Leo Varadkar doesn't think referendums are very democratic

Galtee

efb wrote: »

He's right, people use referendum's as reason to voice your objection to the current government's policies

And let's not forget general elections.

NinjaK

siltirocker wrote: »

Yes, they would. Plenty of my moronic friends, acquaintances and people on Moore Street would without doubt.

Moore Street?

veryangryman

Leo has this uncanny habit of saying something stupid every Sunday im noticing. The rod up that guys butt must have a rod up its butt.

I saw that documentary on the election. It seems that the guy is single (must be, working 3 jobs like that).

My analysis: The guy needs a ride badly.

MidlandsM

dlofnep wrote: »

He's a lying scumbag.

a cheap name calling attack on him, but you.

Grow up, and think before posting your personalised drivel.:rolleyes:

sensibleken

He's absolutely right.

Domocracy isnt just about casting a vote. Its about casting an informed vote. the 'if you dont know, vote no' nonsense makes a mockery of democracy.

The last 4 referenda we've had have been dominated with absolute lies, from 1.84, abortion, EU armies, yes for jobs, euthanasia, Turkey etc.

I can garantee 100% that if there is a referendum it will not be fought on what is actually proposed. If the referendum was promising imortality for puppies then people would vote against it because of cutbacks.

I just hope to god there isnt one. i cant face another lisbon farce

veryangryman

sensibleken wrote: »

He's absolutely right.

Domocracy isnt just about casting a vote. Its about casting an informed vote. the 'if you dont know, vote no' nonsense makes a mockery of democracy.

The last 4 referenda we've had have been dominated with absolute lies, from 1.84, abortion, EU armies, yes for jobs, euthanasia, Turkey etc.

I can garantee 100% that if there is a referendum it will not be fought on what is actually proposed. If the referendum was promising imortality for puppies then people would vote against it because of cutbacks.

I just hope to god there isnt one. i cant face another lisbon farce

What if people vote no as a result of being lied to?

The point is that people do not trust the government. And they should be allowed to say that in a democratic way. We cant punish them until the next election, so in the meantime, yes of course we should make them know we think that they are incompetent. As a tax paying citzen, i think that i am entitled to a say, however small in such important matters.

bicardi19

This should just read Leo Varadkar doesn't think.....full stop!

jester77

They should have a simple pre-voting exam where you have to answer 4 or 5 random questions about what you are voting on, and if you fail you get no vote.

sensibleken

veryangryman wrote: »

What if people vote no as a result of being lied to?

The point is that people do not trust the government. And they should be allowed to say that in a democratic way. We cant punish them until the next election, so in the meantime, yes of course we should make them know we think that they are incompetent. As a tax paying citzen, i think that i am entitled to a say, however small in such important matters.

this is exactly why there shouldnt be a referendum. It has nothing to do with how satisfied you are with the current government.

this will not be small, it will be huge. It is an international agreement between 26 countries, not an excuse for you to say you dont like enda

Liam Byrne

jester77 wrote: »

They should have a simple pre-voting exam where you have to answer 4 or 5 random questions about what you are voting on, and if you fail you get no vote.

90% of TDs would be excluded from voting, methinks.

veryangryman

sensibleken wrote: »

this is exactly why there shouldnt be a referendum. It has nothing to do with how satisfied you are with the current government.

this will not be small, it will be huge. It is an international agreement between 26 countries, not an excuse for you to say you dont like enda

Sure why ask the people anything with that logic. Why not get a Royal Family type situation? We have a democracy and to be frank, i dont trust the people running the country so I will naturally oppose most of their situations which (as per leading economists) are killing the economy.

As you said, it will be huge. Important things (ie constitutional change) are a matter for the people as a whole. Im not hanging around waiting until the damage is done (IMF deal anyone??) What you are proposing is dictatirial rule. Regardless of mine or anyone elses agenda, the rulebook is there for all to follow. Ergo, referendum

Nothingbetter2d

Captain Darling wrote: »

News just in: Democracy is not democratic.

only if the majority agree

Dyr

sensibleken wrote: »

He's absolutely right.

Domocracy isnt just about casting a vote. Its about casting an informed vote. the 'if you dont know, vote no' nonsense makes a mockery of democracy.

