Leo Varadkar doesn't think referendums are very democratic

Undercover FBI Agent

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0129/politics.html

Is this guy off his trolley?

Minister for Transport Leo Varadkar has said he is concerned that a referendum on the planned EU fiscal treaty would focus not on its content but on domestic issues.
Mr Varadkar said he didn't think referendums are "very democratic" and said by-and-large referendum campaigns in the past were never about what they are supposed to be about.
He said he would be concerned that a vote on the EU plan would focus on extraneous issues such as septic tanks, bondholders, the banking crisis or Government cutbacks.
A decision on whether a referendum is needed will be taken after the final text is agreed.
It is expected tomorrow's EU summit will sign off on the text.

jesus_thats_gre

Did you read what he said?

Captain Darling

News just in: Democracy is not democratic.

The_Minister

Read what he said, and not just the title.

It's controversial, but it is not insane, or even that unreasonable.

Undercover FBI Agent

Mr Varadkar said he didn't think referendums are "very democratic" and said by-and-large referendum campaigns in the past were never about what they are supposed to be about.

Yes I did

admiralofthefleet

maybe not where his oul fella comes from but here in Ireland they are

Richard tea

What Leo is really trying to say is..........We (the gov) know whats best for you ( the people ) so just let us handle this one old chaps.

Galwayguy35

Undercover FBI Agent wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0129/politics.html

Is this guy off his trolley?

Nope he is spot on. He knows people will vote it down just to get one over on the Government even if its in the countries best interests to pass it.

kfallon

His voice just does my head in :rolleyes:

TheZohanS

What did Darth Vader say?

dlofnep

He's a clown. Referenda are only undemocratic when they don't go his way. (Ala Lisbon I). He has the audacity to come out with this nonsense, right after breaking the cap for an advisor - upping it to €135,000 a year.

He's a lying scumbag.

The_Minister

The relevant context for his remarks is below:

Minister for Transport Leo Varadkar has said he is concerned that a referendum on the planned EU fiscal treaty would focus not on its content but on domestic issues.

Mr Varadkar said he didn't think referendums are "very democratic" and said by-and-large referendum campaigns in the past were never about what they are supposed to be about.

He said he would be concerned that a vote on the EU plan would focus on extraneous issues such as septic tanks, bondholders, the banking crisis or Government cutbacks.

He's right, that is how referendums tend to work in Ireland.

It's not fair to take one line out of context and go ballistic without considering the rest of his remarks, which explain what he said.

Manach

That in essence is what the minister stated.
He is partially right in that it would be difficult for people to set aside party loyalities or dis-satisfaction about the economy and vote purely on the issue at hand.

efb

He's right, people use referendum's as reason to voice your objection to the current government's policies

Captain Darling

Sure the whole Fine Gael party along with the stuffed shirt, massively overpaid Civil Servants at the top think we are a bunch of fcuking idiots. Edna Kenny said as much earlier this week to an international audience.

Nothing to do with the same Civil Servants paying themselves massive wages and totally mismanaging the country over the last fifteen years. Self serving, pompous fcuking assholes.

Simi

He's right. Referenda in Ireland are dominated by pressure groups (on both sides) who deliberately feed false information to the public to serve their own agenda.

lugha

The_Minister wrote: »

He's right, that is how referendums tend to work in Ireland.

Of course he is right.

If I might misquote Oscar W., the only thing that will provoke more indignation in the people than being lied to by politicians, is being told the truth by politicians.

Expect this thread to run and run.

Captain Darling

Whats wrong with having a go at the government? Voting against them in any referendum cant do any more harm on the country then what has been inflicted on us already?

Its not like we are the laughing stock of Europe. :pac:

Chucky the tree

Captain Darling wrote: »

Whats wrong with having a go at the government? Voting against them in any referendum cant do any more harm on the country then what has been inflicted on us already?

Its not like we are the laughing stock of Europe. :pac:

Why not simply vote on the basis of the referendum being good for Ireland or bad? Unfortunately lots of Irish people are to dumb and short-sighted for that one though.

My name is URL

He does have a point, but I think any elected representative should avoid coming out with stuff like that. It doesn't exactly shine his own electorate in a great light. They weren't so averse to the populist referendum on judges pay recently.

Captain Darling

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Why not simply vote on the basis of the referendum being good for Ireland or bad? Unfortunately lots of Irish people are to dumb and short-sighted for that one though.

Well, i'm totally jaded with the Mickey Mouse show that is our political system. I'll vote in relation to the merits of what is being put in front of me.

What pisses me off, is that these fcuking **** dont trust us to tie our own shoe laces and dont have enough confidence in themselves or their ability to run the country that they dont believe they can even gain popular support for a constitutional referendum.

