Pepper Spray

Hobbitfeet

Is pepper spray legal? I see the law has changed and you can now use force to protect yourself and home from intruders.
So could you use pepper spray to protect yourself if someone tried to break in?

Think_then_talk

Pepper Spray's, CS gas spray & Stun guns, are totally prohibited in Ireland and firearm certificates are not granted for these weapons.
http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/Pages/Individuals

Zambia

Only if you took it off the attacker I suppose. I saw a bloke use it to try and steal a bag of cash by connolly station once. Offenders do have it.

Corruptable

This question is frequently asked, so there's tons of comment and opinion on it which can be found using the search function.

However, to answer your question, the Criminal Law (Defence and the Dwelling) Act 2012 has no impact on this issue. Tasers, batons, contact stun guns, rubber bullet guns (as recently featured in part one of RTE's Hostile Environment documentary), pepper or OC spray, knives, swords and any other article intended to cause harm to another is illegal and most cases are prosecuted under Section 9(4) of the Firearms and Offensive Weapons Act 1990.

However, it is likely that you could plead self-defence (or legitimate defence) if you used one of these items and it resulted in harm or death to an assailant but this would not exempt you from prosecution for possession of the item.

Punishment for possession (other than a fine of at least €1,000) is a max of 12 months at summary (District Court) level and five years at indictable (Circuit Court) level.

As pointed out, criminals do have it and much worse. All the prohibited items are ridiculously easy to obtain, and proper regulation for much of them, akin to other EU countries such as France, would probably be a better outcome.

Hobbitfeet

Thanks for the info. There has been a lot of robberies lately in this area and I'm currently 9 months pregnant and was getting a bit worried about being here on my own. Someone had told me the law had changed recently and you were now allowed shot someone in self defence? I don't own a gun and don't want to thought pepper spray would be a good idea

MagicSean

Hobbitfeet wrote: »

Thanks for the info. There has been a lot of robberies lately in this area and I'm currently 9 months pregnant and was getting a bit worried about being here on my own. Someone had told me the law had changed recently and you were now allowed shot someone in self defence? I don't own a gun and don't want to thought pepper spray would be a good idea

It doesn't work on everyone and would only buy you a few minutes.

Hobbitfeet

Maybe that's all I'd need to protect myself and baby, to get to neighbours house or something. What would you suggest?

Zambia

Take it from me pepper spray is not the fix all solution you think it is. Sometimes it does not work and sometimes you both get a dose of it.

Best you invest it door locks and secure windows.

Procrastastudy

In all honesty most robbers will bolt at the first sign there's someone in the place as they're plenty of empty place to rob. You'd be much better off turning your back and saying "on ya go lads". You're life / babies life is worth more than the few items they are going to lift. I realise insurance may not be an option and the loss of stuff you work hard for is the crap end of the stick for anyone but 'things' can be replaced.

Some practical advice would be some sort of alarm - not an installed one - the canister types make as much noise as possible. If the worst comes to the worst shout fire as if you're shouting anything else it doesn't affect people so it tends to get ignored. Wonderful the world in which we live.

Hobbitfeet

Thanks Zambia, there is locks on all the doors and windows. Seem safe enough we are in rented house so it would be up to landlord to upgrade them if he wanted.
Its my 1st baby and I'm just starting to worry about crazy things like this happening. There has been some robberies where people are pretending to be from council etc to get you to open the door.

Procrastastudy

I live in an okay area but never open the door to anyone unless they've rung me on the mobile first. Could be the TV licence people for Gods sake!!!

House? Great ID though letter box or bugger off - if you want the meter reading I'll go get it for you!

benway

I'd take every reasonable precaution - locks, alarm, making sure callers show ID, etc. - and then not worry too much about it. The overwhelming likelihood is that your house won't be broken into while anyone's home, especially if you've taken reasonable care to secure the place.

Congratulations on the new arrival!

Victor

Hobbitfeet wrote: »

I'm currently 9 months pregnant

Congratulations!

I suspect using pepper spray indoors / in a confined space isn't good.

Corruptable wrote: »

However, it is likely that you could plead self-defence (or legitimate defence) if you used one of these items and it resulted in harm or death to an assailant but this would not exempt you from prosecution for possession of the item.

