Did Enda Kenny blame the Irish people for the crisis?

ejmaztec

UDAWINNER wrote: »

Not every irish person "needed" to have the holiday home or the new car every year not to mention the 5 bed detached house with only parents and a kid living in it.Now the tax payer will be asked out to bail these greedy people when they deafault on their bills. But hey, thats ok because we're all partied to excess. F. That

Not every Irish person was living in that world either.

Freddie59

biko wrote: »

You know, I would rephrase that "mad lending".

He was shown up for what he is. All facade - no substance. On a world stage. Calling the Irish people "mad".

FFS it is ruly hard to believe. Banks lent recklessly to cowboys who could never repay what they borrowed. And this cretin blames the Irish "people". Who are these "people"?

And as for the fake indignation of Hulk Hogan........:rolleyes::o

gcgirl

ejmaztec wrote: »

UDAWINNER wrote: »

Not every irish person "needed" to have the holiday home or the new car every year not to mention the 5 bed detached house with only parents and a kid living in it.Now the tax payer will be asked out to bail these greedy people when they deafault on their bills. But hey, thats ok because we're all partied to excess. F. That

Not every Irish person was living in that world either.

But it's true I know several who have done this
There are people who were sensible during the boom like myself who are now paying for these gobshytes
The recession back in the 80's was nothing compared to this recession due to personal debt

Freddie59

AngryBollix wrote: »

We're not blameless either.

Any attempt to absolve the general populace of their portion of responsibility is futile.

How so, exactly? You mean EVERYONE is to blame?

gcgirl

The amount of people who said to me renting is dead money yeh your living in a house that's worth half of what you paid for it, the stupidly of sheep following sheep mentality and keeping up with the jonese

Freddie59

sanbrafyffe wrote: »

well the truth has to be said and it is.irish people went over board borrowing so it shows ya the want in us as people.so ya hes blaming the irish people(not all) and the banks too.he cant be more right.well said enda

WTF? The majority of the population (myself included) are (and were) careful with our money and debt. The remainder who were caught up were recklessly loaned to by banks. Full stop.

Show Time

FF or FG are one and the same their only concern is to line their own pockets as best they can.

Freddie59

gcgirl wrote: »

But it's true I know several who have done this
There are people who were sensible during the boom like myself who are now paying for these gobshytes
The recession back in the 80's was nothing compared to this recession due to personal debt

Personal debt is not the issue. Apart from those fcuking banking cowboys, the 18Bn deficit is the issue - which is being maintained to fund PS pay and SW rates. But that gravy train will come crashing to a grinding halt one day. And it will be soon.

Yahew

Freddie59 wrote: »

WTF? The majority of the population (myself included) are (and were) careful with our money and debt. The remainder who were caught up were recklessly loaned to by banks. Full stop.

They way the banks were allowed to force the money on people was the worst bit. You were legally unable to say no if the banks found you a house and made you a mortgage offer. Disgusting.

Maximus Alexander

token101 wrote: »

So anyone who borrows money can just say, 'Sure I'm not an economist, I didn't know what I was doing'? :rolleyes:

Surely for something as big as a mortgage, you factor in everything in your decision making? Including worst case scenarios like losing a job? A lot of people didn't and were banking on two salaries just to maintain the roof over their head becuase they took on a stupidly high mortgage and now they're goosed. Would you say they have any responsibility for their problems? Yeah there's a lot of people who were desperately unlucky loosing two jobs in a family, but there's an awful lot more who didn't have basic maths skills and made some f***ing woeful decisions. Coddling people and saying 'It's not your fault, you're a victim' is nonsense.

That's not what I said at all. When someone borrows money their thought process is usually "Can I afford to pay this back?" That's as far is it goes. The answer at the time was "Well, I have a secure job that I have been in for the last six years, I'm getting a raise every year and things are looking really good. In the worst case scenario that I lost this job somehow, well I'm highly qualified and experienced, so I won't have much trouble getting another one".

How could you possibly expect people to start thinking "Well, the banks are lending beyond their means and the property bubble is about to burst at which point I'll lose my job and thousands of companies will go bust so I should probably do my part and avoid buying a home for my family".

Freddie59

Show Time wrote: »

FF or FG are one and the same their only concern is to line their own pockets as best they can.

And remember, as they line their pockets (on the back of the aformentioned deficit) the country is getting deeper and deeper in Debt. FFS the state was paying for TDs to post out Christmas Cards in 2011.:mad:

cournioni

Good man Enda, you can't beat a nice bit of hypocrisy, can ya?! ****ing plank.

