Apples chinese work policy

Maximus Alexander

partyatmygaff wrote: »

In what context is buying a poorer product for more money better?

The context where you need it to be pretty!! :pac:

conor.hogan.2

All grey aluminum is hardly pretty. But then again I am not one for aesthetics when it comes to objects.

At the end of the day thats what the dell and the mbp are, just computers to get the job done. Preferably with less hassle, weight and better battery.

partyatmygaff

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

If I do not need IPS, 3 hdd or 32gb of ram then does it matter if the dell can have all those things?
If not then they cost the same price or within 50-60 euro if you buy ram elsewhere.

I do not know when I, or the majority of people, would need more than 16gb of ram or 2 hdd in daily use.

Most people who spend €3000+ on a laptop are looking for performance and a high quality product. Your average "I browse Facebook from time to time" computer user isn't who Apple are targetting with the MBP 17 and it certainly isn't who Dell are targetting with the Precision M6600. They're targeting users looking for the best performing laptop available regardless of the price.

conor.hogan.2

partyatmygaff wrote: »

Most people who spend €3000+ on a laptop are looking for performance and a high quality product. Your average "I browse Facebook from time to time" computer user isn't who Apple are targetting with the MBP 17 and it certainly isn't who Dell are targetting with the Precision M6600. They're targeting users looking for the best performing laptop available regardless of the price.

It depends on what you want from the high end machine.
I know lots of programmers who have mbp of varying sizes and would not pick the dell even though it has several more options available included for the same price.

Same with video editors and a few other niches, granted smaller than the business market.

But of course if you need 32gb of ram or 3 hdd or an IPS display then it is clearly the wrong choice much like the dell would be the wrong choice for any iOS or mac development.

Also the 17" is 2540 not 3000+ - you never upgrade a machine through Apple. Their peripheries and extras are overpriced.

Freddie59

cloptrop wrote: »

Does owning apple stuff now make you a heartless tosser?

Does not owning it make you a little envious?:)

conor.hogan.2

Freddie59 wrote: »

Does not owning it make you a little envious?:)

It seems to want to make you go out of the way to prove how others are "stupid" for paying "more" for a machine because you did not pay more and got a "better" machine.

It is a pass to be condescending it seems.

Freddie59

partyatmygaff wrote: »

Hmm... they're not far off in terms of cost but in terms of quality and performance Windows laptops are still better value even when it comes to the very top end.

Take the base spec of the mid-range M6600 and a MBP 17 with upgrades to bring it up to the base spec of the M6600.

Laptop | Apple MBP 17 | Dell M6600
CPU | i7-2740QM | i7-2740QM
RAM | 8GB DDR 3 | 8GB DDR3
HDD | 750GB 7200RPM | 750GB 7200RPM
GPU | ATI HD6770M 1GB | Nvidia Quadro 3000M 2GB
LCD | 1920 x 1200 | 1920 x 1080
Warranty | 3 years collect and return | 3 years next business day onsite
Price | €3193 (Inc. Vat) | €2557 (Inc. Vat)


Considering the Dell is cheaper, has a more powerful GPU, is better built with better support and isn't even nearly maxed out (Whereas the MBP 17 I quoted is more or less top spec) i'd have to say the Dell is the better laptop here. If you used that €636 change to upgrade to say 16GB RAM, a better CPU, a Quadro 4000M, an SSD or an IPS screen it would annilhate the MBP 17.

But in three years time I'd like to see the condition both will be in. As an owner of both Dell PCs and (currently) an iMac, there is no comparison in the build quality. At all.

partyatmygaff

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

It depends on what you want from the high end machine. I know lots of programmers who have mbp of varying sizes and would not pick the dell even though it has several more options available included for the same price.

iOS/Mac programmers?

Objectively speaking and taking software out of the equation, of the two laptops I mentioned in this thread (MBP 17 and M6600) which laptop is better?