I dont think its dumb and short sighted to express that. I'm sick of the political system here. Its a joke, it has made our country a joke and it shall continue to be a joke for as long as i can see.

ascanbe

The_Minister wrote: »

The relevant context for his remarks is below:


He's right, that is how referendums tend to work in Ireland.

It's not fair to take one line out of context and go ballistic without considering the rest of his remarks, which explain what he said.

I don't think anyone is taking what he said out of context.
It's quite clear what he's saying; that the 'ordinary' people can't comprehend these issues, can be easily 'mislead' and therefore it's more democratic to not let them vote on something at all than risk them getting it 'wrong'.
This is the exact kind of logic dictators use to justify not having general elections; the 'ordinary' people don't understand what's happening, might be mislead, might vote in the 'wrong' people, ie the opposition, and this would be bad for the country.
Therefore it's better not to give them a choice in the matter.
For their own good.

Liam Byrne

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Undercover FBI Agent wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0129/politics.html

Is this guy off his trolley?

Nope he is spot on. He knows people will vote it down just to get one over on the Government even if its in the countries best interests to pass it.

As distinct from all the stuff they're doing that isn't in our interest ? The stuff that - if we'd known they'd u-turn on - we wouldn't have voted for them ?

I used to like an respect Varadkar but he's (u)turned into a right tosser since he got into government.

Maybe he has a point, though - if we hadn't been as easily misled by his comments re making bondholders face their losses, we might have elected a more ethical and fair crowd than his.

Chucky the tree

Captain Darling wrote: »

Well, i'm totally jaded with the Mickey Mouse show that is our political system. I'll vote in relation to the merits of what is being put in front of me.

What pisses me off, is that these fcuking **** dont trust us to tie our own shoe laces and dont have enough confidence in themselves or their ability to run the country that they dont believe they can even gain popular support for a constitutional referendum.

I dont think its dumb and short sighted to express that. I'm sick of the political system here. Its a joke, it has made our country a joke and it shall continue to be a joke for as long as i can see.

Why should they? This is the same electorate who rowed behind the great honest politician that is Bertie and Fianna Fail. The same Electorate who voted in guys like Healy-rae, Lowry, Mick Wallace and plenty of other clowns who only know how to fill a pot-hole. If I was in Government the last thing I'd want is to ask the Irish people to vote on anything even remotely important because there is a very strong chance they will **** it up.

lugha

ascanbe wrote: »

I don't think anyone is taking what he said out of context.
It's quite clear what he's saying; that the 'ordinary' people can't comprehend these issues, can be easily 'mislead' and therefore it's more democratic to not let them vote on something at all than risk them getting it 'wrong'.
This is the exact kind of logic dictators use to justify not having general elections; the 'ordinary' people don't understand what's happening, might be mislead, might vote in the 'wrong' people, ie the opposition, and this would be bad for the country.
Therefore it's better not to give them a choice in the matter.
For their own good.

Er, no. That is not what he is saying. At all. :rolleyes:

gcgirl

how can you take seriously someone who wears a dinner jacket with a Dublin Jersey Knobend:D

Liam Byrne

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Captain Darling wrote: »

Well, i'm totally jaded with the Mickey Mouse show that is our political system. I'll vote in relation to the merits of what is being put in front of me.

What pisses me off, is that these fcuking **** dont trust us to tie our own shoe laces and dont have enough confidence in themselves or their ability to run the country that they dont believe they can even gain popular support for a constitutional referendum.

I dont think its dumb and short sighted to express that. I'm sick of the political system here. Its a joke, it has made our country a joke and it shall continue to be a joke for as long as i can see.

Why should they? This is the same electorate who rowed behind the great honest politician that is Bertie and Fianna Fail. The same Electorate who voted in guys like Healy-rae, Lowry, Mick Wallace and plenty of other clowns who only know how to fill a pot-hole. If I was in Government the last thing I'd want is to ask the Irish people to vote on anything even remotely important because there is a very strong chance they will **** it up.

Kettle, pot when it comes to government though......the stuff they're voting on (Internet laws and breaking pay caps and imposed sexism and how to screw ordinary people more) is hardly the stuff they should be doing.

stonetrower

A vote for Leo Varadkar and his FG is a vote against Democracy. At least the Greeks are putting a fight up. Leo is a medical doctor in charge of Tourism and Transport. What does he know about those subjects including Finance. Gob Almighty needs to get back to treating sick patients in Connolly Hospital.

Podge_irl

ascanbe wrote: »

It's quite clear what he's saying; that the 'ordinary' people can't comprehend these issues, can be easily 'mislead' and therefore it's more democratic to not let them vote on something at all than risk them getting it 'wrong'.

It's quite clear that's not what he's saying.

He's saying people don't bother even trying to comprehend what they're being asked to vote on and base their vote on utterly irrelevant and extraneous issues. Which, based on exit polling, is entirely accurate.