Freddie59

Yahew wrote: »

They way the banks were allowed to force the money on people was the worst bit. You were legally unable to say no if the banks found you a house and made you a mortgage offer. Disgusting.

Yeah you're right.:rolleyes: The same banks who were loaning up to ten times a person's income, knowing they could never pay it back.

The same banks who were bailed out and are now chasing people for 'debt'.
(That IBRC situation is completely surreal).

The same banks who are still paying golf club and yacht club membership for 14,000 staff.

Yes. Truly disgusting.

Freddie59

where do i go from here wrote: »

He's right to blame the Irish people.

Not one person was given a loan against their will.

Anyone who doesn't realise that booms and recessions are part of a natural (economically at least) cycle shouldn't be trusted to go to the toilet on their own.

How can you loan a mortgage of E300k to someone on E30K a year? Seriously? FFS a child in senior infants could see what was going to happen there.

My name is URL

Yahew

Freddie59 wrote: »

Yeah you're right.:rolleyes: The same banks who were loaning up to ten times a person's income, knowing they could never pay it back.

The banks presumably made the same calculation that the adult buyer of the house made about whether they could pay it back or not.

The same banks who were bailed out and are now chasing people for 'debt'.
(That IBRC situation is completely surreal).

The same banks who are still paying golf club and yacht club membership for 14,000 staff.

Yes. Truly disgusting.

A separate argument to the main argument - are people resonsible for their own actions.

SafeSurfer

token101 wrote: »

You're under no obligation to accept it. Does personal responsibility come into this anywhere?

Does corporate responsibility come into it?

I guess you don't think so.

Show Time

Freddie59 wrote: »

And remember, as they line their pockets (on the back of the aformentioned deficit) the country is getting deeper and deeper in Debt. FFS the state was paying for TDs to post out Christmas Cards in 2011.:mad:

The frighting thing is when the next election rolls around i can see FF back in power.

Yahew

Freddie59 wrote: »

How can you loan a mortgage of E300k to someone on E30K a year? Seriously? FFS a child in senior infants could see what was going to happen there.

Except nobody did. Going back to Dublin were the cost of housing exceeded 300K in 2006, and the average income was 30K or thereabouts I remember pub and dinner conversations where my pessimism about the market was poo pooed. People who were pessimistic about the market didnt buy. The rest of ye did buy, were optimisitc as the banks, and are now blaming De Banks.

Yahew

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Does corporate responsibility come into it?

I guess you don't think so.

I would say both come into it.

Maximus Alexander

Yahew wrote: »

Except nobody did. Going back to Dublin were the cost of housing exceeded 300K in 2006, and the average income was 30K or thereabouts I remember pub and dinner conversations where my pessimism about the market was poo pooed. People who were pessimistic about the market didnt buy. The rest of ye are blaming De Banks.

Come off it. Some people like yourself and myself had the option not to buy. Others needed homes for their families.

Still others were afraid that the prices would continue to rise, if not indefinitely, then possibly for another decade. They could afford the repayments then, saw no reason why their job would be in danger, or why they wouldn't be able to sell the house if they needed to, and tried to get in before prices rose even further.

Get off the high horse, it could just as easily have been you if your circumstances were different. And if you insist that you're just super special and predicted all of this, then I re-iterate my point, you can not expect every person to have that kind of knowledge or insight into economics.

Naomi00

I know people don't like Gordon Browne, but if anyone remembers his interview on the Late Late Show last year, he said that the Irish people didn't cause the crisis and were not living some lavish lifestyle that the TD's keep going on about, it was banks, politicians,dodgy business people etc. I know it's nothing extraordinary but it was so true. Finally someone just said it for what it was.

The amount of TD's who've said 'we' in terms of wasting money is so annoying. They've constantly blamed every Irish person as if we were all acting like Bertie Ahern or something, which is not true at all and is just embarrassing really.

Yahew

LeighH wrote: »

Come off it. Some people like yourself and myself had the option not to buy. Others needed homes for their families.

Still others were afraid that the prices would continue to rise, if not indefinitely, then possibly for another decade. They could afford the repayments then, saw no reason why their job would be in danger, or why they wouldn't be able to sell the house if they needed to, and tried to get in before prices rose even further.

Get off the high horse, it could just as easily have been you if your circumstances were different. And if you insist that you're just super special and predicted all of this, then I re-iterate my point, you can no expect every person to have that kind of knowledge or insight into economics.

It wouldnt have been me, not because I didnt want to buy, but because I understood the economics. We teach this stuff in school, and most of the buyers were the most educated class we ever produced.

