Is religion to blame for Europe's problems?

fitz0

paddyandy wrote: »

Fitz ; Good point but good values that are naturally in people anyway can remain in a materialistic society as long as the standard of living is high enough .When incomes drop below an acceptable level then common decency starts to evaporate and without a religious 'net' that society will have serious problems .Those societies are no more than a few decades out of poverty any way but it's a very interesting point .I really don't like comparing Ireland to other parts of the world where temperaments and attitudes are different .These are complex and volatile times unlike anything previous it's hard to have certainties .

So religion is what keeps poor people from ask out anarchy? 'Opiate of the masses' is it?

That doesn't make its claims contain any more truth.

MagicMarker

There's a new atheist charter? Oooh goody, can't I see it can I see it? Pretty please!?

robindch

MagicMarker wrote: »

There's a new atheist charter? Oooh goody, can't I see it can I see it?

Atheist charter? No, you can't see it.

It doesn't exist.

Echoes675

paddyandy wrote: »

When incomes drop below an acceptable level then common decency starts to evaporate and without a religious 'net' that society will have serious problems .

And your proof of this is??

paddyandy

As a Man once said years ago "If Religion is the Opium of the People then ...Athiesm is Opium with a belt and Braces and zimmer frame with bells and lights on it " and a copy of das kapital too maybe .One idea can be just as intoxicating as the other ...take your pick !

The Mad Hatter

paddyandy wrote: »

As a Man once said years ago "If Religion is the Opium of the People then ...Athiesm is Opium with a belt and Braces and zimmer frame with bells and lights on it " and a copy of das kapital too maybe .One idea can be just as intoxicating as the other ...take your pick !

What wit!

sensibleken

paddyandy wrote: »

As a Man once said years ago "If Religion is the Opium of the People then ...Athiesm is Opium with a belt and Braces and zimmer frame with bells and lights on it " and a copy of das kapital too maybe .One idea can be just as intoxicating as the other ...take your pick !

how the fúck is a zimmerframe intoxicating.

Or maybe do you mean atheism is more stable (zimmerframe),less embarassing (belt and braces) and more fun (bells and lights)

robindch

The Mad Hatter wrote: »

What wit!

I half agree with you.

Knasher

beerbuddy wrote: »

For example i could ask why Church going drops among the less well educated.Basically implying whether true or not that the non church going population are dumb asses. (please take with pinch of salt)

What is your source for this, most studies I've heard of indicate a negative correlation between intelligence and religiosity. Studies of scientists seem to find levels of religiosity well below their respective national averages.

On a country there also seems to be a very negative correlation between education and religiosity, nations with low educational standards seem to be extremely religious whereas high educational standards seem to lead to a progressive decrease in religiosity.

It would be very interesting to read a study which seems to go against the trend

Knasher

paddyandy wrote: »

They won't make war like the chickens might do shortly...we wait ....

Indeed, we have been watching the recent buildup of offensive abilities in chickens with a very wary eye.

Mutant Chicken grows Alligator-like Teeth

robp

Knasher wrote: »

What is your source for this, most studies I've heard of indicate a negative correlation between intelligence and religiosity. Studies of scientists seem to find levels of religiosity well below their respective national averages.

On a country there also seems to be a very negative correlation between education and religiosity, nations with low educational standards seem to be extremely religious whereas high educational standards seem to lead to a progressive decrease in religiosity.

It would be very interesting to read a study which seems to go against the trend

The trouble is the correlation is never clear and is clouded by many confounding factors. Linking religious belief and intelligence is over simplifying very complex variables and is in fact dangerous imo. For instance some studies put the correlation not to religion but willingness to adopt novel behaviours or to an 'inquiring mind'. It’s an ego reinforcing belief which is enough reason to be suspicious.

18AD

http://news.yahoo.com/low-iq-conservative-beliefs-linked-prejudice-180403506.html

Just came across this the other day. I thought it was quite a balanced assessment.

The conclusion is that obviously the evidence is only correlational.
But over a large average people with lower IQs are predisposed to holding simplistic ideas about the complexities of the world.

Not that smart people can't hold stupid ideas or that stupid people can't hold intelligent ideas. It's just an average. The same as height, where men are on average taller than women.

Controversial! :pac:

The outlaw

Peregrinus wrote: »

If you’re going to argue from correlation to causation, you’ll need to do more than point to the correlation. You’ll need to suggest how, in this instance, greater religiosity led to greater financial improvidence.