Questions may be asked as to why you had a dangerous weapon and if you pre-planned using it on someone. Suddenly a simple possession charge becomes much more serious.

As pointed out, criminals do have it and much worse.

Some criminals have them, not all.

Hobbitfeet wrote: »

There has been a lot of robberies lately in this area and I'm currently 9 months pregnant and was getting a bit worried about being here on my own. Someone had told me the law had changed recently and you were now allowed shot someone in self defence? I don't own a gun and don't want to thought pepper spray would be a good idea

Hobbitfeet wrote: »

There has been a lot of robberies lately in this area and I'm currently 9 months pregnant and was getting a bit worried about being here on my own.

Being protective is perfectly understandable, however weapons usually aren't the best idea. Not least that the weapon could be turned against you.

Someone had told me the law had changed recently and you were now allowed shot someone in self defence?

The law hasn't really changed. All that was changed was that accepted practice (common law) was codified into statute law.

MagicSean

Hobbitfeet wrote: »

Maybe that's all I'd need to protect myself and baby, to get to neighbours house or something. What would you suggest?

Sturdy locks on windows and doors
Alarm
Big dog
Outdoor lights
CCTV
Electric gates

In that order of priority

Hobbitfeet

Thanks everyone for the replies and advice will be taking it all on board. Don't think I would usually worry so much but with 1st baby due any day crazy things like this are hard to shake off

Zambia

Get use to the worry its all part of having kids, I wish I could say it passes.

Enjoy the ride

Procrastastudy

How much flaming will typing the word "hormones" get me?

Seriously though congrats on the baby!

Big dog that's gonna scare off a knacker + new baby probably not the best idea but the rest of the list is good :P

Ayla

Sounds nuts, but I would second the 'big dog' suggestion...

We have a Great Dane who is sheer useless as a guard dog (she literally will hide if we try to suggest she goes to the door to investigate an odd sound) but no one else knows that. She does have a deep bark which she brings out the odd time and since any potential thugs would see her out in the yard I feel 200% safe in our unsecured (unlocked when home) house.

However, as taking on a dog of any size isn't always desired, there are alternatives...I've seen motion detectors that let out a deep bark when they go off. It'd be enough to be a deterant if anyone's skulking around. There are also (I think) handheld "barkers" that you can set off if you find someone's broken in.

johnnyskeleton

Hobbitfeet wrote: »

There has been a lot of robberies lately in this area and I'm currently 9 months pregnant and was getting a bit worried about being here on my own.

Congratulations. I'm not a medical doctor or anything, but I suspect you won't be there on your own for much longer!

Del2005

There are plenty of legal items in every home that can be used to protect yourself if necessary.

But your better off keeping the people out than a heavily pregnant woman, or with a new born baby, trying to deal with the scum. Contact you LL and ask for a upgraded locks. It'll be of benefit for you, reduce your stress, and they can claim tax relief on them.

Corruptable

Victor wrote: »

Questions may be asked as to why you had a dangerous weapon and if you pre-planned using it on someone. Suddenly a simple possession charge becomes much more serious.

I had figured that, as a matter of interest, what would you be looking at in that case? There a many people I know from all ages and classes who possess such articles with that premeditated intent. It would be useful to forewarn them of the possible consequences although I'm sure some would continue to chance it and prefer to be "judged by 12 rather than be carried by six".

/ begin rant

Personally I think our laws (and the UK laws) in the area are too broad, and are framed from a nanny-state perspective. While I know countries elsewhere in the EU have the odd crime involving these items which can be lawfully sold over the counter in these countries the problem in our context is that mature, law abiding people can't get them but dodgy individuals easily have their hands on them, and in many cases, worse items.

For instance, I recently heard of a person from overseas who has a stockpile of firearms available locally, and I'm sure dodgy individuals have heard of this person too, so I can only imagine that money is changing hands. This is a rural area as well, so it was quite worrying when I heard it first time.