The last 4 referenda we've had have been dominated with absolute lies, from 1.84, abortion, EU armies, yes for jobs, euthanasia, Turkey etc.

I can garantee 100% that if there is a referendum it will not be fought on what is actually proposed. If the referendum was promising imortality for puppies then people would vote against it because of cutbacks.

I just hope to god there isnt one. i cant face another lisbon farce

We don't live in just a democracy, we live in a constitutional republic.

This referendum will be lost on the basis that the european project has zero credibility with irish electorate now. Or it will be won on the basis of fear mongering and threats of dire consequences from ze germans .

sensibleken

veryangryman wrote: »

Sure why ask the people anything with that logic. Why not get a Royal Family type situation? We have a democracy and to be frank, i dont trust the people running the country so I will naturally oppose most of their situations which (as per leading economists) are killing the economy.

As you said, it will be huge. Important things (ie constitutional change) are a matter for the people as a whole. Im not hanging around waiting until the damage is done (IMF deal anyone??) What you are proposing is dictatirial rule. Regardless of mine or anyone elses agenda, the rulebook is there for all to follow. Ergo, referendum

This makes absolutely no sense. Its not dictatorial rule for gods sake, we elected representatives to represent us, thats what theyre doing.

Referendums work fine on simple issues, the two last year for example, divorce, abortion, we get clear answers on those. The problem with EU treaties is that people dont answer the question asked, like you they use it to give out, which is a total waste of time as then they have to hold the thing again like nice and lisbon.

I've news for you, the damage has been done back in 2008. The rulebook you refer to does not give any automatic right to a referendum on any european treaty, just in cases where the constitution is changed

Liam Byrne

sensibleken wrote:

The problem with EU treaties is that people dont answer the question asked, like you they use it to give out

And the whole "yes to jobs" malarkey - as touted by FG & Varadkar - was related to the question asked, I suppose ? :rolleyes:

TDs only object when it suits them; there's no consistency at all!

The fact remains that the referendum result that they are trying to barge through relates very much to the issues; and while having countries limit their deficit is a good idea, there needs to be decency in HOW it's done.....if neither FF nor FG can be trusted to do it fairly, is it still in the interests of the country ?

sensibleken

Liam Byrne wrote: »

And the whole "yes to jobs" malarkey - as touted by FG & Varadkar - was related to the question asked, I suppose ? :rolleyes:

TDs only object when it suits them; there's no consistency at all!

The fact remains that the referendum result that they are trying to barge through relates very much to the issues; and while having countries limit their deficit is a good idea, there needs to be decency in HOW it's done.....if neither FF nor FG can be trusted to do it fairly, is it still in the interests of the country ?

No it wasnt, and thats the point. neither was all the 1.84 nonsense. None of it is ever actually related to the question thats being asked but some people will still make up their mind based on 3 words on a poster, not the subject of the question.

Fear Uladh

Lisbon for jobs.

Anyone

Dear Leo,

Just fix the fúcking roads, and stop being such a media whore.

Signed,

Anyone

sensibleken

Anyone wrote: »

Dear Leo,

Just fix the fúcking roads, and stop being such a media whore.

Signed,

Anyone

Im pretty sure they just go straight to him because they know he'll say something stupid. His catchphrase should be 'uh-oooh spagettioooos!'

and said by-and-large referendum campaigns in the past were never about what they are supposed to be about.

He certainly has a point on that one, they're often used as a lobby to spread misinformation

Liam Byrne

bluewolf wrote: »

and said by-and-large referendum campaigns in the past were never about what they are supposed to be about.

He certainly has a point on that one, they're often used as a lobby to spread misinformation

By both sides, including the Government.

sbsquarepants

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Nope he is spot on. He knows people will vote it down just to get one over on the Government even if its in the countries best interests to pass it.

Democracy is fine, so long as you vote how your told to. Is that your point?

Captain Darling wrote: »

Sure the whole Fine Gael party along with the stuffed shirt, massively overpaid Civil Servants at the top think we are a bunch of fcuking idiots. Edna Kenny said as much earlier this week to an international audience.

Nothing to do with the same Civil Servants paying themselves massive wages and totally mismanaging the country over the last fifteen years. Self serving, pompous fcuking assholes.