The economics was simple, in fact somebody just said that a 30K earner should not have gotten a 300K mortgage. Quite, and yet people would consider that normal, particularly if they did buy that house.

The bank shouldn't have offered it, and the person shouldn't have accepted it
both in it

foxyboxer

As a former Teacher, he should make us all do lines.


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Freddie59

Yahew wrote: »

The banks presumably made the same calculation that the adult buyer of the house made about whether they could pay it back or not.

The Banks were fully aware of what they were doing. The onus was on them.

Yahew wrote: »

A separate argument to the main argument - are people resonsible for their own actions.

Not so. An example of how out of touch banks still are - in comparison to the Irish taxpayer paying for their folly, even though they had nothing to do with it.

Anyone

Have to admit, its a mixture of anger and embarrassment when I see and read Enda Kenny these days. I'm angry with what he has said, and embarrassed he is our representative.

Freddie59

bluewolf wrote: »

The bank shouldn't have offered it, and the person shouldn't have accepted it
both in it

But if it hadn't been offered there would not have been a choice to accept it.

Freddie59

Show Time wrote: »

The frighting thing is when the next election rolls around i can see FF back in power.

I dunno. The Shinners are looming large. If they get it you can shut up shop I think.

Freddie59

Freddie59 wrote: »

But if it hadn't been offered there would not have been a choice to accept it.

so what? people can have the choice to do what they want

DoesNotCompute

Sure tis graaaand, there's still 1.8 million employed and you'll still be able to afford a holiday this year :rolleyes:

Freddie59

Yahew wrote: »

Except nobody did. Going back to Dublin were the cost of housing exceeded 300K in 2006, and the average income was 30K or thereabouts I remember pub and dinner conversations where my pessimism about the market was poo pooed. People who were pessimistic about the market didnt buy. The rest of ye did buy, were optimisitc as the banks, and are now blaming De Banks.

'Ye'? Who is this 'ye' you speak of? As pointed out already, the onus lay on the banks. Full stop. As one poster has said what about corporate responsibility. The banks were the 'experts'. Not people people borrowing the money.

Yahew

Freddie59 wrote: »

The Banks were fully aware of what they were doing. The onus was on them.

Nonsense, the banks believed the same hype as the buyers. They didnt want to go bust.

BTW any attempt to roll in the credit in 2005 would have caused a recession. Since most people would not have thought there was a problem with over lending, the government at that time would be considered responsible for that recession and for driving prices down.

Also our private debt is a huge issue, its 300% of GDP or something ludicrous.

Freddie59

bluewolf wrote: »

so what? people can have the choice to do what they want

It's not that simple. I think anyone can appreciate that.

Yahew

Freddie59 wrote: »

'Ye'? Who is this 'ye' you speak of? As pointed out already, the onus lay on the banks. Full stop. As one poster has said what about corporate responsibility. The banks were the 'experts'. Not people people borrowing the money.

This "ye" I speak of is the entire population of Dublin i met when I went back to Ireland in 2006, a country I left because of its crazy moneyed over pricedness. All of ye. To a man. Full stop.

Freddie59

Yahew wrote: »

This "ye" I speak of is the entire population of Dublin i met when I went back to Ireland in 2006, a country I left because of its crazy moneyed over pricedness. All of ye. To a man. Full stop.

Firstly, I'm not from Dublin.

Secondly, the 'whole population' of Dublin was at it?:rolleyes:

theteal

My faith in him will never wane :rolleyes:

Yahew

Freddie59 wrote: »

Firstly, I'm not from Dublin.

Secondly, the 'whole population' of Dublin was at it?:rolleyes:

I am sure there were a few outliers. In general I would meet 20+ people on a longish trip home in Summer, and I met nobody who thought the property would collapse. Thats a fair sample.

There were people on here predicting armageddon. You have been here long enough to post on that infamous thread - did you?

Freddie59

Yahew wrote: »

Nonsense, the banks believed the same hype as the buyers. They didnt want to go bust.

BTW any attempt to roll in the credit in 2005 would have caused a recession. Since most people would not have thought there was a problem with over lending, the government at that time would be considered responsible for that recession and for driving prices down.

Also our private debt is a huge issue, its 300% of GDP or something ludicrous.

See, years ago a Bank could not loan more than it had on deposit (very clever really). When Thatcher and Reagan removed the safeguards in 1985 (which had been in place since the Great Depression) to 'kickstart the economy' all Hell broke loose.