The fact is that violent crime is on the uptake from what I hear with US-style home invasions involving knives occurring with worrying frequency while the resources given to the gardai and the morale of the force are dwindling, this means a longer response times and an increased likelihood of homeowners confronting assailants. So I say level the playing field somewhat, do like the French and require medical certification, copies of ID, and a register of sales, and legislate for the use of such items in limited circumstances (i.e.: within the dwelling).

/ end of rant.

Pkiernan

Victor wrote: »

Being protective is perfectly understandable, however weapons usually aren't the best idea. Not least that the weapon could be turned against you.

.

Totally bogus argument, and usually used by people who think there should be nor right to self defense (not saying you believe that).

While here temporarily in Arizona, I carry a self defense weapon, and I have no qualms that it will be taken away from me.

And so what if it was? If an armed intruder is set on doing you harm, then so what if he takes your pepper spray away from you. He was probably going to knife/shoot you in the first place.

As to the legalities of self defense in Ireland, we still have none. If you injure an intruder, and he escapes to tell the tale, you will be in more trouble than him.

Procrastastudy

I'd take the situation in Ireland over the situation in the US any day of the week!

Corruptable

Pkiernan wrote: »

As to the legalities of self defense in Ireland, we still have none. If you injure an intruder, and he escapes to tell the tale, you will be in more trouble than him.

In my view that's a valid point. Even with the right to defend one's dwelling codified by the new Act, the fact is that the scales are still tilted in favour of the criminals in some respects. It is still the home owner who will be subjected to the more serious scrutiny (than the invader) of the criminal justice system for their actions.

Both Ireland and the UK have had the controversial cases (Tony Martin in the UK and the Nally case here) in which common sense only narrowly prevailed, with both ending in initial convictions. In the Nally case, there was thankfully a jury nullification. I think it is shocking that to do right required the jury to actually go against and disregard the established law to achieve a just outcome.

Del2005

Pkiernan wrote: »

As to the legalities of self defense in Ireland, we still have none. If you injure an intruder, and he escapes to tell the tale, you will be in more trouble than him.

That's why you always put the 1st bullet in the person, shout stop or I'll shoot again and then shoot the wall

benway

Corruptable wrote: »

In my view that's a valid point. Even with the right to defend one's dwelling codified by the new Act, the fact is that the scales are still tilted in favour of the criminals in some respects. It is still the home owner who will be subjected to the more serious scrutiny (than the invader) of the criminal justice system for their actions.

Both Ireland and the UK have had the controversial cases (Tony Martin in the UK and the Nally case here) in which common sense only narrowly prevailed, with both ending in initial convictions. In the Nally case, there was thankfully a jury nullification. I think it is shocking that to do right required the jury to actually go against and disregard the established law to achieve a just outcome.

There always was a common law right to use reasonable force in defence of property, the new Act is only populist grandstanding, doesn't change the position one iota.

Tony Martin shot the guy in the back as he was running away and Nally killed Frog Ward by shooting him at close range, having already disabled him with his first shot - hardly reasonable force by anyone's definition, even under the new legislation.

Both deserved jail, if you ask me - would even go so far as to say that Nally would be getting off lightly with a manslaughter conviction.

Corruptable wrote: »

The fact is that violent crime is on the uptake from what I hear with US-style home invasions involving knives occurring with worrying frequency

Not necessarily the case. Burglary levels have been steady over the past five years, while there has been a slight upswing in aggravated burglary, it's still moving around a mean of 300 or so per year. 300 or so too many, granted, but hardly an epidemic.

http://www.cso.ie/Quicktables/GetQuickTables.aspx?FileName=cja01c12.asp&TableName=Burglary+and+related+offences&StatisticalProduct=DB_CJ

Actually, even the Gardaí are of the view that the fear of crime in this country is out of proportion to the threat, and negatively impacts on people's quality of life.

http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/Fear%20of%20Crime%20in%20Ireland.pdf/Files/Fear%20of%20Crime%20in%20Ireland.pdf

Pkiernan wrote:

As to the legalities of self defense in Ireland, we still have none. If you injure an intruder, and he escapes to tell the tale, you will be in more trouble than him.