For the record, it's not "several more options included for the same price" it's "several more options included for €650 less"

But of course if you need 32gb of ram or 3 hdd or an IPS display then it is clearly the wrong choice much like the dell would be the wrong choice for any iOS or mac development.

But why would I buy a Macbook Pro 17 for €3000+ when I can get a far better Dell for €2600? Why should I pay €650 extra for a huge list of compromises and the sole advantage of being given the green light by Apple to create apps for iOS?

Local-womanizer

I couldn't give a toss what phone or laptop someone has.

If I did, I would take a serious look at my life tbh.

If someone has a Android phone, so fecking what. It in no way has any effect on my life.

When I buy a product I am not looking over my shoulder to see if anyone is watching waiting to laugh at me and call me a "fanboi" and a "saddo".

If I like something I will buy it. Simple.

Trying to mask your hatred of a company behind the tragic suffering of people is sick too.

posted from an Iphone 4 :pac:

conor.hogan.2

You can not ignore software.
Also as stated the build quality and longevity of the two is not comparable.

Software is what you use daily, the hardware merely facilitates that mostly.

But if you go on pure specs then yes the Dell gets you more for your money - and you can misqoute me on that - but it does not mean it is better value or you paid to much for the MBP.

The 17" MBP is 2540 euro. You do not upgrade through Apple, you clearly never bought an Apple machine and know little about them.
Factor in money for the ram from crucial and the MBP is slightly more expensive for less extendability that very few people would ever use even high end users.

partyatmygaff

Freddie59 wrote: »

But in three years time I'd like to see the condition both will be in. As an owner of both Dell PCs and (currently) an iMac, there is no comparison in the build quality. At all.

*facepalm*

Why do Apple fans do this all the time? Why can you guys not just accept that comparing a vaguely defined "Dell" to an iMac is completely disingenuous?

Having experience of both laptops, I can safely say the Macbook Pro 17 (Although quite good) is nowhere near as well built as the M6600. This isn't even remotely related as the shiny €500 Inspirons you find in Argos and PC World.

conor.hogan.2

Why do you feel the need to prove we have all been duped somehow and are idiots and have paid more for less?

We know exactly what we paid for.

partyatmygaff

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

You can not ignore software.
Also as stated the build quality and longevity of the two is not comparable.

I guess that explains why Apple support the MBP 17 for a maximum of 3 years whereas Dell support the M6600 for up to 5 years.

Software is what you use daily, the hardware merely facilitates that mostly.

Ok. Is running OS X on an inferior laptop that you paid more money for a better experience than running Windows 7 on a superior laptop you paid less money for?

But if you go on pure specs then yes the Dell gets you more for your money - and you can misqoute me on that - but it does not mean it is better value or you paid to much for the MBP.

Objectively speaking, it's better value and a better laptop all around. The only thing the Mac has over the M6600 is OS X which for some is more of a disadvantage than an advantage.

The 17" MBP is 2540 euro. You do not upgrade through Apple, you clearly never bought an Apple machine and know little about them.

You must have missed my earlier posts. I only believe in fair comparisons. I gave you the price of an M6600 with all factory installed components and the price of a MBP 17 with all factory installed components.

As for me not buying an Apple machine, no I haven't and I doubt I will unless Apple make significant changes.

Factor in money for the ram from crucial and the MBP is slightly more expensive for less extendability that very few people would ever use even high end users.

Why should you pay more and have to make compromises to add insult to injury?

partyatmygaff

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

Why do you feel the need to prove we have all been duped somehow and are idiots and have paid more for less?

We know exactly what we paid for.

I'm not. If you make iOS applications, need OS X for some obscure reason or just like the styling of the Macbook Pro then be my guest. It's a good laptop but you can do so much better for the same money.

The only problem I have is with people who go around claiming their Macbook is the world's best laptop and make dishonest comparisons to try and make it seem that it beats every single Windows laptop on the market.

conor.hogan.2

Well I do not like when people claim that one Dell is better than than one MBP for all people.

partyatmygaff

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

Well I do not like when people claim that one Dell is better than than one MBP for all people.