But far from being rubbish there was a corporate responsibility and obligation on the banks. They failed. Yes, SOME people were completely stupid (even some my age who would have been in their mid-40s at the time).

But the stupidity could not have occurred if the Banks had tread warily. Which they did not. Personal debt is on the increase, because some people are using credit cards to pay everyday things.

Last year in Ireland, one euro in every seven was spent on a VISA card.

Freddie59

Yahew wrote: »

I am sure there were a few outliers. In general I would meet 20+ people on a longish trip home in Summer, and I met nobody who thought the property would collapse. Thats a fair sample.

There were people on here predicting armageddon. You have been here long enough to post on that infamous thread - did you?

Which one is that? FWIW we were FORCED to move house in 2008 (long story and nothing to do with economics). Because I had seen the 80s we rented while prices dropped (which was still in big denial at the time). Thankfully, we bought another house for way less than we sold ours. In 2008 I could still probably have gotten a mortgage of 5-6 times my salary.

We didn't. And many people were sensible like us. As for the mid-20s I couldn't comment really.

yupyup7up

He did blame the irish people, but in the end, people are stupid! Why do banks refuse loans? Because they feel it's beyond your means to pay back.

Banks have far more to be responsible about because they didn't really regulate mortgages etc at all. 100% mortgages? Offering them alone is completely retarded!

Now it is quite difficult for people to get loans, mortgages etc. It should have been like this the whole time. People seen it as "free money", which of course there is no such thing. Banks are 90% responsible IMO. And no I wasn't caught out with mortgages etc

RATM

Wicklowrider wrote: »

Just wondering did MOST people really go mad borrowing?
Was this a certain section of society?

I can honestly only think of one couple I know who borrowed a lot more than they could afford. One or two single lads I knew were driving cars they probably shouldn't have borrowed for. If I look around my neighbours I can't say any of them done anything mildly extravagant (or even exciting )

Was saying the exact same thing myself to a mate last night. Yes I know of a few people who bought houses at crazy prices but there weren't doing it as speculators but so they could own their own home and bring up a family. I also knew a couple of people who got €20k loans to buy a '06 car but it is hardly smaller loans like those that are sinking this country.

Fact of the matter is that 181 very wealthy citizens of this country borrowed €61bn* between them and now can't pay that back. They are the people who went borrowing like mad, not your average Joe on the street.

Kenny should be ashamed of himself. First we had Noonan's comments on emigration being a lifestyle choice and Varadakar spouting about'bombs going off in Dublin' and now Kenny talking out of both sides of his mouth.

I'm now convinced that this government are going to be removed from power before their 5 year stint it up. Not even a year in they have turned into Continuity FF and the Irish people are bound to snap at some stage in the next two years.



*I tried to divide €61,000,000,000 by 181 people on my iPhone to get an average borrowing by this select group of property speculators. But it turns out the figure is so big even Apple don't know how to process it. A top of the head calculation is that the average developer in this group borrowed circa €300m each. They're are the ones who 'went mad borrowing', not us Enda.

Park Royal

Gmol wrote: »

I don't get the point you are trying to make in response to my previous post

I'm not knocking your valid enough point, I'm adding to it as regards

truthfulness...... how many politicians etc ...are telling us we are

all in this together.......when this is clearly not so.....indeed it is

lying, as many of them know well , they are going to fall into a pension so

big, its obscene.......together with the other 250 senior people in the same

comfortable boat .......their grand but dont let them tell us were all in this

together.......its time to be truthful ...even for putting accurate

information on loan application forms....

Galtee

Freddie59 wrote: »

I dunno. The Shinners are looming large. If they get it you can shut up shop I think.

I'm no shinners advocate by any stretch, but they're the only ones who haven't a hand in making a donkeys schlong of things to date. Maybe they should be given the chance, they can't do much worse TBH.

Caoimhín

Anyone wrote: »

He's not right, peoples personal solvency and their ability to repay their debts has been affected by this crisis, it hasn't caused it. Theres a massive difference.

No, peoples insolvency (well the people who took out imprudent loans has caused their insolvency). The global financial credit crunch made it worse.

Bottom line, people should have been prudent and not taken out massive loans for overpriced houses or lifestyle bling when they didnt take into account that they MAY lose their jobs and not be able to afford it down the line.

In my opinion (and im just a simple country forester) it was very clearly a massive asset bubble (property) and many should have looked at any "worst case" senario and their ability to bay.

Certainly people buying homes were ugered on by the hubris from developers, estate agent, government and vester interestse (even parents) to "get on the property ladder" before it was too late.

