Sugar Ray Robinson vs Roy Jones Junior at 168lbs

tryingmybestt

robinson v jones at super middleweight

who wins??

cowzerp

Great fight and 2 of the best ever but I'm going to give this to Sugar Ray, it's hard to realise how ahead of his time and I think his power is the difference in this fight.

walshb

cowzerp wrote: »

Great fight and 2 of the best ever but I'm going to give this to Sugar Ray, it's hard to realise how ahead of his time and I think his power is the difference in this fight.

Me too. I think he finds a way to upset Jones' confortable rhythm. He can fight in more ways. Is as tall, as rangey and as heavy handed too. As fast, more vicious, took a helluva shot, and threw more varied power shots. Could fight at any angle, at any pace, and could do it for 12-15 rds solid. Different breed.

tryingmybestt

if it's at 160lbs of below i'd give the edge to sugar but at 168lbs i'd be leaning towards jones

sugar was a small middleweight...usually weighing in much lighter than the 160lbs limit....

jones was a monster at SMW probably weighing at least 180lbs on the night while sugar ray would struggle to be 160lbs during his peak

i'g give a decisive edge in power to jones at 168lbs....also at 168lbs i'd give an edge in speed to jones...

jones' reflexes were second to none during his peak....his feet were extremely fast and nimble and his chin was always excellent during his peak...

great fight, nip and tuck but i'd give the edge to jones

tryingmybestt

actually come fight time i'd say jones would be at least 185 lbs....he would be 180 lbs when fighting at middleweight

walshb

tryingmybestt wrote: »

actually come fight time i'd say jones would be at least 185 lbs....he would be 180 lbs when fighting at middleweight

Same day weigh in for both I assume?

Or previous day weigh in for both?

Or, previous day weigh in for Roy, same day for Sugar?

tryingmybestt

walshb wrote: »

Same day weigh in for both I assume?

Or previous day weigh in for both?

Or, previous day weigh in for Roy, same day for Sugar?

same weigh rules for both boxers otherwise it's hardley fair is it

jones was much bigger.....regardless of the weigh in rules during his peak sugar failed to even weigh 160lbs as a middleweight.....jones weighed 180lbs on fight night during hopkins at MW

Jones is at least a stone naturally bigger

he hits much harder at 168lbs and is faster.....i just can't see sugar overcoming those obstacles when he's up agsint someone as good and skillful as jones

walshb

Ray almost beat a legit LHW in Maxim. Maxim was a very good fighter.

Both are trouble for each other. ten fight series, 7-3 SRR.

I am not sold on the whole "gain a load of weight" means advantage. It can also slow one down, it is possible. I do not see it being a major advantage to Roy if he somehow is heavier on fight night.

tryingmybestt

walshb wrote: »

Ray almost beat a legit LHW in Maxim. Maxim was a very good fighter.

Both are trouble for each other. ten fight series, 7-3 SRR.

I am not sold on the whole "gain a load of weight" means advantage. It can also slow one down, it is possible. I do not see it being a major advantage to Roy if he somehow is heavier on fight night.

ray fighting joey maxim at LHW doesn't go against my point of the weight difference.....he din't even weigh the MW limit....he was 157.5 lbs at weigh in.....

i think on evidence of his fights the weight gain at 168lbs for jones didnt slow him down....he dominated a fellow great in toney and stopped everyone else....he maintained excellent speed and power so i think that it disproves that argument

terrymccarthy05

Ali said that Sugar Ray was the best of all time

walshb

tryingmybestt wrote: »

i think on evidence of his fights the weight gain at 168lbs for jones didnt slow him down....he dominated a fellow great in toney and stopped everyone else....he maintained excellent speed and power so i think that it disproves that argument

That is a good point. Jones anyway always looked healthy, ripped, and fast on fight night no matter what he weighed.

walshb

terrymccarthy05 wrote: »

Ali said that Sugar Ray was the best of all time

What did he say about Roy?;)

walshb

tryingmybestt wrote: »

ray fighting joey maxim at LHW doesn't go against my point of the weight difference.....he din't even weigh the MW limit....he was 157.5 lbs at weigh in.....

Yes, and one could say that even giving away 16 lbs to Maxim that night he still was so so competitive. Hence why I don't think SRR loses this based on Roy being a few lbs heavier. Roy and him weigh on the same day, Roy at 168, SRR at whatever, come fight night, even if Roy has a fw lbs on him, SRR can still be too good.