Allow me to correct myself.

A Dell M6600 is better than a Macbook Pro 17 for all people barring iOS/Mac developers who are being forced to use OS X, Apple/OSX fans or combinations thereof.

Better? :P

conor.hogan.2

partyatmygaff wrote: »

Allow me to correct myself.

A Dell M6600 is better than a Macbook Pro 17 for all people barring iOS/Mac developers who are being forced to use OS X, Apple/OSX fans or combinations thereof.

Better? :P

Also if you need 32gb of ram, 3 hdd and an IPS display.
Then yes, that would be factually correct ignoring all software.

Basically you can not make blanket statements that one is better than the other.

Plus I am sure I could find a better Asus or Acer than that Dell for the same or less money.

Or on the flip side you would be hard pressed to find a better laptop than a base MBP when factoring in the software and build quality.

partyatmygaff

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

Also if you need 32gb of ram, 3 hdd and an IPS display.
Then yes, that would be factually correct ignoring all software.

Basically you can not make blanket statements that one is better than the other.

I'm afraid I just did. Unless you can explain why anyone but an OS X fan or iOS developer would buy a MBP 17 for €650 more than a better laptop it remains valid as far as i'm concerned.

Plus I am sure I could find a better Asus or Acer than that Dell for the same or less money.

I'm certain you can't. Neither ASUS nor Acer currently sell a laptop of the same class as the M6600.

Or on the flip side you would be hard pressed to find a better laptop than a base MBP when factoring in the software and build quality.

Didn't I just do that moments ago?

Freddie59

partyatmygaff wrote: »

*facepalm*

Why do Apple fans do this all the time? Why can you guys not just accept that comparing a vaguely defined "Dell" to an iMac is completely disingenuous?

Having experience of both laptops, I can safely say the Macbook Pro 17 (Although quite good) is nowhere near as well built as the M6600. This isn't even remotely related as the shiny €500 Inspirons you find in Argos and PC World.

Far from a 'fan'. I stated that I have BOTH PC and Mac.

TheZohanS

Freddie59 wrote: »

Far from a 'fan'. I stated that I have BOTH PC and Mac.

Ohhhh, no recession there!

IBM/Lenova T series ThinkPad.

That is all.

swingking

partyatmygaff wrote: »

I'm certain you can't. Neither ASUS nor Acer currently sell a laptop of the same class as the M6600.

Sorry, do you sell this laptop? Because it sounds like you want to have its babies

partyatmygaff

swingking wrote: »

Sorry, do you sell this laptop? Because it sounds like you want to have its babies

What is it illegal for me to prefer a laptop but perfectly alright for others to write posts about how much they love their Macbooks?

It's just an example. If you prefer, I could replace M6600 with W520 or Elitebook 8760 and my point would probably still stand. I'm only using Dell because they're the brand most people would be familiar with.

ofcork

Sindri wrote: »

Most products are made from all over the world.

The iphone had pieces made in like 6 different countries, or more, so get over it.

A lot of people who buy iphones or any other devices for that matter dont realise they are built by sub contracted manufacturers and not by the company itself.

TheZohanS

This thread is like a marketers wet dream...they've managed to turn consumer electronics into something tribal, for shame.

conor.hogan.2

The 17" MBP is not a base MBP.

Anyway as I have said you can not make blanket claims.

Also have you check comparison reviews of the dell precision m6600 and the i7 17" MBP?
Even on such pro Apple sites as pcworld. It is not as black and white as the specs dictate.

swingking

partyatmygaff wrote: »

What is it illegal for me to prefer a laptop but perfectly alright for others to write posts about how much they love their Macbooks?

It's just an example. If you prefer, I could replace M6600 with W520 or Elitebook 8760 and my point would probably still stand. I'm only using Dell because they're the brand most people would be familiar with.