And, to get you anywhere, the argument has to be coherent and persuasive, and not too obviously silly. The suggesting that the Greek government, for example, “looked at things in a black and white way” is completely the opposite of the usual critique of the Greek government, and its attitude to fiscal matters. And the claim that the Irish government spent their cabinet meetings saying hail marys is amusing, but no substitute for things like evidence, or an argument that anyone could take seriously.

You’d also need to explain why the high religiosity of Malta and Cyprus can be discounted. Yes, they were late entrants to the eurozone, but is this a reason to exclude them? Is your thesis that religiosity only leads to fiscal imprudence if and when a country joins the eurozone? Why does it not have this effect on non-eurozone countries? Plus, Greece was also a late entrant to the eurozone. It looks suspiciously like you are including countries if they support your hypothesis, and excluding them if they don’t.

Of course religion isn't the cause of our economic problems but I'm asking does anyone think religion is in any way a factor which had created a culture which resulted in incompetence. I titled the blog in such a way to get peoples’ attention. I can't prove any possible link to religiosity and greater financial improvidence as it's far too complex -that's why I wanted peoples’ opinions. I'm discounting Cyprus and Malta, as being in the Euro zone provided countries with access to cheap, stable credit which the pigs had 6 years more than these 2 (I'm sure you'll agree an awful lot of the recklessness happened in the years 2002 -2008). Also Greece joined late in the pre-Euro phase but was part of the 12 nations that adopted the currency in 2002. I feel people took my question too literally instead of asking if religion played any role. (1 or 2 addressed the issue but perhaps others thought taking the question literally was the only option and rightly should it was silly). It’s worth noting that religious are more likely to take things more literally!

recedite

The outlaw wrote: »

I feel people took my question too literally instead of asking if religion played any role.

You can't fault people for being too accurate.
Certainly there is an element of taking on more personal responsibility when you ditch religion. There is less faith that the "authority figures" know best, or will act in your best interests. Less faith that "the system" will look after you.

You can observe a subservient mentality in the way the Irish govt. deals with the Euro bigwigs at the moment, similar to that of a peasant approaching a priest. There is a "faith" that "the system" will make everything alright in the end, if only we do exactly as we are told.
In reality though, the system is already working very well to benefit those who designed it.

Galvasean

robp wrote: »

For instance some studies put the correlation not to religion but willingness to adopt novel behaviours or to an 'inquiring mind'.

When opening one's mind one must make sure not to let their brain fall out.

paddyandy

People went into banks to borrow money not churches and the secular subservient mentality was easily observed in the stampede to get those loans and the ever present need to blame others for their own excesses . The Big Advertising Machine has'nt been mentioned at all .The TV set has not been blamed either .I am not a christian btw. I observe the secular servile mentality all the time on Grafton Street .Displaying their " we have money" banners on their shopping bags and preening themselves in the shop reflections as they walk past . Are people themselves not to blame .??????

sensibleken

paddyandy wrote: »

People went into banks to borrow money not churches and the secular subservient mentality was easily observed in the stampede to get those loans and the ever present need to blame others for their own excesses . The Big Advertising Machine has'nt been mentioned at all .The TV set has not been blamed either .I am not a christian btw. I observe the secular servile mentality all the time on Grafton Street .Displaying their " we have money" banners on their shopping bags and preening themselves in the shop reflections as they walk past . Are people themselves not to blame .??????

balance it out by walking down talbot street

Peregrinus

recedite wrote: »

Certainly there is an element of taking on more personal responsibility when you ditch religion. There is less faith that the "authority figures" know best, or will act in your best interests. Less faith that "the system" will look after you.

You can observe a subservient mentality in the way the Irish govt. deals with the Euro bigwigs at the moment, similar to that of a peasant approaching a priest. There is a "faith" that "the system" will make everything alright in the end, if only we do exactly as we are told.

A common trope to explain the relative poverty in Ireland in the 1940s, 1950s and 1960s was that the Irish were priest-ridden, distracted by religiosity, etc, by comparison with the more Protestant but also more secular UK.

However we have to concede that the current bust comes at a time when religiosity, and the status of religion, had reached an all-time low in Ireland. And I think a good case could be made that, from being caused by Ireland’s religiosity, it was caused, at least in part, by the materialist and consumerist values and attitudes with which we replaced religiosity.