Captain Darling

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Why should they? This is the same electorate who rowed behind the great honest politician that is Bertie and Fianna Fail. The same Electorate who voted in guys like Healy-rae, Lowry, Mick Wallace and plenty of other clowns who only know how to fill a pot-hole. If I was in Government the last thing I'd want is to ask the Irish people to vote on anything even remotely important because there is a very strong chance they will **** it up.

And who the fcuk elected the current government in? Jesus Christ, that has to be one of the densest replies to a post i have ever read. The current government are bending over taking it up the hole from the troike, they dont trust the electorate because they are a spineless bunch of fcukers and want to deny us what is out constitutional right because they think 'WE' the people who elected them might lash out at them.

I think if anything, people today are more politically savvy and aware because of all the troubles. In fact you should be in government because you have the same bullsh1t opinion as the morons in power.

Ffs. :pac:

ascanbe

lugha wrote: »

Er, no. That is not what he is saying. At all. :rolleyes:

Really?
Though your use of the :rolleyes: in your response is certainly convincing, i'm still inclined to think that that's precisely what he is saying.

TheZohanS

Well maybe if the government did their fùcking job right people wouldn't have to use the likes of referenda to show their disgust at the job they're doing. There's feck all else we can do to show how pissed we are.

ArmaniJeanss

When people here (AH, boards.ie, Ireland in general) say they hope there is a referendum so they can Vote No, well suddenly Dr Leo seems to have a very good point.

ascanbe

Podge_irl wrote: »

It's quite clear that's not what he's saying.

He's saying people don't bother even trying to comprehend what they're being asked to vote on and base their vote on utterly irrelevant and extraneous issues. Which, based on exit polling, is entirely accurate.

You could say the same about a general election, if you wanted.
It's not a valid reason for denying people the chance to vote on a decision of this magnitude; although, it is clear, judging by the opinions being offered by some of our government minsters, that this is exactly what they intend to do.

lugha

ascanbe wrote: »

i'm still inclined to think that that's precisely what he is saying.

Well think again. :pac:
Or better still, just read what he said, it is pretty clear.

Chucky the tree

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Kettle, pot when it comes to government though......the stuff they're voting on (Internet laws and breaking pay caps and imposed sexism and how to screw ordinary people more) is hardly the stuff they should be doing.

That just helps to prove my point even more, did electorate actually expect Fine Gael and Labour to stick to every single promise they made? The saying goes "fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me" doesn't it? In this day and age how anyone can expect honesty from politicians I'll never know.

Captain Darling wrote: »

And who the fcuk elected the current government in? Jesus Christ, that has to be one of the densest replies to a post i have ever read. The current government are bending over taking it up the hole from the troike, they dont trust the electorate because they are a spineless bunch of fcukers and want to deny us what is out constitutional right because they think 'WE' the people who elected them might lash out at them.

I think if anything, people today are more politically savvy and aware because of all the troubles. In fact you should be in government because you have the same bullsh1t opinion as the morons in power.

Ffs. :pac:

Another fine performance from the electorate then. How could I ever question them? :pac:

Captain Darling

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Another fine performance from the electorate then. How could I ever question them?

More to the point, who are you to question them? Enda fcuking Kenny?

Podge_irl

ascanbe wrote: »

You could say the same about a general election, if you wanted.

You could, except you wouldn't be making any sense.

Local issues are entirely relevant in the general election. "Septic tanks, bondholders, the banking crisis or Government cutbacks" are perfect things to consider when deciding who to vote for in a general election.

A referendum is about one simply topic - an amendment to the constitution. The general populace appear to either not understand or not care about this - a fact backed up by exit polling data.

sock puppet

ascanbe wrote: »

You could say the same about a general election, if you wanted.
.

No you couldn't. There are pretty much no extraneous factors in a general election. Every decision a government makes is up for debate. Even if things do happen that are outside the governments control they still have the responsibility to respond to them.

ascanbe

Podge_irl wrote: »

You could, except you wouldn't be making any sense.

Local issues are entirely relevant in the general election. "Septic tanks, bondholders, the banking crisis or Government cutbacks" are perfect things to consider when deciding who to vote for in a general election.

A referendum is about one simply topic - an amendment to the constitution. The general populace appear to either not understand or not care about this - a fact backed up by exit polling data.

You would be.
It's fair to say that some people vote for candidates in general elections for all types of seemingly extraneous reasons; liking the look of someone, the way they dress, the sound of their voice, their hair etc.
Denying people a vote on something of this importance due to presumption of what will inform them/what their reasoning wil be, i.e. professing to know their 'mind' and what's good for them better than they know it themselves, is the definition of undemocratic.