Exactly, they have broken every promise they made prior to election, those promises were they very reason they were elected, now they don't want to ask people because they know nobody believes them anymore. Look at how enda basically swindelled his teachers pension, all the while preaching to us about cutbacks and austerity, while simultaeniously laughing with his financial masters about how the stupid peasants of ireland are really to blame for this mess. Spineless fúcking traitor he is. They're as bad as bertie and his band of gobshítes

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

When people here (AH, boards.ie, Ireland in general) say they hope there is a referendum so they can Vote No, well suddenly Dr Leo seems to have a very good point.

Lucky for us, we have such clever leaders to do our thinking for us so.
You seem to have forgotten, they are there to serve us, we are not here to serve them and their banking overlords.

siltirocker

NinjaK wrote: »

Moore Street?

Sorry that was a joke. Moore Street is a street in Dublin not 2 mins from the GPO. The street hosts a market run by AJHs ("Ah Jaysus, Howiya!") who don't pronounce the letter 'H' after 'T' and have very strong opinions on things they are ignorant to.

sensibleken

siltirocker wrote: »

Sorry that was a joke. Moore Street is a street in Dublin not 2 mins from the GPO. The street hosts a market run by AJHs ("Ah Jaysus, Howiya!") who don't pronounce the letter 'H' after 'T' and have very strong opinions on things they are ignorant to.

thats a bit of a snoby generalisation

sbsquarepants

siltirocker wrote: »

Yes, they would. Plenty of my moronic friends, acquaintances and people on Moore Street would without doubt.

Maybe they could limit the vote to people of your immense intellect only?
Can't have morons, (or people on moore street apparently), having their say, that would be chaos.

Chucky the tree

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Democracy is fine, so long as you vote how your told to. Is that your point?

No democracy is fine if people vote with the best interest at heart, even if that means no. However voting no just because the government raised VAT etc is just stupid.

faceman

The out of context comments dont really make sense. Just because people will vote against for treaty for "the wrong reasons", doesn't make voting any less democratic than voting for "the right reasons".

Captain Darling

Ceist_Beag wrote: »

Good God, if your postings here are representative of these people then I think I'd rather trust our elected representatives than such people! Your rants only serve to prove the point Varadkar was making.

This is the type of elitist politico bullsh1t i would expect to hear from a dyed in the wool blueshirt supporter. Fcuking ridiculous.

Dont give the poor idiots a voice because its all their fault the country went to fcuk over the last fifteen years. Nothing to do with a system of institutionalised wastefulness and incompetency that is inherent amongst all the high ranking civil servants and from all sides of the idiots who we call our elected public representatives???

Go back to reading the fcuking Sunday Independent.

faceman

Chucky the tree wrote: »

No democracy is fine if people vote with the best interest at heart, even if that means no. However voting no just because the government raised VAT etc is just stupid.

Voting for previous treaties has led to the Europe and Ireland we have today. Therefore there is very much a link between domestic issues and European issues.

sensibleken

faceman wrote: »

The out of context comments dont really make sense. Just because people will vote against for treaty for "the wrong reasons", doesn't make voting any less democratic than voting for "the right reasons".

Id argue that it does. just turning up to vote doesnt make a democracy, or at least a working democracy. We dont count a system of coerced voting democratic and i dont think we should count an ignorant or missiformed vote as a true democratic expression either.

Chucky the tree

faceman wrote: »

Voting for previous treaties has led to the Europe and Ireland we have today. Therefore there is very much a link between domestic issues and European issues.

Voting for Irish political parties(Fianna Fail mainly) has led us to where we are today, very little to do with Europe.

Dyr

siltirocker wrote: »

Sorry that was a joke. Moore Street is a street in Dublin not 2 mins from the GPO. The street hosts a market run by AJHs ("Ah Jaysus, Howiya!") who don't pronounce the letter 'H' after 'T' and have very strong opinions on things they are ignorant to.

Moore street is mostly full of blacks and chinese, I just presumed you were prejudiced against them. they havent a f**king clue either by your standards so I would imagine you should be grand sneering at them too

veryangryman

sensibleken wrote: »

Id argue that it does. just turning up to vote doesnt make a democracy, or at least a working democracy. We dont count a system of coerced voting democratic and i dont think we should count an ignorant or missiformed vote as a true democratic expression either.