The “peasant mentality” is an interesting angle, and there may be mileage in that. Again, in the past, the assumption was that Ireland’s peasant mentality was an outworking of its religiosity. But the fact that we abandoned the religiosity while maintaining the peasantry suggests another possilbility; that the Irish embraced Catholicism, or a particularly paternal form of Catholicism, precisely because it fitted well with a cultural predisposition.

Perhaps what the present situation shows is that it is, in fact, perfectly possible to ditch religion without taking on more personal responsibility.

beerbuddy

Knasher wrote: »

What is your source for this, most studies I've heard of indicate a negative correlation between intelligence and religiosity. Studies of scientists seem to find levels of religiosity well below their respective national averages.

On a country there also seems to be a very negative correlation between education and religiosity, nations with low educational standards seem to be extremely religious whereas high educational standards seem to lead to a progressive decrease in religiosity.

It would be very interesting to read a study which seems to go against the trend

You have been reading Dawkins to much check out this

http://epiphenom.fieldofscience.com/2009/04/educating-peter-how-education-increases.html

Quite intresting also google it there is loads of Information

Galvasean

^^ That link really doesn't support your case a whole lot.

Solair

Well, in Ireland's case, only if you consider unregulated capitalism / Reaganism / Thatcherism a religious philosophy.

Also, to be perfectly honest the "PIGS" (I hate that term) have about as much in common with each other as they do with Germany or France.

Ireland - Enormous banking crisis and aftermath of huge property bubble and associated public spending inflation built on the back of it boom-time tax revenues. However, it has very few other issues and remains one of the most productive countries in the EU. Extremely expensive bank bailouts and sudden spike in unemployment causing very serious fiscal imbalances (tax down, social security up). Has a cushion of having had astronomically fast growth over the previous 15 years.

Political : One of Europe's oldest and most stable continuous democracies. It's easy to forget that Ireland was a parliamentary democracy, even before independence and was never a dictatorship. So, easily one of the oldest continuous democracies in the world. The current Republic has been around in various guises since 1921. Most of Europe lost democracy during WWII, while Ireland didn't. - No riots during crisis.

Social : Young and very liberal during the crisis period, with overhangs from previous conservative eras.

Spain (and to a large degree also Portugal) - Property bubble and banking crisis coupled with very serious underlying structural problems in terms of lack of labour market flexibility and relatively low productivity rates which were masked by a building boom. Also, huge unemployment caused by loss of manufacturing industries. A historical educational deficit due to recent history of dictatorship. Sudden ENORMOUS spike in unemployment (>23%) causing very serious fiscal imbalances (tax down, social security up). Both countries had high levels of real growth too over the last couple of decades and Spain in particular has spent money very wisely on excellent infrastructure.

Political : Dictatorships until the 1970s, seem to have healthy and sensible democracies with lots of engagement - No riots.

Social: Spain is one of the most liberal countries in Europe on many social issues e.g. it has some of the most evolved gay rights laws in the world. Some overhangs to previous conservative eras, but not many.

Greece - Massive state overspending with little or no underlying economic activity to back it up. Historically, very poor internal fiscal management and huge military and other public spending. Very poor revenue collection systems etc etc. Basically, was running on credit card for the last while. Inability to moderise economy and huge dependence on tourism.

Political: Dictatorship until the mid 1970s - Relatively poor engagement with the system and lots of riots and violence.

Social: Not very liberal by modern Western European standards.

So, really to be quite honest I don't know how you can even remotely generalise about these countries other than to say they all have a debt problem and are in the Euro.

beerbuddy

Galvasean wrote: »

^^ That link really doesn't support your case a whole lot.

I know its a whole other animal but i found it intresting

beerbuddy

Knasher wrote: »

What is your source for this, most studies I've heard of indicate a negative correlation between intelligence and religiosity. Studies of scientists seem to find levels of religiosity well below their respective national averages.

On a country there also seems to be a very negative correlation between education and religiosity, nations with low educational standards seem to be extremely religious whereas high educational standards seem to lead to a progressive decrease in religiosity.

It would be very interesting to read a study which seems to go against the trend

I would like to see where you get your information from to.
Please dont quote dawkins

robindch

beerbuddy wrote: »

I would like to see where you get your information from to.

Have a read of the following:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religiosity_and_intelligence

recedite

robindch wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religiosity_and_intelligence

Can you summarise that please? There are a lot of big words in it.

beerbuddy

robindch wrote: »

Have a read of the following:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religiosity_and_intelligence

great very intresting and i would tend to agree with it