When SRR and Maxim fought, Maxim could have been 178-180 lbs on the night of the fight. SRR probably 162-163 lbs.

tryingmybestt

walshb wrote: »

Yes, and one could say that even giving away 16 lbs to Maxim that night he still was so so competitive. Hence why I don't think SRR loses this based on Roy being a few lbs heavier. Roy and him weigh on the same day, Roy at 168, SRR at whatever, come fight night, even if Roy has a fw lbs on him, SRR can still be too good.

When SRR and Maxim fought, Maxim could have been 178-180 lbs on the night of the fight. SRR probably 162-163 lbs.

so you think the fact that ray lost to joey maxim proves he could beat roy? maxim had no power, was average at best and nowhere near as good as roy

do you feel maxim is comparable to roy?

if they both weigh in the day before ray will be around 157-160 lbs fight time....roy will be about 185lbs......roy had dynamite in his hands....A1 speed......comparing maxim to roy jones isn't correct IMO

Do I need to reiterate that ray lost to Maxim stopped ray so i dont see how this proves in anyway that ray beats jones at a similar weight disparity!

walshb

tryingmybestt wrote: »

so you think the fact that ray lost to joey maxim proves he could beat roy? maxim had no power, was average at best and nowhere near as good as roy

do you feel maxim is comparable to roy?

if they both weigh in the day before ray will be around 157-160 lbs fight time....roy will be about 185lbs......roy had dynamite in his hands....A1 speed......comparing maxim to roy jones isn't correct IMO

Do I need to reiterate that ray lost to Maxim stopped ray so i dont see how this proves in anyway that ray beats jones at a similar weight disparity!

You seem hung up on Roy being heavier, and that somehow gets him the win.

You don't need to reiterate that Ray lost to Maxim. I know this. Said it too.

tryingmybestt

walshb wrote: »

You seem hung up on Roy being heavier, and that somehow gets him the win.

You don't need to reiterate that Ray lost to Maxim. I know this. Said it too.

i was responding to your point that because ray lost to maxim then that shows he can beat roy at 168lbs

roy weighing 15-20lbs is significant

also his edge in power, speed at 168 is significant

i reiterated the point that ray lost to maxim to highlight that your point doesnt make sense.....maxim had little power and cannot be compared to jones so theres no basis for your point that because ray was stopped by maxim that shows ray would beat jones at 168lbs

walshb

One () will suffice.

tryingmybestt

walshb wrote: »

One () will suffice.

i see you've been busy editing your posts again....backtracking as usual :rolleyes:

walshb

Stalker.

Your rep here for such a short time is not all that good. Pity!

Again, edits for spelling. You need to read the "reason" caption. It can be quite helpful.

tryingmybestt

walshb wrote: »

Stalker.

Your rep here for such a short time is not all that good. Pity!

Again, edits for spelling. You need to read the "reason" caption. It can be quite helpful.

most of your posts have been edited......one doesnt need to look for it, its apparent on every page

i'm really saddened that my 'rep' isnt great in your opinion.....btw this is a forum not real life lol

tryingmybestt

rather in us pot shotting lets go back to topic.....

its a close fight...i give the edge to jones for the reasons i gave....you say ray .....

lets hear what others think...

the fights at 168lbs

walshb

tryingmybestt wrote: »

most of your posts have been edited......one doesnt need to look for it, its apparent on every page

i'm really saddened that my 'rep' isnt great in your opinion.....btw this is a forum not real life lol

Yes, majority do get edited. I said it's because I am a stickler for typos and spelling.

When you find all these edited posts that are bactrackers (change of opinion) please gimme' a shout. Best of luck.

Hint: An edited post with an added piece of info, or a date change, spelling change, grammatical change, emphasising change, e.g underline, italic or bold etc, doesn't count.

Happy hunting.

walshb

tryingmybestt wrote: »

rather in us pot shotting lets go back to topic.....

its a close fight...i give the edge to jones for the reasons i gave....you say ray .....

lets hear what others think...

the fights at 168lbs

Ok, we seem to me dominating most of the discussions. Not our fault if it's slow around here.

tryingmybestt

walshb wrote: »

Yes, majority do get edited. I said it's because I am a stickler for typos and spelling.

When you find all these edited posts that are bactrackers (change of opinion) please gimme' a shout. Best of luck.

Hint: An edited post with an added pice of info, or a date change, spelling change, grammatical change, emphasising change, e.g underline, italic or bold etc, doesn't count.

Happy hunting.

how can one find them if they have been edited lol

walshb

tryingmybestt wrote: »

how can one find them if they have been edited lol

That could be one tricky game alright!

megadodge

People forget that Ray at middleweight wasn't quite the genius he was at welterweight.