Democracy is that the majority rule. Regardless of their motives, opinion, education, whatever. Whether democracy works is another conversation. We can all say it doesnt to suit our arguments, but the situation is what it is.

The majority do not want this; that is why Leo doesnt want a referendum as the government are not listening to their people.

sensibleken

veryangryman wrote: »

Democracy is that the majority rule. Regardless of their motives, opinion, education, whatever. Whether democracy works is another conversation. We can all say it doesnt to suit our arguments, but the situation is what it is.

The majority do not want this; that is why Leo doesnt want a referendum as the government are not listening to their people.

On a very basic level yes. But ignorant, coerced or biased voting makes a mockery of it. If RTE did not allow one side of the debate to make its case and that side lost would you call it democratic?

mikom

Noonan : Emigration is a lifestyle choice.

Kenny: You are not to blame Ye are to blame, ye all went mad.

Varadkar: Referendums are not very democratic.

Pricks.

These are the mouthpieces that are negotiating with Europe.
God fucking help us all.

Happyman42

If you propose a motion in a referendum then it is up to you to see it carried, by explaining said motion and advocating it properly. If you fail, you fail, you cannot blame anybody but yourself and or, the motion. That is how it works, there is no other way.
Varadkar and his co-horts will graduate fascist school with flying colours.

Captain Darling

veryangryman wrote: »

Democracy is that the majority rule. Regardless of their motives, opinion, education, whatever. Whether democracy works is another conversation. We can all say it doesnt to suit our arguments, but the situation is what it is.

The majority do not want this; that is why Leo doesnt want a referendum as the government are not listening to their people.

I believe its just another slimey curve ball being thrown by the government.

Kennys 'let them eat cake' speech in Europe last week was another part of this. They dont see the problem as emanating from themselves, far from it.

Its more shirking of responsibilty and lack of accountability which has been endemic in our public offices for far too long.

Let them eat cake indeed. Fcuk off Enda.

Captain Darling

mikom wrote: »

Noonan : Emigration is a lifestyle choice.

Kenny: You are not to blame Ye are to blame, ye all went mad.

Varadkar: Referendums are not very democratic.

Pricks.

These are the mouthpieces that are negotiating with Europe.
God fucking help us all.

Exactly. What planet are these people living on? It goes to show how far out of touch those in the political system are with everything. Its the general public that are at fault for what happened. Nothing to do with a total lack of regulation by the Civil Servants, a political system involving parties that are ideologically interchangeably and general parish pump rubbish that has held us back for so long.

Varadkar et al think the Irish general public are the laughing stock of Europe and are afraid that we will shame them further. In reality the government couldnt manage a piss up in a brewery and are an international joke.

Chucky the tree

Captain Darling wrote: »

Exactly. What planet are these people living on? It goes to show how far out of touch those in the political system are with everything. Its the general public that are at fault for what happened. Nothing to do with a total lack of regulation by the Civil Servants, a political system involving parties that are ideologically interchangeably and general parish pump rubbish that has held us back for so long.

Varadkar et al think the Irish general public are the laughing stock of Europe and are afraid that we will shame them further. In reality the government couldnt manage a piss up in a brewery and are an international joke.

Do you not think electing a government who couldn't manage a piss up in a brewry makes us a laughing stock?

Morlar

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Nope he is spot on. He knows people will vote it down just to get one over on the Government even if its in the countries best interests to pass it.

If Ireland is given a refferendum on the fiscal treaty and then rejects it - then in that case it would be a massive assumption to claim that people rejected it because they wanted to 'get one over on the govt' and NOT that they simply rejected the fiscal treaty.

If there is a refferendum and people vote NO. Does Leo have a percentage for how many NO voters actually mean NO and how many are 'just trying to register annoyance at the govt' ?

I think it is the height of arrogance and contempt to presume to assign different reasons to a persons refferendum choice on the basis that you (in this case Varadkar) might disagree with the outcome. If he agreed with the outcome I doubt he would seek to assign different reasons to a refferendum result.

