, E.U law is meaningless when it's not enforced, in fact the Guards don't care if I fly past them, They have passed me on the main road while I'm in the shoulder. Why would they bother me?

If more people used them there would be less congestion in towns and cities. Electric bikes like that would be suitable for a lot of people who would never want to drive in the city again, everyone that gets on my bike does not want to get off, even die hard motorbike fans are impressed!

My bike is absolutely nothing like the ken bay bikes with their pathetic legal 250 watts compared to my 6.6kw peak!

People would save a fortune in fuel, it's a lot of fun, can take it on trails etc

They would also go a long way towards Ireland meeting it's Kyoto emissions that will end up costing us a LOT more in carbon tax! It would also reduce the amount of cancer, from toxic emissions!

Del2005 wrote: »

But don't worry as I've seen plenty of people drive past Gardaí on illegal E-bikes and nothing happens.

I'm not in the slightest bit worried because I don't draw unnecessary attention to myself and don't cause a nuisance of myself or annoy other road users!

And the electric bike E.U laws are about to be changed to unlimited power and maybe 30 mph or more because they realise that 250 watts and 15 mph is pathetic and hardly an incentive for people to pay a lot of money for something like a ken bay. They also realise the potential for such bikes!

Everybody asks me to build them one, until I tell them the costs involved, for some reason they tell me they wouldn't pay that money for a bicycle, yeah they think it should be free or something! lol how much do people spend on booze ? exactly, add it up!

650Ginge

Can u post a link to the type of electric bike u have? Sounds interesting.

OSI

OSI wrote: »

I never have, but it wouldn't be unreasonable to expect that a tourist that doesn't know their way around or the locations of the limited chargers would be more likely to run out of juice than a local. I know that I have often spent ages as a tourist in a rental car looking for a petrol station, while I almost always know where the nearest station is when I'm in Ireland.

The Nissan Leaf has a navigation system that gets updated with the charger locations, however I don't know if it will cover another country ?

The Renaults have a quick battery swap option, and the company that builds the battery stations was blocked by the esb (strange that ) because they convinced the Government that it was not in Irelands best interest to have 1 company with the monopoly! haha such **** did I ever hear and the esb are the ones with the monopoly!!! The Government are bigger gob****es!

But the battery can be swapped in 1 min!

for god sake boards.ie why do you try NANNY us by filtering a word like SH*T ???

dr.fuzzenstein

Anan1 wrote: »

Wouldn't this hypothetical rental car be registered for fast charging?

Makes me think of the out-fcuking-rageous prices rental companies charge you for petrol when you bring it back half empty.
Worse than what hotels charge for using the phone in the room to dial out (or at least used to be, before cheap mobiles put an end to that)
Probably better to have a credit card/laser terminal.
There's a fuel depot where I work, completely automated, just roll up with your credit card and refill, it's great, no reason on this entire earth this cannot be done, though experience shows that sometimes people put more energy into an excuse of why they can't do something than it would have cost them to just do it anyway in the first place (if that makes sense to anyone...):cool:

dr.fuzzenstein

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Makes me think of the out-fcuking-rageous prices rental companies charge you for petrol when you bring it back half empty.
Worse than what hotels charge for using the phone in the room to dial out (or at least used to be, before cheap mobiles put an end to that)
Probably better to have a credit card/laser terminal.
There's a fuel depot where I work, completely automated, just roll up with your credit card and refill, it's great, no reason on this entire earth this cannot be done, though experience shows that sometimes people put more energy into an excuse of why they can't do something than it would have cost them to just do it anyway in the first place (if that makes sense to anyone...):cool:

Yes it makes sense, especially if you loose your tag or it doesn't work, then you are pretty much screwed!

650Ginge

650Ginge wrote: »

Can u post a link to the type of electric bike u have? Sounds interesting.

http://www.octane.ie/forum/showthread.php?t=55836

There you go.

You need to learn all about it first, before you buy anything. The parts have to be put together there are not really any kits!

reboot

OSI wrote: »

One thing I wonder about Electric cars. What happens when the inevitable comes true and it runs out of juice on the side of the road? You have to tow it to the nearest electricity point?

At least with an IC engine the AA dude can come out with a gallon tank of fuel, and you're off again in 5 minutes. I can't imagine there is any possibility to fit a quick charger in the back of a van, so either you sit on the side of the road for hours to get enough juice to make it the next charge point. Or you get towed.