At middle he was already past his best and the losses to Turpin, Fullmer, Basilio and Pender in title fights would IMO back up this point. His loss to Maxim was purely due to exhaustion, brought on by the heat in the opinion of most, but I'm also sure that Maxim's strength and size had something to do with it. And Jones would be the naturally bigger man here.

Unfortunately there are no films of Ray at welter, when he was at his best, so we can only go on the later fights at middle and up and since this fantasy match is at supermiddle that suits our purposes.

From the films I've seen, Ray was an excellent puncher, excellent offensively, but to be quite honest not that hectic defensively. I've often thought it's probably because he was so offensively minded that he got caught more often than you'd expect 'the greatest of them all' to be. Jones on the other hand is as good a defensive fighter as I've ever seen.

Robinson's speed, while good, was definitely not in Jones class. Jones at his peak was ridiculously fast.

People seem to forget how hard Jones hit at middle and supermiddle also. He was a one-punch-ko man in those days. However, I'd still give the advantage to Sugar in that department. But not by much.

Then there's the matter of Jones unorthodox way of fighting. Randy Turpin was regarded as unorthodox in his day and Sugar had terrible problems with him. He lost the first fight clearly and was nip and tuck (and badly cut) before he finished the second. He'd never have encountered a style quite like Jones.

I like Jones' chances here.

walshb

What I love about this proposed match is that SRR will most definitely test Roy's character and chin. He will land, and thing is, he had such a good follow up attack, I would be worried for Jones. He threw shots from all angles, and wicked speed, with power and sustained follow up.

Both men are meeting something they have never before encountered. I will lean with SRR. Too much passion, volume, determination and win at all costs mentality. Plus, he lands clean and hard, I think he could really trouble Jones, and at least make Jones extra cautious in his willingness to engage.

tryingmybestt

what makes this a great fight is that it's not clear who is the winner...

IMO I give the edge to jones

I purposely picked 168lbs as the weight to see if ppl would fight the initial instinct to pick robinson over any fighter and think about the weight...

both can bang, both have excellent speed, both have good feet and balance but in all thse departments I'd give a slight edge to jones at 168lbs

coupled with the significant weight difference, at least a stone i'd say, i would definitely lean towards jones....

i agree totally with megadodges point about jones defence.....he had one of the best defences ever at his peak....how often did he lay on the ropes and the opponent would throw punches and land nothing while jones would punch off the ropes with quick uppercuts and hooks...

walshb

Anyone know fight night weights for Jones when he was fighting at 168 lbs?

Nobody can know what weight SRR would be because it is fantasy. We all know that for some of SRR MW bouts he weighed in as close to 160 as possible. He also fought at above 160 lbs when in his early 30s.

My view: If Ray and Roy met, I don't think it's inconceivable to think that SRR could weigh 166 or 167 on weigh in, and then put on a similar amount of weight as his opponent up to fight time.

This 14 lbs differene that is being put forward, well, it seems a big difference if one considers that SRR could be within 2-3 lbs of Roy at weigh in time, and then it jumps to 14 lbs come fight night?

Now, it has been clarified that BOTH weigh in at the same time, hasn't it?

tryingmybestt

walshb wrote: »

Anyone know fight night weights for Jones when he was fighting at 168 lbs?

Nobody can know what weight SRR would be because it is fantasy. We all know that for some of SRR MW bouts he weighed in as close to 160 as possible. He also fought at above 160 lbs when in his early 30s.

My view: If Ray and Roy met, I don't think it's inconceivable to think that SRR could weigh 166 or 167 on weigh in, and then put on a similar amount of weight as his opponent up to fight time.

This 14 lbs differene that is being put forward, well, it seems a big difference if one considers that SRR could be within 2-3 lbs of Roy at weigh in time, and then it jumps to 14 lbs come fight night?

Now, it has been clarified that BOTH weigh in at the same time, hasn't it?

jones was 180lbs at fight time when he fought hopkins at 160lbs so he'd be at least 185lbs at 168...

this fight is peak v peak and when SRR was at his peak he never weighed near 160....he was always light around 156lbs.....this showed he wouldn't be much more than 160lbs come fight time IMO

jones could be 25lbs heaver

i don't think it's inconceivable if jones already gained 20lbs at MW....if he gained 20lbs at SMW he would be 188lbs....even if SRR was 166 as you say thats still more than 20lbs....

tryingmybestt

ray was the naturally smaller man...he began his career at 135lbs.....jones began at 160lbs.....thats 25lbs

walshb

Then the match is really unfair I suppose, sure if one guy is going to be a stone heavier come fight night, what's the point?