Let them enjoy their purchase. What harm are they doing you ? I detect a certain level of insecurity. I've no problem if you like your computer if it's what suits you.

irishdude11

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

The 17" MBP is not a base MBP.

Anyway as I have said you can not make blanket claims.

Also have you check comparison reviews of the dell precision m6600 and the i7 17" MBP?
Even on such pro Apple sites as pcworld. It is not as black and white as the specs dictate.

Apple laptops = higher cost for worse spec. And while there might have been some validity to complaints about windows xp (reduced performance over time necessitating formatting and reinstalling), windows 7 is a top notch operating system so there is no points to be gained for apple there. Operating systems are so good these days that they are basically transparent - you dont notice them because they dont crash/give hassle. So it comes down to the software and Windows 7 runs everything, whereas if you go the mac route you are limited to software that has a 'mac version'.

Why on earth would anyone pay a massive premium for a machine with a worse spec that cant run as wide a range of applications?

partyatmygaff

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

The 17" MBP is not a base MBP.

Eh, yes it is.

Anyway as I have said you can not make blanket claims.

I'm not making blanket claims. Most people want the best their money can buy. For the vast majority of people barring those I excluded (iOS devs, Apple/OS X fans) the M6600 would be the better laptop.

Also have you check comparison reviews of the dell precision m6600 and the i7 17" MBP?

Yes. The most comprehensive review site I know of (Notebookcheck.com) rated the M6600 higher than the MBP 17. That's good enough for me.

Even on such pro Apple sites as pcworld. It is not as black and white as the specs dictate.

The specs are more or less the exact same in those two laptops I mentioned barring a better GPU in the M6600. The main difference is in build quality, longevity and upgrade potential.

swingking wrote: »

Let them enjoy their purchase. What harm are they doing you ?

How am I not letting them enjoy their purchase? If someone says "My Macbook is better than X, Y and Z", am I not allowed to post a rebuttal?

I detect a certain level of insecurity. I've no problem if you like your computer if it's what suits you.

No you don't. You're just looking for something biting to say. What the bloody hell does insecurity have to do with a discussion about Apple's range of laptops?

Freddie59

TheZohan wrote: »

Ohhhh, no recession there!

IBM/Lenova T series ThinkPad.

That is all.

In fairness the PC is four years old!!:o:D

Freddie59

irishdude11 wrote: »

Apple laptops = higher cost for worse spec. And while there might have been some validity to complaints about windows xp (reduced performance over time necessitating formatting and reinstalling), windows 7 is a top notch operating system so there is no points to be gained for apple there. Operating systems are so good these days that they are basically transparent - you dont notice them because they dont crash/give hassle. So it comes down to the software and Windows 7 runs everything, whereas if you go the mac route you are limited to software that has a 'mac version'.

Why on earth would anyone pay a massive premium for a machine with a worse spec that cant run as wide a range of applications?

I'm running W7 64x on a Mac through Parallels. It's ****e compared to OSx. Really ****e.

partyatmygaff

Freddie59 wrote: »

I'm running W7 64x on a Mac through Parallels. It's ****e compared to OSx. Really ****e.

Top notch critique right there.

Freddie59

partyatmygaff wrote: »

Top notch critique right there.

My humble apologies if it offends you.:) Reality bites.

partyatmygaff

Freddie59 wrote: »

My humble apologies if it offends you.:) Reality bites.

The low standard of your critique doesn't offend me at all. It's amusing more than anything.

aidan_walsh

Man, thank **** we're all paying attention to the really important part of the story here. Things are bound to change quickly now.

Lanaier

I think I'm gaining some valuable insight into the mind of a fanboy by reading this thread

As for the treatment of workers, how is that treatment exactly?
We know that people are killing themselves, can we specifically blame the working conditions?

conor.hogan.2

I have no problems with windows xp or 7, fine operating systems.

KeithM89_old

As predicted, the thread has turned into a Mac Vs PC debate, which isnt what the thread was about. Take it to the Tech Forum to continue that endless debate.