Smolov Veterans - read here please :)

Hanley

This is weird, but I strongly disagree with pretty much all of your post.

kevpants wrote: »

Is it too late to disagree with everything and say she should do Smolov but that the weight was just too heavy?

I agree here.

Also didn't realise doing 500 reps would be engraining bad habits, I thought it would me more like practice?

Perfect practice makes perfect and all that. Do something bad frequently and you get better at doing it badly.

It's not like she's a newbie to squatting. The bad motor pattern's established. No point reinforcing it.

I don't think the squats look too bad, over-thought if anything.

Serious?? Watch the 60kg again. There's no tightness in bottom and serious lower body adduction/knees collapsing. Like max attempts can get ugly if there's a strong element of control over the bar, but in my opinion that's lacking.

Keep in mind you can improve technique while getting stronger. You don't have to drop back weight everytime you try something new. My own squat has morphed constantly over the past few years but at no point did I think it worthwhile to stop trying to get stronger while adjusting my bar position, foot position etc.

With all respect to G, it hasn't worked so far. She may disagree but chasing numbers hasn't been kind to her tekkers. Doing it all over again with one of the most brutal squat programs going will lead down a dark alley.

In fact I KNOW if I spent a month with 50% on the bar making sure my back angle was nailed down I'd completely lose it again with 90% on my back.

Probably, but you've good awareness and a solid squat. You've the foundation build, and the ability to control your body, make minor tweaks and have a sense what's happening with them. That's not the case here.

People are forgetting the very argument everyone made against 5/3/1. It all goes to sh1t when things get heavy. They're also forgetting one of the plusses of Smolov, that nothing makes your squat better than 30-40 reps a session 3-4 times a week.

I'll say it again - mechanics, consistency, intensity.

If you can't handle sub max weights with good form, you'll never be able to do it with max weights.

If it's a laziness things with the attempts, that can be corrected with just HTFU'n and working hard for position. But when you lack the basic sense of what that position is in the first place (watch the 50% vid, the exact same issues are apparent), you can't force your body there and only end up frustrated with a lack of progress.

I agree with most of what you've said, just not in the context of this thread!

G86

I am so confused right now!

I don't think my squat form is terrible, I've both done and seen worse, but I'm also aware that if I'm not being cued I'm sh1t at judging it myself. That's why it improved so much in I P and it's why it's gone to sh1t since-I essentially need someone roaring cues at me. Problem is, that isn't an option at the moment, so I need to work on getting a feel for it myself.. and I figured I the main way to do that was more squatting.

Dathai

To be fair, you're almost guaranteed to burn out if you dive straight into squatting 4 times a week.

I was nearly considering doing something like 5x5 @ ~60% of my max, twice a week just to work on form and get in some good assistance exercises. I simply don't have the time for it atm. Dunno if it's something you'd consider, or even advisable :P

kevpants

Hanley wrote: »

This is weird, but I strongly disagree with pretty much all of your post.

Are you breaking up with me?

Perfect practice makes perfect and all that. Do something bad frequently and you get better at doing it badly.

It's not like she's a newbie to squatting. The bad motor pattern's established. No point reinforcing it.

Totally weird as you said but I think the complete opposite :pac:

She's one of the most intensively coached people I've seen and the advice is to go back to the drawing board? Like she said she seems to fall apart when she doesn't have a coach on hand. Reeks of overthinking to me. She probably has 100 cues echoing in her head and its really only possible to keep one or two in your mind at a time.

Serious?? Watch the 60kg again. There's no tightness in bottom and serious lower body adduction/knees collapsing. Like max attempts can get ugly if there's a strong element of control over the bar, but in my opinion that's lacking.

Yeah her knees collapse like everyone else who lives in the 21st century and has some kind of glue/hip issue but if she kep thinking about pushing her knees out during her sets then it would improve massively. Too many cues in her head again, I think a clear mind and just thinking about her knees would really help.

With all respect to G, it hasn't worked so far. She may disagree but chasing numbers hasn't been kind to her tekkers. Doing it all over again with one of the most brutal squat programs going will lead down a dark alley.

What hasn't worked so far is her being coached. She sure got more coaching than you or I ever got right?

If it's a laziness things with the attempts, that can be corrected with just HTFU'n and working hard for position. But when you lack the basic sense of what that position is in the first place (watch the 50% vid, the exact same issues are apparent), you can't force your body there and only end up frustrated with a lack of progress.