Some would argue Ray's REAL peak was WW.

Anyway, for several MW title bouts SRR weighed on the MW limit, as close to 160 as possible. That could well be his MW peak Now, that was day of the fight. Had it been 24-30 hrs before fight, which is what it is today, isn't it? You did mention this a while ago.

Surely then it's possible that SRR could weigh 165-170 or more on his MW title fights at the time he was in the ring, if he weighed in 24-30 hrs before fight time.

Now, this match is proposed at SMW. So, SRR would weigh in above 160, below 168. Say 165? Roy weighs 167, both at the same time. How is it that Roy then weighs 14 lbs heavier at fight time?

Bear in mind I don't believe anyone has given any results for SRR fight night weights for his MW fights. I have shown that for MW weigh in times SRR for some of his MW title fights weighed on the button, not low, or light.

tryingmybestt

walshb wrote: »

Then the match is really unfair I suppose, sure if one guy is going to be a stone heavier come fight night, what's the point?

Some would argue Ray's REAL peak was WW.

Anyway, for several MW title bouts SRR weighed on the MW limit, as close to 160 as possible. That could well be his MW peak Now, that was day of the fight. Had it been 24-30 hrs before fight, which is what it is today, isn't it? You did mention this a while ago.

Surely then it's possible that SRR could weigh 165-170 or more on his MW title fights at the time he was in the ring, if he weighed in 24-30 hrs before fight time.

Now, this match is proposed at SMW. So, SRR would weigh in above 160, below 168. Say 165? Roy weighs 167, both at the same time. How is it that Roy then weighs 14 lbs heavier at fight time?

Bear in mind I don't believe anyone has given any results for SRR fight night weights for his MW fights. I have shown that for MW weigh in times SRR for some of his MW title fights weighed on the button, not low, or light.

jones was 17lbs heavier than hopkins come fight time....both weighed in close to 160lbs but come fight time hopkins was 163 and jones was 180.....that's how its possible

if you say the match is not fair then why did you pick robinson to win?

thats why i picked 168lbs as the weight because the added weight would help jones to overcome robinson's overall better skills

tryingmybestt

anytime ray weighed in close to 160lbs was when he was well past his peak

walshb

tryingmybestt wrote: »

jones was 17lbs heavier than hopkins come fight time....both weighed in close to 160lbs but come fight time hopkins was 163 and jones was 180.....that's how its possible

if you say the match is not fair then why did you pick robinson to loose?

thats why i picked 168lbs as the weight because the added weight would help jones to overcome robinson's overall better skills

Did I pick SRR to lose?

walshb

tryingmybestt wrote: »

anytime ray weighed in close to 160lbs was when he was well past his peak

Past his MW peak?

Funny that, as he was MW champ for several of those bouts.

walshb

tryingmybestt wrote: »

thats why i picked 168lbs as the weight because the added weight would help jones to overcome robinson's overall better skills

So, you handicapped the "fantasy match" to suit your pick? I would love to be able to know or predict what weight one man enters the ring vs. what weight his opponent enters the ring in a "fantasy match." That's some gift you have.

tryingmybestt

walshb wrote: »

Did I pick SRR to lose?

was msitake i meant you picked him to win

why did u pick him to win if the match is unfair ?

are you not agreeing that jones is much the bigger man?

walshb

tryingmybestt wrote: »

was msitake i meant you picked him to win

why did u pick him to win if the match is unfair ?

are you not agreeing that jones is much the bigger man?

That comment was more for sarcasm. Sorry. I still think that giving away a few lbs, SRR can win. I just don't see it as all that important. Important, but not defining.

tryingmybestt

walshb wrote: »

So, you handicapped the "fantasy match" to suit your pick? I would love to be able to know or predict what weight one man enters the ring vs. what weight his opponent enters the ring in a "fantasy match." That's some gift you have.

no i purposely picked 168lbs to see who would jump and immediately pcik SRR without thinking with their boxing brain about the significance of the weight....

you picked SRR to win

IMO more knowledgeable ppl like megadodge thought about it properly and picked jones

tryingmybestt

walshb wrote: »

That comment was more for sarcasm. Sorry. I still think that giving away a few lbs, SRR can win. I just don't see it as all that important. Important, but not defining.

you said a minute ago that the match would be 'unfair' if jones was 20lbs heavier

but now your picking robinson to win again??

walshb

tryingmybestt wrote: »

no i purposely picked 168lbs to see who would jump and immediately pcik SRR without thinking with their boxing brain about the significance of the weight....

you picked SRR to win

IMO more knowledgeable ppl like megadodge thought about it properly and picked jones

Is it because he picked Roy and agreed with your pick that this means he's more knowledgeable?

