Where to train? Big 4 or small firm?

littlemiss123

I'm looking for a bit of advice regarding accounting training contracts. I am due to graduate this year with a degree in accountancy and have been offered a job in the big 4 consulting, but also in a small firm with approx 40 employees. The small firm is offering the same study leave and roughly same pay as the big 4 so I am completely undecided. I have heard all the horror stories from the big 4 and was told by one person that they regret ever doing it and would never go back. My main concern is that not having big 4 training on my CV would seriously hamper me in the long run when looking for other jobs. As I am not dead set on which department I am interested in, I thought being in a smaller firm would give me more exposure to the role of an accountant as a whole and not pigeon hole me? I'm don't want to be a sheep and just follow the crowd but maybe there is a reason that big 4 is the route everyone takes.....

Any opinions from people having trained in a big/small firm would be much appreciated!!

Thanks

ted2767

littlemiss123 wrote: »

I'm looking for a bit of advice regarding accounting training contracts. I am due to graduate this year with a degree in accountancy and have been offered a job in the big 4 consulting, but also in a small firm with approx 40 employees. The small firm is offering the same study leave and roughly same pay as the big 4 so I am completely undecided. I have heard all the horror stories from the big 4 and was told by one person that they regret ever doing it and would never go back. My main concern is that not having big 4 training on my CV would seriously hamper me in the long run when looking for other jobs. As I am not dead set on which department I am interested in, I thought being in a smaller firm would give me more exposure to the role of an accountant as a whole and not pigeon hole me? I'm don't want to be a sheep and just follow the crowd but maybe there is a reason that big 4 is the route everyone takes.....

Any opinions from people having trained in a big/small firm would be much appreciated!!

Thanks

Were I you I'd take big 4 any time.
It'll open up many more doors than training in a small firm.
Also smaller firms are also very reliant on audit fees so you might be just as pigeon holed in a small firm also.

cson

Is it genuine Big 4 Consulting/Advisory?

If it is then jump on it. Those positions are as rare as hens teeth; PwC who are the largest professional services firm in the country only recruited 20 in total into the Advisory service line in 2010 as far as I'm aware.

You are either an outstanding candidate academically with impressive extra curriculars or else have significant pull from somewhere to land one of those positions.

littlemiss123

cson wrote: »

Is it genuine Big 4 Consulting/Advisory?

If it is then jump on it. Those positions are as rare as hens teeth; PwC who are the largest professional services firm in the country only recruited 20 in total into the Advisory service line in 2010 as far as I'm aware.

You are either an outstanding candidate academically with impressive extra curriculars or else have significant pull from somewhere to land one of those positions.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by 'genuine big 4 consulting/advisory' but the offer I have is from one of the big 4 in restructuring if that helps?

Don't think I'm a particularly outstanding candidate but I'll take the compliment all the same I didn't realise they were so rare. Maybe all the horror stories I'm hearing are ex-auditing and the same doesn't really apply to consulting?

Does it matter that I don't see myself working in a big firm in the long run...?

littlemiss123

cson wrote: »

You are either an outstanding candidate academically with impressive extra curriculars or else have significant pull from somewhere to land one of those positions.

Would also just like to make it clear that I did not secure the position with a brown envelope.....:D I have no contacts whatsoever in any of the big 4, or the accountancy profession for that matter!

cson

Restructuring is a form of Advisory/Consulting but outside of KPMG the others aren't as prominent. Some of the medium and smaller firms have carved themselves a nice position in the restructuring market; Grant Thornton, Kavanagh Fennell for example.

I find it surprising that you got a position in that area as you don't seem to have too much knowledge of it. But that's neither here nor there.

Its quite a specialised area so I'm not sure its ideal if you just intend using it as a means to an end. That said you'll acquire some very handy skills in the course of that job so its not a negative per se.

And yes it is considered to be one of the 'softer' avenues to a chartered qualification.

Alan Shore

Don't know about others but I would not consider a practice with 40 staff to be small more like medium.

ted2767 wrote: »

Also smaller firms are also very reliant on audit fees so you might be just as pigeon holed in a small firm also.

I would have thought that with the audit exemption, the number of audits that smaller firms were doing would only be a small % of the portfolio.

OP it really is down to where you want to end up. If you want a varied education in accounts prep. income and corporation tax VAT PAYE/PRSI RCT Company Secretarial ect than a small practice will give you that.

If you want to have a Big 4 on your CV then you will work in a division for the duration of your training and you will be expert in a particular area. Eg your auditor friends spent perhaps 4 years on the audit of very large companies being sent around the county at different times of the year.