Why does she have a bad understanding of the position though? She's a walking bag of cues in my opinion and she isn't squatting with any kind of feel she's trying to remember cues and do things she's meant to do. Here's a list of potential cues while squatting

Head back
shoulder blades tight
Hold air in the belly
break at the hips
knees out
don't let your knees drift forward
push throught he heels
spread the floor
fire glutes
elbows forward

And all to be mentally checked off whilst lowering yourself under pressure and searching for depth. It's akin to the memory game from Bruceys generation game the only difference is you're in tremendous pain while trying to remember the prizes.

Apart from the knees coming in the biggest thing I see if how much she breaks at the hips at the start. People who do that are obviously reciting this "sit back" BS that has spilled over from equipped powerlifting.

I just fear it's all overthought and more pointers will just confuse the hell out of her.

I hope he doesn't mind me using him as an example but Podge started of as a young lanky powerlifter with unruly knees. It actually looked like a giraffe had ben put into a car compactor at the bottom end. Now he's squatting 240kg and from following him he's pretty much done it my Smoloving and voluming the crap out of himself. Correct me if I'm wrong Podge.

G86

kevpants wrote: »

What hasn't worked so far is her being coached. She sure got more coaching than you or I ever got right?

I've 2 points on this:
1. You're right that I my mind is in 10 different directions everytime I squat just trying to remember everything, and it seems if I get one thing right I still manage to mess up something else!

2. Coaching DID work at one stage, I mean my squat went from 70 to 80kg in IP, and before that it had increased fairly steadily with some pointers when I first joined RAW. In fairness, any bad habits I had from first learning to squat were already ingrained at that stage, but I think I improved on them a bit..otherwise that increase and the current decrease makes no sense! Thing is, I've changed my technique so many times now that I don't really know what way is best!! Low bar worked for me and helped me correct my form when I first started, but then when I came back to it after screwing my quad it just didn't work anymore. If I didn't 'good morning' it, I literally couldn't squat without falling over. Switched to high bar - and hey presto - no falling and much less of a forward lean. But now, I'm being told my tech is still sh1t...so I don't know where to go from here!

Hanley

kevpants wrote: »

Are you breaking up with me?

Woah woah woah - chill the f*ck out there. Can't we just not agree on something without this breaking up threat?! 'sake.

She's one of the most intensively coached people I've seen and the advice is to go back to the drawing board? Like she said she seems to fall apart when she doesn't have a coach on hand. Reeks of overthinking to me. She probably has 100 cues echoing in her head and its really only possible to keep one or two in your mind at a time.

Agree (can we get back together now!?). I think the only two cues that matters for squatting are knees out and chest up, that should fix most problems.

Being so intenstively coached is at the core of the issue, she never learned to do it for herself. Which I'll come back to below...

Yeah her knees collapse like everyone else who lives in the 21st century and has some kind of glue/hip issue but if she kep thinking about pushing her knees out during her sets then it would improve massively. Too many cues in her head again, I think a clear mind and just thinking about her knees would really help.

Yeah, but try to force your body to do that with max weight and what happens?! (nothing - the weight goes nowhere)

I don't think it's an activation/mobility thing either because of the amount of it that was done in IP (I don't remember you squat from there G, did you have the same issues?). Which brings it back to my point that it's not a specific weakness, it's a motor pattern thing.

What hasn't worked so far is her being coached. She sure got more coaching than you or I ever got right?

Yup, and therein lies the problem. Dun dun dun....

Back to my point above. Too much coaching and there's the risk stuff doesn't become natural. Or that if you're no longer in a coached position, you can't figure things out for yourself. Learning how this stuff links together thru my own experimentation is why I think I understand powerlifting and training so well, and tend to be able to communicate it decently.

If I got to the same level of proficiency (sp?) and was spoon fed everything and never had to play about, I don't think I'd have as good an understanding at all. I'm sure you'd agree? (I'm getting you to start saying yes so I can drop a big one on ya and have you agree to that too... )

Why does she have a bad understanding of the position though? She's a walking bag of cues in my opinion and she isn't squatting with any kind of feel she's trying to remember cues and do things she's meant to do. Here's a list of potential cues while squatting

Head back
shoulder blades tight
Hold air in the belly
break at the hips
knees out
don't let your knees drift forward
push throught he heels
spread the floor
fire glutes
elbows forward

And all to be mentally checked off whilst lowering yourself under pressure and searching for depth. It's akin to the memory game from Bruceys generation game the only difference is you're in tremendous pain while trying to remember the prizes.