I think I'll take colly10s advice.

Usual:

A vs. B, pick, disagree, and come out with, "that makes no sense, you don't know what you're talking about, go watch some videos and then I'll debate with you, you're contradicting yourself, you know nothing about boxing, you have probably never boxed a round in your life, go watch cricket," and so on.

Yes, I think the ignore function would be best here.

Oh, like colly, not upset, just tired.

tryingmybestt

walshb wrote: »

Is it because he picked Roy and agreed with your pick that this means he's more knowledgeable?

I think I'll take colly10s advice.

Usual:

A vs. B, pick, disagree, and come out with, "that makes no sense, you don't know what you're talking about, go watch some videos and then I'll debate with you, you're contradicting yourself, you know nothing about boxing, you have probably never boxed a round in your life, go watch cricket," and so on.

Yes, I think the ignore function would be best here.

Oh, like colly, not upset, just tired.

lol

jones is the bigger man and at 168 lbs he wins

tryingmybestt

walshb wrote: »

that makes no sense, you don't know what you're talking about, go watch some videos and then I'll debate with you, you're contradicting yourself, you know nothing about boxing, you have probably never boxed a round in your life, go watch cricket,




exactly

barney4001

I always reckoned Ray Robinson one of the really great PFP fighters of all time even Ali said he was the greatest and thats saying something coming from him,to fast and good for Roy Jones, if Ray were fighting today just how many titles would he have collected

Bullseye1

I think Jones is too big and powerful for SRR. But SRR v Sugar Ray Leonard would be a more interesting matchup.

cowzerp

tryingmybestt wrote: »

IMO more knowledgeable ppl like megadodge thought about it properly and picked jones

that's just cheeky

1st off nothing is confirmed to make his opinion right here.

2nd because someone after reading the whole thread puts a bit if time into studying it does not necessarily mean they have more knowledge, just means they put more effort into it, I answered straight away and obviously did not dwell on it and put lots of study into it

Personally I don't like this at weight idea anyway as its basically picking 1 at peak and another not on peak-better just doing it in a lb 4 lb way and compare if they where both same weight in the ring.

tryingmybestt

cowzerp wrote: »

Personally I don't like this at weight idea anyway as its basically picking 1 at peak and another not on peak-better just doing it in a lb 4 lb way and compare if they where both same weight in the ring.

that exactly what this thread is doing, comparing a peak weight jones against a non peak weight robinson

robinson is better p4p, i don't think there's any debate there

i was just curious who would pick robinson to win regardless of the weight because in my opinion this fight is at such a weight disadvantage for robinson that he can't win

cowzerp

tryingmybestt wrote: »

that exactly what this thread is doing, comparing a peak weight jones against a non peak weight robinson

robinson is better p4p, i don't think there's any debate there

i was just curious who would pick robinson to win regardless of the weight because in my opinion this fight is at such a weight disadvantage for robinson that he can't win

Funny that, because in all these quotes you had it so close

Anyway I'm off to start a thread on would peak Marciano beat 2005 Tyson!

tryingmybestt wrote: »

if it's at 160lbs of below i'd give the edge to sugar but at 168lbs i'd be leaning towards jones

great fight, nip and tuck but i'd give the edge to jones

tryingmybestt wrote: »

rather in us pot shotting lets go back to topic.....

its a close fight...i give the edge to jones for the reasons i gave....you say ray .....

lets hear what others think...

the fights at 168lbs

tryingmybestt wrote: »

what makes this a great fight is that it's not clear who is the winner...

IMO I give the edge to jones

I purposely picked 168lbs as the weight to see if ppl would fight the initial instinct to pick robinson over any fighter and think about the weight...

both can bang, both have excellent speed, both have good feet and balance but in all thse departments I'd give a slight edge to jones at 168lbs

coupled with the significant weight difference, at least a stone i'd say, i would definitely lean towards jones......

tryingmybestt

cowzerp wrote: »

Funny that, because in all these quotes you had it so close

Anyway I'm off to start a thread on would peak Marciano beat 2005 Tyson!

what does this prove....i do give the edge to jones, it is close but its a decided edge that i can't see robinson overcoming

cowzerp

tryingmybestt wrote: »

what does this prove....i do give the edge to jones, it is close but its a decided edge that i can't see robinson overcoming

U more or less said we where not knowledgable because we picked Robinson, yet you still have it very tight, therefore us picking Robinson is not that far fetched, otherwise you would have said jones easily