I'm not saying anything about either, my partner trained in a Big 4 and achieved what she wanted and I trained in a small practice and I achieved what I wanted. She is an expert in her area and I have a reasonable knowledge of most areas.

littlemiss123

Alan Shore wrote: »

Don't know about others but I would not consider a practice with 40 staff to be small more like medium.

Personally I would have considered it a medium practice too but they referred to themselves as a small firm so I'll just go with that.

Alan Shore wrote: »

I'm not saying anything about either, my partner trained in a Big 4 and achieved what she wanted and I trained in a small practice and I achieved what I wanted. She is an expert in her area and I have a reasonable knowledge of most areas.

Just out of interest...do you or your partner have any regrets about the training route you took or would you have done anything differently? And if you are not still working for your training firm, how did you find job hunting without the big 4 on your CV?

Thanks for the opinion...very interesting

cson wrote: »

I find it surprising that you got a position in that area as you don't seem to have too much knowledge of it. But that's neither here nor there.

Its quite a specialised area so I'm not sure its ideal if you just intend using it as a means to an end. That said you'll acquire some very handy skills in the course of that job so its not a negative per se.

The only knowledge I have about it is from talking to current employees, as is hard to know the true ins and outs of a job without doing it! I am slightly worried about it being too specialised but I suppose there is always a way of adapting the skills learnt.

Umaro

cson wrote: »

Is it genuine Big 4 Consulting/Advisory?

If it is then jump on it. Those positions are as rare as hens teeth; PwC who are the largest professional services firm in the country only recruited 20 in total into the Advisory service line in 2010 as far as I'm aware.

You are either an outstanding candidate academically with impressive extra curriculars or else have significant pull from somewhere to land one of those positions.

I'm one of the 20 you refer to here, this is the first I've read about us being such a prestigious line of service, I think I may have to ask for a raise now(!)

My advice for OP: Don't base your decision on what others perceived value of the Big 4 offer is. You need to think what your end goals would be when you finish training, and what field you would like to work in. The fact that a bunch of people want something, or the fact that places are limited, shouldn't be misconstrued as the position being a pathway to you being happy in your job.

Best of luck with your decision, and congrats on your offer.

cson

Not so much prestigious as a case of supply and demand. One far outstrips the other.

EveT

where do you see yourself ending up? I think thats a big Q to ask! where do you want to work beyond qualifying? big practice/specialised route or go into industry? small firm? think about where you want to be at the end, might help your decision!

killiank

I personally selected to train in a medium sized firm in dublin having been offered a place in 2 of the big 4. Money was a lot lower but I took advice from my father (who is in the institute also but doesnt actually work as an accountant) who suggested to go the small/medium rioute. As it happens my wife is also in the institute having qualified through a big 4 company. I would be of the opinion that I got a lot more experience working outside the big 4 than she did but at the same time she can put a lot of larger organisations on her CV to say that she worked on the Audits. What more important well I guess thats for you to decide.

littlemiss123

EveT wrote: »

where do you see yourself ending up? I think thats a big Q to ask! where do you want to work beyond qualifying? big practice/specialised route or go into industry? small firm? think about where you want to be at the end, might help your decision!

Personally, I do see myself working in a small firm in the long run and being an 'accountant' in the traditional sense....working with small businesses and the self-employed and seeing a job through right from beginning to end. Having previously undertaken work experience in a large industry firm, while I had a great time, I felt what I learnt would not be adaptable to any other work environment and I very much felt like a tiny cog in the big wheel...it was hard to see how my work was any contribution.

So maybe I've answered my own question?!

killiank wrote: »

I personally selected to train in a medium sized firm in dublin having been offered a place in 2 of the big 4....I would be of the opinion that I got a lot more experience working outside the big 4 than she did but at the same time she can put a lot of larger organisations on her CV to say that she worked on the Audits.

killiank...Do you have any regrets choosing to train in a smaller firm than big 4 or do you feel it has hampered you in any way looking for further employment? I suppose what is worrying me most now that I have been scare-mongered into believing my career as an accountant will be redundant if I don't train in the big 4

killiank

No I have no regrets whatsoever. (That said I set up my own business once I had qualified & dont work as an accountant anymore) For me it was about getting access to as many different companies as I could. You worked on a new client every few weeks whereas in bigger company you could be on the same job for months & months & only looking at one aspect of it. In the smaller practice you take the job from start to finish & get exposed to all aspects of accounts much earlier on in your contract. You may also get some tax & company secretarial experience as I did during my contract. Some of the trainess that I worked with ended up working for companies they had auditted after they had qualifed.

If you are planning to work as an accountant in a company in my opinion you will get better experience working in a smaller practice. I mentioned my dad being an accountant also & his company was auditted by one of the big 4. He ran quite a large organisation & would always say he felt the trainess that came in to do his audit lacked basic double entry & understanding of how everything comes together.