I have seen the AA with a breakdown EV charge vehicle.

reboot

Deleted User wrote: »

Well Nissan already have 10 min charging, they may or may not have it tested enough for safety, by Gen II leaf in 2014. That's a crap load of energy being sent into the batteries and it's a damn fine achievement!!!

But yes I'd take 10 min to 80% over 300 miles range any day. Why ? well because my daily mileage these days is covered by my electric bicycle 10-12 miles @40mph is perfect and about 10 cent to charge, 8hp peak it's a total buzz. Range limited by my choice of battery, but covers my needs, no range anxiety because I designed it for my needs!

Even if I did drive every day, I wouldn't drive 100 miles nor do 90% of people.

SO why do we want expensive heavy batteries to cover 300 miles when in fact most people drive less than 50 miles a day ?

The Tesla model S will have a 300 mile range option but at greater cost for what? for it to sit there for the odd occasion you need to drive 300 miles ? mad!

If I want to go on holiday around Ireland if I have a range of 70-120 miles in the Leaf, I'd gladly want to stop for a rest so 20 mins to 80% is absolutely no big deal for me. And the deal breaker for me is of course the cost of electricity over petrol or diesel, it's a fraction of the cost!

The 10 min chargers would then be even better for higher mileage drivers, provided of course they have a longer lasting battery that can take such power without loss of capacity.

As for the life of the leaf battery, I wouldn't be too worried because the battery management system will never allow full charge or discharge, very few will drain it every day to empty anyway and their is a 0-80% mode to extent life even more! I doubt people will use the fast charger every day either!

What I find funny though is the E.S.B installing 220 volt trickle chargers on the streets, no one will want to leave their car on the street for hours and hours, you can charge at home at 220 volts, fast dc chargers is the only ones that should be installed for the public or allow 220 volt charging for my electric Bike which they wont!!!

If I go shopping, I don't want to be there for hours waiting for a charge, I want to charge fast!!!

Everyone has different requirements from their EV, but as far as I am concerned the following are sufficient. I can charge a Zoe to 80% in under an hour from a standard CP in the street,in reality,most times 40 mins is enough ,going for a coffee,shopping etc, as the car is never empty to start with.
In fact I have been pleading with Ecar NI to not be drawn into the push for Rapid DC,(Zoe doesn't use or need 120 amp DC.) other posts re cooking the Li Batts etc. I would be more than happy with ,as happens in multi storey in England, 32 amp 230v,CPs ala the free home chargers. Too many problems arising with EBG three phase CPs .Perhaps around £1k to install at almost any lamp post.
Don't know what happens in the South but electricity in the street CP is free I just had 7k miles of it ,thanks NIE.
Long journeys and business use,perhaps stick with ICE for now,please stay away from hybrids,sorry.

reboot

reboot wrote: »

Everyone has different requirements from their EV, but as far as I am concerned the following are sufficient. I can charge a Zoe to 80% in under an hour from a standard CP in the street,in reality,most times 40 mins is enough ,going for a coffee,shopping etc, as the car is never empty to start with.
In fact I have been pleading with Ecar NI to not be drawn into the push for Rapid DC,(Zoe doesn't use or need 120 amp DC.) other posts re cooking the Li Batts etc. I would be more than happy with ,as happens in multi storey in England, 32 amp 230v,CPs ala the free home chargers. Too many problems arising with EBG three phase CPs .Perhaps around £1k to install at almost any lamp post.
Don't know what happens in the South but electricity in the street CP is free I just had 7k miles of it ,thanks NIE.
Long journeys and business use,perhaps stick with ICE for now,please stay away from hybrids,sorry.

What's wrong with hybrids ?

AC charging is really good, but the future is absolutely without doubt DC.

But I agree ev's should have faster on board AC chargers, 20Kw is more than capable and we can install much cheaper ac points everywhere.

There are still many black spots for ev's , mainly the tourist areas, Glendalough for one, no charge point anywhere near, a 20 Kw ac point there would be more than suitable.

In the not so distant future ev's will charge at over 100 Kw and this will only be achievable with DC. But a/c should still play a major role.

reboot

Deleted User wrote: »

What's wrong with hybrids ?