I'll add 50% more cues onto my previous recommendation, I don't tihnk you knee'd to worry anymore after that...

1) at the start - weight on heels
2) at the bottom - chest up
3) at the bottom -knees out

Apart from the knees coming in the biggest thing I see if how much she breaks at the hips at the start. People who do that are obviously reciting this "sit back" BS that has spilled over from equipped powerlifting.

This. I'm sure you've heard me b*tch repeatedly about it too.

I just fear it's all overthought and more pointers will just confuse the hell out of her.

Agree. But I wasn't suggesting a million and one cues. I know when I'm coaching I'll go with 1-2 max per session.

I hope he doesn't mind me using him as an example but Podge started of as a young lanky powerlifter with unruly knees. It actually looked like a giraffe had ben put into a car compactor at the bottom end. Now he's squatting 240kg and from following him he's pretty much done it my Smoloving and voluming the crap out of himself. Correct me if I'm wrong Podge.

...and he's a dude. They can't even multi task!!

G86

Hanley wrote: »

I don't think it's an activation/mobility thing either because of the amount of it that was done in IP (I don't remember you squat from there G, did you have the same issues?). Which brings it back to my point that it's not a specific weakness, it's a motor pattern thing.



Y\

See this is what confuses me.

It got better in IP, it went up 10kg and I was repping 5x5s at 65kg with my 1rm at 80kg.

Then I had a mini disaster with that deadlift and my quad; didn't do any lower body for a while, and when I came back to it I couldn't squat over 55kg and it looked nasty as hell at that.

Then, IP closed, carried on myself but with the same sh1t form which went uncorrected and just got worse.

Got to the stage where I couldn't squat with an empty bar without falling over.

Then got some help with it a few weeks ago, did some mobility work, switched to high bar, and went from falling over with zero on the bar to a 60kg squat in an hour.

Now I'm stuck again because I figured that was a good base to start Smolov from, but apparently it's not!

Help?!

Parsley

not that you need another 2 cents being thrown in here, as i think too many people with too many suggestions is kinda what the problem is with your squatting...

but anyway. my squats used to be all unbalanced and fugly, knees caving in everywhere. my max was a dodgy 160kg. I started doing advanced 5x5 concentrating on pushing my knees out. It was squatting 3 times a week, started off light so i could really force the knees out, and got heavier over 4 weeks. then 2 weeks into the second cycle (so 6 weeks after starting 5x5) i was squatting 155kg x5 - bigger numbers than i'd ever managed before with much much better form - AND it's something that hasn't left me over a dodgy year of sparse training since then.

G86

Parsley wrote: »

not that you need another 2 cents being thrown in here, as i think too many people with too many suggestions is kinda what the problem is with your squatting...

but anyway. my squats used to be all unbalanced and fugly, knees caving in everywhere. my max was a dodgy 160kg. I started doing advanced 5x5 concentrating on pushing my knees out. It was squatting 3 times a week, started off light so i could really force the knees out, and got heavier over 4 weeks. then 2 weeks into the second cycle (so 6 weeks after starting 5x5) i was squatting 155kg x5 - bigger numbers than i'd ever managed before with much much better form - AND it's something that hasn't left me over a dodgy year of sparse training since then.

Cheers Parsley, it's always good to get some input from personal exps. Were you including deadlifting etc in that also? See, when I refer to 5x5, I'm not talking about the actual program, I just mean using that rep scheme.

Parsley

G86 wrote: »

Cheers Parsley, it's always good to get some input from personal exps. Were you including deadlifting etc in that also? See, when I refer to 5x5, I'm not talking about the actual program, I just mean using that rep scheme.

i was doing bill starr's advanced 5x5 anyway for the record, it's pretty well worked out.

deadlifting once a week on wednesday, with light squatting.

it's all in here, with a spreadsheet: http://www.muscleandbrawn.com/bill-starr-advanced-5x5-workout.html

kevpants

Hanley wrote: »

If I got to the same level of proficiency (sp?) and was spoon fed everything and never had to play about, I don't think I'd have as good an understanding at all. I'm sure you'd agree? (I'm getting you to start saying yes so I can drop a big one on ya and have you agree to that too... )

This was pretty much the reasoning behind my point. Maybe she needs to stand on her own two feet and think about squatting rather than try to remember how everyone told her how to squat.

I'd recommend two cues.

1. Keep tight
2. Knees out

And I'd recommend squatting every session for the next few weeks. That's why I suggested a lighter Smolov. The loading is grand in Smolov so long as the max is not set too high.