Care to explain?

fitz265

the law changed and your aloud to protect yourself and home so i would asume peper spray would be perfectly leagal to use me personaly i would use any means neccesay to protect my family and home

Del2005

fitz265 wrote: »

the law changed and your aloud to protect yourself and home so i would asume peper spray would be perfectly leagal to use me personaly i would use any means neccesay to protect my family and home

Pepper spray is totally illegal in this country for Joe Public. If you use it on someone in your house you're going to have to answer a lot of questions.

I can't understand why people are so into pepper spray or CS when everyone's house is full to the gills with completely legal serious chemicals that can do more or less harm

But it still doesn't stop the scumbag from getting into your house and holding a boiling kettle over your head, or worst your kids, looking for the car keys and valuables.

Keeping the f**kers out is the only way to guarantee your families safety. IIRC a dog of any kind is the best deterrent, otherwise you need to secure all doors and any accessible windows.

Victor

Del2005 wrote: »

But it still doesn't stop the scumbag from getting into your house and holding a boiling kettle over your head, or worst your kids, looking for the car keys and valuables.

This is an urban myth.

MagicSean

Victor wrote: »

This is an urban myth.

Actually it isn't. It's just not a common thing but it has been done.

Zambia

MagicSean wrote: »

Actually it isn't. It's just not a common thing but it has been done.

"The belief in a supernatural source of evil is not necessary; men alone are quite capable of every wickedness."
-- Joseph Conrad

coylemj

Hobbitfeet wrote: »

There has been a lot of robberies lately in this area

Can I ask how you know this? You didn't by any chance hear it from a door to door saleslady flogging a well known brand of monitored alarm?

benway

MagicSean wrote: »

Actually it isn't. It's just not a common thing but it has been done.

.... in the movies.

Not for one moment saying that awful crimes aren't committed week-in, week-out, but the disproportionate media focus on the more extreme examples operates on the brain's heuristic biases, leading to a perception that serious crime is more prevalent than it actually is.

Simply put, the extreme stories stick in the mind, which, coupled with the fact that extreme stories are granted media coverage disproportionate to the number of actual instances, leads us to believe that the world is fast descending into anarchy.

http://ejc.sagepub.com/content/14/2/191.short

This is before even starting on Hollywood fantasies.

Corruptable

Statistics can show whatever you want them to show, and claims that the threat is greatly exaggerated may make it easier for you to sleep at night but it's all irrelevant until you become the victim of crime and have to live with the fear day in day out.

The truth is I think there's a huge difference of opinion between rural dwellers and city dwellers on this issue. If you live circa 20 miles from the nearest Garda station, like many people like Nally do, you'll appreciate the fear. My own uncle, an elderly farmer, was robbed with a knife through his throat in his own home a few years ago, yet after he admitted going for the firearm he keeps after he broke free from his attackers, the gardai confiscated that weapon and it's still not given back two years later.

It is my view, and your entitled to disagree, that the laws with regard to this issue are not up to date with the view of the people who live within them. In the last two months, two robberies in the same area involving aggravated burglary (i.e.: being tied up at knife point, allegedly committed by foreign nationals who many believe just have to hop on the boat and disappear if in fear of being caught) are enough to convince me that not enough protection is available to home owners.

So, I'm sorry but while I used to have a liberal viewpoint like yourself on these issues, my view now is generally based more guards, more prisons, longer sentences, and more guns rather than the waffle emanating from academics, judges, and counsel who don't live in the real world.

benway

Ha, I think you'll find that it's the Daily Mail hang 'em high brigade who aren't living in the real world, much as they like to accuse anyone who disagrees with them of being out of touch. You know, people who look at verifiable facts and figures, and scientific research to form their views, rather than supposition and prejudice.

If you find an intruder in your house who seems to be set on robbing the place, you have ... and have always had ... the right to use sufficient force to subdue him/her. What more do you need?

You don't, and shouldn't have the right to kill the intruder in cold blood: “it is ridiculous to suggest that a private citizen, however outraged, may deliberately kill [a burglar] simply for being a burglar”.

What exactly are you suggesting? More laws?

I have been the victim of crime, btw, but I accept it as an isolated, relatively unusual occurrence and get on with my life. I still take every reasonable precaution, but beyond that I don't worry unduly.