I think he needs to learn to respect peoples wishes. It is bad enough they are trying to deny people the opportunity to vote on this subject but to then say that if you do vote on this issue then you really mean something different than what you vote for - that is offensive. In relation to all things EU related politicians in this country have a major problem with refferendum descisions. I wonder if Varadkar believes that each time people vote no on an EU related issue that they each time - don't really mean no at all.

Maybe he should consider the possibility that they really do fcuking mean NO.

siltirocker

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Maybe they could limit the vote to people of your immense intellect only?
Can't have morons, (or people on moore street apparently), having their say, that would be chaos.

I am being called ignorant. . . to ignorant people. **** 'em that's what I say.

In a perfect world people would take exams before referendums to prove they actually know what they are on about. Voting for INDA cause "he has a nice smile", "is a nice lad" or cause he told you a funny joke in pub in Achill one time is retarded IMO. Just as shooting down a referendum cause you don't like the person delivering it. If the Dominos lad shagged my wife. . . it doesn't mean I'm going to stop eating pizza.

Hannibal Smith

The way people vote is a personal choice and it's up to them. You can't tell anyone how they're 'supposed' to vote. Regardless of what you think of their reasons, they're entitled to their vote. It's arrogant snobbery to think you vote a better way than anyone else.

Captain Darling

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Do you not think electing a government who couldn't manage a piss up in a brewry makes us a laughing stock?

Absolutely not. You play the hand you are dealt.

Did all of us idiots miss our knights in shining armour at the last election? I must have been wearing my blinkers that day. There are very little alternatives in terms of political representation to what we have currently.

Can you suggest an alternative?

sensibleken

Hannibal Smith wrote: »

The way people vote is a personal choice and it's up to them. You can't tell anyone how they're 'supposed' to vote. Regardless of what you think of their reasons, they're entitled to their vote. It's arrogant snobbery to think you vote a better way than anyone else.

Im pretty sure reading the question before answering is the best aproach and doesnt mean arrogant snobbery to advocate it

siltirocker

Bambi wrote: »

Moore street is mostly full of blacks and chinese, I just presumed you were prejudiced against them. they havent a f**king clue either by your standards so I would imagine you should be grand sneering at them too

How dare you insinuate I am a racist. Or assume you know my standards of prejudice.

I pointed out a market on a street that is full of people I know that are ignorant to what is being discussed but has not stopped them having a strong opinion formed by the lobbyist and not the bill. I did not say the street was full of them. I just said it was there.

If Hitler was to push the free candy for everyone act 2012, fcukin' no one would vote it in because the holocaust was pure cnutish!

Hannibal Smith

sensibleken wrote: »

Im pretty sure reading the question before answering is the best aproach and doesnt mean arrogant snobbery to advocate it

And being literate would of course be the better starting approach, wouldn't it?

Chucky the tree

Captain Darling wrote: »

Absolutely not. You play the hand you are dealt.

Did all of us idiots miss our knights in shining armour at the last election? I must have been wearing my blinkers that day. There are very little alternatives in terms of political representation to what we have currently.

Can you suggest an alternative?

If I didn't think a party could manage a piss up in a brewry I simply wouldn't vote. Then again consider the things people knock them for it's pretty clear the electorate are fairly stupid aswell. The fact Noonan is bashed for his emmigration comments say it all, most people just get their information from a headline.

Captain Darling

siltirocker wrote: »

How dare you insinuate I am a racist. Or assume you know my standards of prejudice.

I pointed out a market on a street that is full of people I know that are ignorant to what is being discussed but has not stopped them having a strong opinion formed by the lobbyist and not the bill. I did not say the street was full of them. I just said it was there.

If Hitler was to push the free candy for everyone act 2012, fcukin' no one would vote it in because the holocaust was pure cnutish!

How do you know they are all ignorant? You're taking a leaf out of Twatdkars buke.

Jesus, i'd fight with my toe nails this morning. :D

Hannibal Smith

Chucky the tree wrote: »

If I didn't think a party could manage a piss up in a brewry I simply wouldn't vote. Then again consider the things people knock them for it's pretty clear the electorate are fairly stupid aswell. The fact Noonan is bashed for his emmigration comments say it all, most people just get their information from a headline.

Did you vote in the last election?

sensibleken

Hannibal Smith wrote: »

And being literate would of course be the better starting approach, wouldn't it?

Literate means being able to read and write