AC charging is really good, but the future is absolutely without doubt DC.

But I agree ev's should have faster on board AC chargers, 20Kw is more than capable and we can install much cheaper ac points everywhere.

There are still many black spots for ev's , mainly the tourist areas, Glendalough for one, no charge point anywhere near, a 20 Kw ac point there would be more than suitable.

In the not so distant future ev's will charge at over 100 Kw and this will only be achievable with DC. But a/c should still play a major role.

As posted elsewhere,James May proud I3 owner admitted to being a coward when buying a hybrid. We just got rid of all the ICE parts that break down and need replacing, ("Who killed the Electric Car"), why bring them back If you don't need to, some do , I never will .

My MK II prius is approaching 200,000 Kms and hasn't had a single failure, few recalls, but no failures.

I can see why someone would want the range extender in the I3, someone might want the extra range without relying on an ev charge network or arrive at a qc and having to queue or the charger is down.

Personally I wouldn't want the range extender because if the range of the ev wasn't enough for my trip I'd simply drive the prius. We'd be keeping it anyway and I don;t want to spend 8 K extra on an engine I'd rarely use.

I could live with 1, possibly 2 qc on route after that I'd most likely take the prius.

Dexter1979

Current Prius Gen III driver and future Zoe driver. I can see where you are coming from, Reboot. 22kW points are a lot cheaper than Chademo or CSS points but they will always build them. You have to get a diverse infrastructure to cater for the different standards out there. You can just stop selling petrol since most cars use diesel these days. But there will always be a hell of a lot more 22kW points around the country that you can make use of to charge your car to 80% but the Leaf can only hope for about 25% if they are lucky to have the 6.6kW optional extra. Renault in France have stopped sponsoring 43kW Rapid chargers in favour of the cheaper but still fast 22kW points. A national network at Renault Dealers covering 95% of the country.

I must agree that I would like to see other ways of ID'ing the user. SMS, Smartphone app or something would be far better than having to get a different RFID card for every network if you go abroad. Mark (from leafdays.eu) needed about 12 for his last trip from France through Belgium, Netherlands, England, Scotland and Ireland. Which is ridiculous.

Cleveland Hot Pocket

Dexter1979 wrote: »

Current Prius Gen III driver and future Zoe driver. I can see where you are coming from, Reboot. 22kW points are a lot cheaper than Chademo or CSS points but they will always build them. You have to get a diverse infrastructure to cater for the different standards out there. You can just stop selling petrol since most cars use diesel these days. But there will always be a hell of a lot more 22kW points around the country that you can make use of to charge your car to 80% but the Leaf can only hope for about 25% if they are lucky to have the 6.6kW optional extra. Renault in France have stopped sponsoring 43kW Rapid chargers in favour of the cheaper but still fast 22kW points. A national network at Renault Dealers covering 95% of the country.

I must agree that I would like to see other ways of ID'ing the user. SMS, Smartphone app or something would be far better than having to get a different RFID card for every network if you go abroad. Mark (from leafdays.eu) needed about 12 for his last trip from France through Belgium, Netherlands, England, Scotland and Ireland. Which is ridiculous.

Wait, what?
Yeah that's never going to happen. What about all of the proper engined sportscars, other "driver's cars", even hybrids, they all run on petrol.
That will never happen, not in our lifetime anyway.

Anan1 wrote: »

For now, but that might change fast. Once the range/charging issues are sorted i'd have EV over a V12, never mind a V8. IC is an inherently crude way of propelling a car.

Seriously, wtf. Is this post (from 2012 albeit) in irony or something?

dr.fuzzenstein

Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »

Wait, what?
Yeah that's never going to happen. What about all of the proper engined sportscars, other "driver's cars", even hybrids, they all run on petrol.
That will never happen, not in our lifetime anyway.



Seriously, wtf. Is this post (from 2012 albeit) in irony or something?

There will always be petrol, especially now that 2 ton cars can be propelled at up to 50 mph using those whizz-bang new 1 liter milk carton engines, people will climb over each other to buy those, driving a Ford Galaxy with a 1 liter engine is almost every Irish man's dream!

As for any of that gentleman's posts, forget it, you know as well as I do...

LOL no one knows the future, The E.U could impose stricter emissions regulations, the end of diesel is on the horizon and more cars will be plug-in hybrid in the coming years and the U.K is considering a lot more bans on diesels in bigger towns and cities in the coming years. So yeah petrol will be around for at least another while yet.