Don Booker

I have a friend recently made redundant. He bought a wood lathe and is now selling top quality varnished base-ball bats to people. His small handheld one originally designed for children is his top-seller. He lathes each piece himself.
Full length bat is €75
Small bat is €55
He also does personal carvings on them for extra. He's opening a website shortly. Least someone hasn't given up.

Don't like pepper spray since i seen that cop in New York doing the students with it. That's not right!

Hobbitfeet

coylemj wrote: »

Can I ask how you know this? You didn't by any chance hear it from a door to door saleslady flogging a well known brand of monitored alarm?

No heard from neighbours and it was also in the local paper 2 houses broken into in the estate I live in.
Have seen the Guards drive around the estate at least once a day the past week so at least they are doing something

benway

Hey OP, I think what I'm trying to say is that I don't think you should let the fear of crime rule your life. Obviously you should take every precaution to secure your home, maybe even get a dog. But once you've done that, there's no point in worrying further. Easier said than done, I know.

Personally, I don't see the point in bringing weapons into your home, I don't think they'll make you any safer. And hopefully, probably, you'll never need to use them.

syklops

Hobbitfeet wrote: »

Thanks Zambia, there is locks on all the doors and windows. Seem safe enough we are in rented house so it would be up to landlord to upgrade them if he wanted.
Its my 1st baby and I'm just starting to worry about crazy things like this happening. There has been some robberies where people are pretending to be from council etc to get you to open the door.

With rented properties, the number one risk is other people(than you) having the key to your home. Previous tenants, the landlord, the estate agent and who knows who else? I lived next door to a house that got wiped out of stuff just after the new tenants had moved in. Suspicion fell on the previous tenant, but there was no proof. They moved in, he moved out and one day while they were all at work someone went into their house and took laptops, cameras, TV, the lot.

I'd advise getting a locksmith out to replace the lock with a brand new one. Also get his advice on general security in the property as well.

For personal security get a decent sized hurley to wave about. In a pinch, a can of deodorant would do the same job as pepper spray, but its purchase or ownership is not illegal. Though as stated by others it buys minutes only and not much else. Also consider getting a dog. Doesn't need to be a Doberman, but most intruders will be put off by the presence of a dog. Plus, apparently, they can be beneficial, health-wise to new borns.

Corruptable

benway wrote: »

Ha, I think you'll find that it's the Daily Mail hang 'em high brigade who aren't living in the real world, much as they like to accuse anyone who disagrees with them of being out of touch. You know, people who look at verifiable facts and figures, and scientific research to form their views, rather than supposition and prejudice.

If you find an intruder in your house who seems to be set on robbing the place, you have ... and have always had ... the right to use sufficient force to subdue him/her. What more do you need?

You don't, and shouldn't have the right to kill the intruder in cold blood: “it is ridiculous to suggest that a private citizen, however outraged, may deliberately kill [a burglar] simply for being a burglar”.

What exactly are you suggesting? More laws?

I have been the victim of crime, btw, but I accept it as an isolated, relatively unusual occurrence and get on with my life. I still take every reasonable precaution, but beyond that I don't worry unduly.

I'm suggesting reform of the law which would widen the means of reasonable force available to the householder. Unlike a decade or two ago, there are now less-than-lethal weapons abundantly available which our legislation, unlike that of France and Germany, does not make account for in a home owners possession.

These items are as mentioned include non-lethal firearms such as genuine Taser Internationa Inc. products, rubber projectiles a la the Verney Carron flash ball products, and pepper spray which can be legislated for and which training and regulation standards could be provided, for those who wish to keep such items. Usual rules could be applied relating to storage in a standard gun safe, etc.

I think that if the options were available it would be something which could prevent or limit the likelihood of the occurrence of more Nally-type incidents involving lethal force. The reasonable force standards can still apply, and in fact I would argue would be more easily quantifiable given research into the effects of such items than that excecised by the metal pipe which happens to be "found" and used in the heat of the moment.

But there's a whole range of issues relating to intent and possession which would need to be reformed.

benway

Would that not lead to an arms race between home-owners and housebreakers? And increase the likelihood of heavily armed burglars being quicker to use lethal force themselves?