Podge_irl

ascanbe wrote: »

Denying people a vote on something of this importance due to presumption of what will inform them/what their reasoning wil be.

It's not a baseless presumption. There is plenty of evidence to say that that is what will happen. They're not "denying" us anything - they're exercising the legislative powers we've given them. Like governments in Ireland and abroad have done for decades. If we don't have a referendum it will be because they're not legally obliged to have one.

It's fair to say that some people vote in for candidates in general elections for all types of seemingly extraneous reasons; liking the look of someone, the way they dress, the sound of their voice, their hair etc.

Yes it is fair to say that. I think it's less of a problem and there is much larger scope for reasons to vote for your local representative.

is the definition of undemocratic.

No it isn't. The members of our parliament are deciding upon the intricacies of a pan-European treaty and attempting to reach a deal that they think is best for us. Which is what they're elected for and paid to do. We've never had direct democracy.

He shouldn't have used the word democratic really. It was a poor choice of phrasing. If he had said referenda aren't very reflective of people's positions on the actual amendment proposed then he would have been entirely accurate.

Liam Byrne

Podge_irl wrote: »

ascanbe wrote: »

You could say the same about a general election, if you wanted.

You could, except you wouldn't be making any sense.

Local issues are entirely relevant in the general election. "Septic tanks, bondholders, the banking crisis or Government cutbacks" are perfect things to consider when deciding who to vote for in a general election.

A referendum is about one simply topic - an amendment to the constitution. The general populace appear to either not understand or not care about this - a fact backed up by exit polling data.

And the referendum in question is about which topic? Varadkar is just trying to muddy the waters to delude himself that there are other reasons for objecting.

It's FF's "the people just wanted change" delusion all over again!

If they actually started doing stuff that was the interests of the country and stopped breaking the rules to suit themselves, then maybe we wouldn't be objecting.

But I guess a "no" vote on Varakar's attempt to break pay caps would just be "a protest vote against the interests of the country" too ? Or maybe votes against spending €800,000 that we don't have ?

We'll use our vote to back fair and honest measures - if and when FG ever come up with any!

Notorious97

Leo will never be stuck for a blow job round these forums thats for sure.

People will vote no to what they think is a bad idea or deal for us, the government dont understand the word no appearently, people were fooled into voting for FG and labour, if people think the topic they are asked to vote on is good for ireland, in sure they will.

Previous no votes have been no for a reason, bad ideas!! Sure were all rolling in jobs and prosperity now with lisbon for fu*k sake!!

K-9

Ah the bould Leo, the Kevin Myers of politics!

Well done Leo.

Podge_irl

Liam Byrne wrote: »

If they actually started doing stuff that was the interests of the country

Yeah, cause it's entirely in their interests to screw the country over at every possible opportunity...

I don't understand how people can argue the point Varadkar is making - there is plenty of evidence from previous referenda that people voted (both for and against) for reasons that had nothing to do with the amendment in question. That fact is indisputable.

FG would also like to avoid a protracted referendum campaign, that would cost a lot of money (something people seem very concerned about), and , in their view, cause uncertainty that would damage Ireland and Europe's chance of recovery. Their using their judgement, which is what they are supposed to do and what they were elected to do. If told that a referendum is a legal necessity then there will be a referendum. They're not circumventing any laws by not having one. If they're not going to be affecting the constitution then they don't need one.

I'd love a referendum on the stupid SOPA-esque bill they're bringing in. I don't expect one though. So I and many others are contacting TDs about it to express our concerns. If the bill goes through it will be one of the things that affects my vote next time round. That's how our democracy works...

Galtee

It didn't seem to bother Leo Vodka that FG were elected on the same basis that he's moaning about now. All he has done is publicly admit that FG were undemocratically elected IMHO, we'll have to vote again! :rolleyes:

MagicSean

He's right. Irish voters are generally stupid and don't think of the consequence of their vote.

laugh

On what planet could you have a referendum that wasn't influenced by public sentiment at the time? Idiot.

Ceist_Beag

Captain Darling wrote: »

I think if anything, people today are more politically savvy and aware because of all the troubles. :

Good God, if your postings here are representative of these people then I think I'd rather trust our elected representatives than such people! Your rants only serve to prove the point Varadkar was making.

NinjaK

efb wrote: »

He's right, people use referendum's as reason to voice your objection to the current government's policies

Thats nonsense!!
So if the question on the ballot paper was - do you want free money?
Your saying people would vote no just to object to the government policies?!
You liberal fascists really are crazy.

siltirocker

NinjaK wrote: »

Thats nonsense!!
So if the question on the ballot paper was - do you want free money?
Your saying people would vote no just to object to the government policies?!
You liberal fascists really are crazy.

Yes, they would. Plenty of my moronic friends, acquaintances and people on Moore Street would without doubt.