Like I said, I am no expert on property or economics, but when I returned from University in 2001, I was shocked at how a 3 bed seim cost more than a 3 bed semi in Dublin. It immedatly struck me as a classic housing bubble. I saved my money and now plan ob building a modest home in Leitrim for.

Im not engaging in Schandenfreud bere, but it bugs the hell of of me when people say the global crash was caused by outside influsnces.

Many people got out a mortgage and bought a house with they couldnt affore after years due to loss of jobs, but this possibility should always be taken into account when applying for the large credit.

To sum up, there are 3 things responsible for this mess;
1)Lending pracrices (including low EC interrates) to the irish to but when it was clear to many that the bubble was about to bust.
2)Poor governance that didnt protect the people form greedy banks. Also poor regulation from the Central Bank and Financial regulatio who didnt monitor the banks lending.
3)Many people DID get causht up in the mania often in an attempe to out do their neighbourd.

Finally, the debt we have now from the ECB/IMF/EC, the government was still spending well over budget every year from the income from the housing bubble. This take in tax vrs spending would have had to be address and rebalance anyway. Our books are well out of balance, especially now with high enemployment and a massivly overpaid and mostly inificiant public/civil servants (THE NEW ELITE IN iRELAND)


3)Government

ejmaztec

It seemed that anyone involved in the property industry had money thrown at them by foreign and domestic banks. It was dead easy for anyone involved to get their hands on loans, overdraft facilities (even if they didn't need them). People working for some of the auctioneers that I know were competing with each other to see how many buy-to-lets they could stack up. These people are all in the sh1t now because most of the tenants have left the country.

There was no instant finance available to businesses that weren't involved in property, as these were subject to scrutiny. I took one guy along to AIB during the height of the boom, because he wanted to borrow €100K to buy a retail business. There was no property involved, because it was a rental. The bank told him to feck off because he didn't have a business track-record.

Had he walked into AIB and told them that he was going to build a dozen houses, they would have had no hesitation in handing over the money, whether he had a track-record or not.

Agricola

Naomi00 wrote: »

I know people don't like Gordon Browne, but if anyone remembers his interview on the Late Late Show last year, he said that the Irish people didn't cause the crisis and were not living some lavish lifestyle that the TD's keep going on about, it was banks, politicians,dodgy business people etc. I know it's nothing extraordinary but it was so true. Finally someone just said it for what it was.

The amount of TD's who've said 'we' in terms of wasting money is so annoying. They've constantly blamed every Irish person as if we were all acting like Bertie Ahern or something, which is not true at all and is just embarrassing really.

The essence of politics is being two faced. Browne may placate a Late Late Show audience with that stuff, but what do you think he said to his colleagues in parliament or to business leaders and big banking honchos in the city of London? Politicians tell people what they want to hear.

DanWall

I built my first house a 4 bedroom bungalow in 1980 for £22,000 punt + £3,000 for half an acre.
People were forced to pay ridicules prices in 2006 because the developers were making a killing

Einhard

HE WAS CORRECT!!

Sorry for the shouting!!

But he's right. In a general sense, the Irish people over-borrowed during the economic boom. Not every single person or family but many of us. Everyone accepts the idea that the banks engaged in reckless lending, but seemunable to grasp the corollary- reckless lending can only take place where there are reckless borrowers. And there were plenty of those. Of course, there were many irresponsible developers, and they share with the banks a huge part of the blame for the collapse. There were also though, many ordinary citizens who borrowed imprudently, and this is reflected in the personal borrowing figures for Ireland.

There's really no escaping it- many people in Ireland went mad on credit. That's a fact. And I for one welcome a politician who's honest and brave enough to stand up and tell some hard home truths, espcially when he knows it will hurt him electorally. Because, from what I can see, many people on this forum and elsewhere decry Fianna Fail and their style of politics, and yet demand that politicians continue pander to them with half truths and falsehoods. That's not change.

Thanks Enda Kenny for having the balls, once again, to tell things as they are. Anyone who thinks otherwise should probably stop deluding themselves that they want a different sort of politics, and go back to voting for Fianna Fail. They'll fill you with all the cosy littlle lies and false platitudes for which you so obviously yearn.

Nothingbetter2d

sanbrafyffe wrote: »

well the truth has to be said and it is.irish people went over board borrowing so it shows ya the want in us as people.so ya hes blaming the irish people(not all) and the banks too.he cant be more right.well said enda

i have NO loans, or a morgage, & no credit cards, so why have I gotta pay more taxes then? Im not to blame for reckless borrowing.