Do you not think that maybe a Garda-facilitated community policing initiative, like a beefed-up neighbourhood watch might be a better approach? Putting neighbours in touch with each other and encouraging them to watch each other's backs? And giving them a point of reference within the Gardaí to whom they could report any suspicious activity?

Discodog

The key to this is to only have items for self defence that have another lawful purpose. If you want pepper spray then make your own. I am sure there are directions on the net. Put it in a spray bottle & label it "barbecue seasoning".

One of the best items is a propane flame gun for weeds. They are also used for lighting fires & barbecues. They light instantly & produce a long hot flame. Someone would have to be seriously stupid to try disarming you :eek: Then there is the infamous long maglite torch - the joke has always been that you shine it in their eyes to blind them then hit them with it

The point is that if you incinerate a burglar you can at least argue that you grabbed the first thing that came to hand. It happened to be a flame gun as you bought it in to light a fire in the hearth.

I actually know an old fella who has a can of lighter fuel & a lighter next to his back door :eek: Any thief who finds himself covered in petrol is going to run.

syklops

benway wrote: »

Would that not lead to an arms race between home-owners and housebreakers? And increase the likelihood of heavily armed burglars being quicker to use lethal force themselves?

Do you not think that maybe a Garda-facilitated community policing initiative, like a beefed-up neighbourhood watch might be a better approach? Putting neighbours in touch with each other and encouraging them to watch each other's backs? And giving them a point of reference within the Gardaí to whom they could report any suspicious activity?

If the vast majority of burglars were arming themselves up to intentionally break in to houses they knew people were in, then I suppose an arms race situation could occur, but the vast majority of burglars look for empty properties and flee at the sign of anyone else.

The problem with the beefed up neighbourhood watch scheme, is when it is 1 AM and there has been a bump in the night, being able to grab your weapon of choice is a lot more comforting than holding the slip of paper with the neighbourhood watches number.

Plus NHW works great in sub-urban areas, where everyone has a picket fence and a neighbour 40 feet away. but in rural areas, they are very difficult to implement and run well.

Procrastastudy

I really don't see the logic... in fact the advice you are giving (esp to the OP a heavily pregnant woman!) is simply irresponsible. If a bugler does break in and isn't put off by the fact you're there the best thing to do is comply with their demands and get it over with as soon as possible - then claim on your insurance.

If they do break in and she (or anyone else) sprays/sets fire to them/any other of the stupid suggestions (except maybe the dog) they are as likely to lash out and injure!

You only need to look at the US to see what happens when a "frontier" mentality is combined with a sensationalist media. If you're a "big lad" and want to "have a go" more power to you but please do try and remember things and can be replaced!

Spending time on building a community and looking out for each other is much more likely to keep the bad guys away than stashing weapons about the place on the off chance you're broken into.

benway

syklops wrote: »

If the vast majority of burglars were arming themselves up to intentionally break in to houses they knew people were in, then I suppose an arms race situation could occur, but the vast majority of burglars look for empty properties and flee at the sign of anyone else.

By that rate wouldn't a burglar alarm, timed lights, a dog, neighbours checking in and such be more effective that any amount of weapons, lethal or non-lethal?

End of the day, any weapon is only useful if it's to hand, if the intruder doesn't beat you to the punch, and if you're collected enough to use it effectively.

This idea that we should all be sitting at home alone, armed to the teeth, atomised, suspicious and terrified has a definite ideological overtone to it, if you ask me.

I keep a fully loaded airsoft shotgun. Looks very realistic, and will hurt if fired at point blank range at bare skin/thin clothing. Also doubles up as a baton as the barrel is a steel pole.

Something like this.
http://www.mainirishairsoft.com/scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=957

Also keep a hammer close by for backup

Completely legal.

Edit:
Also have these on both front and read doors. http://www.maplin.co.uk/security-beam-barrier-alarm-31800

krd

benway wrote: »

If you find an intruder in your house who seems to be set on robbing the place, you have ... and have always had ... the right to use sufficient force to subdue him/her. What more do you need?