It will be far easier and cheaper just to stuff a battery, motor and engine to reduce emissions than it will be to treat exhaust in diesels.

All it takes is for people to favour electrics and plugins over diesel.

The electricity consumption in the refining of petrol and diesel is absolutely staggering and I believe in a year could drive electrics a billion miles or more from one U.K refinery.

And to think people will say electric cars are as worse for the environment ? they way I see it petrol and diesel are far, far worse.

reboot

Dexter1979 wrote: »

Current Prius Gen III driver and future Zoe driver. I can see where you are coming from, Reboot. 22kW points are a lot cheaper than Chademo or CSS points but they will always build them. You have to get a diverse infrastructure to cater for the different standards out there. You can just stop selling petrol since most cars use diesel these days. But there will always be a hell of a lot more 22kW points around the country that you can make use of to charge your car to 80% but the Leaf can only hope for about 25% if they are lucky to have the 6.6kW optional extra. Renault in France have stopped sponsoring 43kW Rapid chargers in favour of the cheaper but still fast 22kW points. A national network at Renault Dealers covering 95% of the country.

I must agree that I would like to see other ways of ID'ing the user. SMS, Smartphone app or something would be far better than having to get a different RFID card for every network if you go abroad. Mark (from leafdays.eu) needed about 12 for his last trip from France through Belgium, Netherlands, England, Scotland and Ireland. Which is ridiculous.

I haven't signed up, but R Link may be of use to some.
On the ongoing charging debate ,accepting people have many varied requirement, my personal experience charging the Zoe over 14 months,leads me to believe my own charging regime could easily cope with 32 Amp single phase supply at almost any lamp post for about £1k installation, and the new Granny cable capable of up to 14 Amp.
Just can't bring myself to consider sticking 120 Amp into any Li battery long term, just me. There is not a limited amount of money available for this project, it should be spent wisely.

reboot

reboot wrote: »

I haven't signed up, but R Link may be of use to some.
On the ongoing charging debate ,accepting people have many varied requirement, my personal experience charging the Zoe over 14 months,leads me to believe my own charging regime could easily cope with 32 Amp single phase supply at almost any lamp post for about £1k installation, and the new Granny cable capable of up to 14 Amp.
Just can't bring myself to consider sticking 120 Amp into any Li battery long term, just me. There is not a limited amount of money available for this project, it should be spent wisely.

Over use of fast charging will cause a much faster rate of degradation, one case in the U.K where 20% capacity was lost after 50,000 miles from misuse of fast charging and charging a hot battery.

This is where it gets tricky, just because this happens the leaf does in no way mean it will happen the zoe, I3, E-Golf etc. Every electric car will have modifications to the chemistry.

There are battery chemistries well capable of taking extremly high charge rates but they are either a fire hazzard, not energy dense enough or both.

The Zoe battery is leased so I wouldn't be worried about fast charging it to death, the only thing is that it has to reach 75% capacity before it's replaced and this may or may not offer the range you need in winter which could see as low as 45 miles due to the lack of battery heating.

Only the Kia soul will have battery heating and it's an option on the I3.

reboot

Deleted User wrote: »

Over use of fast charging will cause a much faster rate of degradation, one case in the U.K where 20% capacity was lost after 50,000 miles from misuse of fast charging and charging a hot battery.

This is where it gets tricky, just because this happens the leaf does in no way mean it will happen the zoe, I3, E-Golf etc. Every electric car will have modifications to the chemistry.

There are battery chemistries well capable of taking extremly high charge rates but they are either a fire hazzard, not energy dense enough or both.

The Zoe battery is leased so I wouldn't be worried about fast charging it to death, the only thing is that it has to reach 75% capacity before it's replaced and this may or may not offer the range you need in winter which could see as low as 45 miles due to the lack of battery heating.

Only the Kia soul will have battery heating and it's an option on the I3.

I also think battery balancing, (between 90 and 100%) may be important in extending the battery life.Small scale Li-on projects I work with are a nightmare if the battery has not got its own computer, and I just charge each cell separately. Just noticed on a Zoe review they talk about the battery being "Actively Cooled",do you think that's what the coolant is doing, or perhaps its just for the motor?