You don't, and shouldn't have the right to kill the intruder in cold blood: “it is ridiculous to suggest that a private citizen, however outraged, may deliberately kill [a burglar] simply for being a burglar”.

What is sufficient force? I do know someone, who came home early from a family get together in a pub. When they entered their house, there were two of their neighbours in the living room. One with a hurley, the other with a wrench. And they gave him a savage beating, and left him for dead. It was purely luck that none of the blows killed him. He was left with scars all over his head and face.

The kind of people who break into houses are usually violent scumbags. They've learned boxing in boxing clubs for scaldy kids - they've been thugs their whole lives. They're a lot more used to violence than the peoples houses their breaking.

What's reasonable force? There was a case years ago, where a man in Dublin chased burglars out of his house with a golf club. One of the burglars took the golf club off the man and beat him to death.

If burglars enter your house and you confront them. If you're armed you hit them as fast as possible, and as hard as possible, and you keep going until they are not moving - otherwise they'll likely take the weapon from you and beat you to death.

It's unfortunate, if subduing them means killing them. But what can you do. Are home owners meant to go on courses where they learn how to subdue burglars without killing them.

I have been the victim of crime, btw, but I accept it as an isolated, relatively unusual occurrence and get on with my life. I still take every reasonable precaution, but beyond that I don't worry unduly.

After seeing what burglars did to the guy I knew, my attitude completely changed. If someone breaks into my house, I will use the maximum violence available. Using minimum force could result in me being beaten to death or maimed for life.

Threatening these people with a golf club will do you no good. They know their violence. They'll know you're scared and will have grab the club off you and will be wearing it off your head. Don't give them a chance, beat them as hard as you can and don't stop until they stop moving. And then put a kitchen knife in one of their hands and wait for the gaurds to come.

benway

krd wrote: »

The kind of people who break into houses are usually violent scumbags. They've learned boxing in boxing clubs for scaldy kids - they've been thugs their whole lives. They're a lot more used to violence than the peoples houses their breaking.

Threatening these people with a golf club will do you no good. They know their violence. They'll know you're scared and will have grab the club off you and will be wearing it off your head.

Which is why it's probably a bad idea for people who have no idea what they're doing to attempt to take on a burglar in a physical confrontation, even if they are armed - better to tell them to take what they want and get out, or barricade yourself into a bedroom until they're gone.

Reasonable force means whatever is necessary to subdue the intruder. Anything up to and including shooting or stabbing them may be justifiable depending on the circumstances.

Point I was making is that standing over someone who's already been put down by a shotgun and unloading the second barrel into them doesn't count as reasonable force to me - some people seem to think that the new Act gives carte blanche for homeowners to kill intruders, which is not true.

Witcher

Deleted User wrote: »

I keep a fully loaded airsoft shotgun. Looks very realistic, and will hurt if fired at point blank range at bare skin/thin clothing. Also doubles up as a baton as the barrel is a steel pole.

Something like this.
http://www.mainirishairsoft.com/scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=957

Also keep a hammer close by for backup

Completely legal.

An airsoft gun for defence? Jesus christ it wouldn't even put a bruise on ya, that's from someone who has played airsoft for 4 years and has 10+ airsoft guns.

People looking to have pepper spray/stun guns/batons etc. are putting themselves in line for a conviction, if they're used on a burglar the guards aren't going to say 'ah sure grand' they're going to do you for having them when you shouldn't. If you must have something for defence at least make sure it's legal to possess, what you do with it after that is up to you.

Pkiernan

Blay wrote: »

An airsoft gun for defence? Jesus christ it wouldn't even put a bruise on ya, that's from someone who has played airsoft for 4 years and has 10+ airsoft guns.

People looking to have pepper spray/stun guns/batons etc. are putting themselves in line for a conviction, if they're used on a burglar the guards aren't going to say 'ah sure grand' they're going to do you for having them when you shouldn't. If you must have something for defence at least make sure it's legal to possess, what you do with it after that is up to you.

~I will see your stupid plastic pellet gun and raise you a

Zambia

Once upon a time I knew a guy who had a very powerful paintball gun. We fired it at a plasterboard door and it went straight through one panel.

Not in Ireland.