I know what you mean Hanley when you say you coulld fix her in a few sessions. Just think the above approach might work since she doesn't really have another option at the moment. Other than not squatting.

kevpants

Parsley wrote: »

my squats used to be all unbalanced and fugly, knees caving in everywhere. my max was a dodgy 160kg. I started doing advanced 5x5 concentrating on pushing my knees out. It was squatting 3 times a week, started off light so i could really force the knees out, and got heavier over 4 weeks. then 2 weeks into the second cycle (so 6 weeks after starting 5x5) i was squatting 155kg x5 - bigger numbers than i'd ever managed before with much much better form - AND it's something that hasn't left me over a dodgy year of sparse training since then.

That's what I'm talking about. Take your worst squatting habit, concentrate on not doing it, and squat often. You won't be perfect at the end but no one is. You'll be stronger though.

Hanley

kevpants wrote: »

This was pretty much the reasoning behind my point. Maybe she needs to stand on her own two feet and think about squatting rather than try to remember how everyone told her how to squat.

I'd recommend two cues.

1. Keep tight
2. Knees out

And I'd recommend squatting every session for the next few weeks. That's why I suggested a lighter Smolov. The loading is grand in Smolov so long as the max is not set too high.

I know what you mean Hanley when you say you coulld fix her in a few sessions. Just think the above approach might work since she doesn't really have another option at the moment. Other than not squatting.

Sooooo do we agree?!

I don't like the "tight" cue because most people don't k ow what it means. Girls especially in my exp. if you can establish what it means tho and get them doing it regularly it's spot on.

G86

I figured if I did Smolov, I could run it with the strength days I do at the mo, i.e. keep things as they are but just do Smolov for my squat.

If I do Bill Starrs 5x5 then I'm doing a whole new program, which is now confusing me again.

In my regular training ,when I say '5x5', I simply mean reps - because when I squat/bench/DL it's always 5x5. My problem with that and my squat is that 1. It's getting boring, 2. It's going no-where, 3. I've no idea what my limits are/what numbers I should be pushing for so I feel I'm not pushing enough.

So basically, I just wanted to do something extra for my squat, without having to give up some element of cond/cardio and my regular training pattern.

Parsley

kevpants wrote: »

That's what I'm talking about. Take your worst squatting habit, concentrate on not doing it, and squat often. You won't be perfect at the end but no one is. You'll be stronger though.

yip. worked for me.

G86 wrote: »

I figured if I did Smolov, I could run it with the strength days I do at the mo, i.e. keep things as they are but just do Smolov for my squat.

If I do Bill Starrs 5x5 then I'm doing a whole new program, which is now confusing me again.

it's a pretty simple programme really. 3 days a week, 2 days of cardio in there shouldn't be hard.

In my regular training ,when I say '5x5', I simply mean reps - because when I squat/bench/DL it's always 5x5. My problem with that and my squat is that 1. It's getting boring, 2. It's going no-where, 3. I've no idea what my limits are/what numbers I should be pushing for so I feel I'm not pushing enough.

well with this 5x5 you've one moderately heavy 5x5 straight sets squatting with 5x5 ramped bench (heavy), one day with light 5x5 squats, incline bench and deadlifts, and one heavy, ramped 5x5 squat day with straight 5x5 bench.

aaaand there's core/pullups/assistance work in there.

if you need to concentrate on keeping things simple it's what i'd do. along with what kev said about just concentrating on one cue at a time, getting rid of one bad habit at a time, i don't see anything going wrong...

G86

Parsley wrote: »

yip. worked for me.

it's a pretty simple programme really. 3 days a week, 2 days of cardio in there shouldn't be hard.


well with this 5x5 you've one moderately heavy 5x5 straight sets squatting with 5x5 ramped bench (heavy), one day with light 5x5 squats, incline bench and deadlifts, and one heavy, ramped 5x5 squat day with straight 5x5 bench.

aaaand there's core/pullups/assistance work in there.

if you need to concentrate on keeping things simple it's what i'd do. along with what kev said about just concentrating on one cue at a time, getting rid of one bad habit at a time, i don't see anything going wrong...

Thanks for that, makes sense.

Tbh, I'm happy with my programming apart from wanting to sort out the squat, so I didn't really want to change it apart from doing extra work on that. I have an underlying template to what I do now, and I understand it, so I'm slow to switch to anything else.

I read the link properly there, and still don't have a clue weights to start off from/how to progress them - but I'm guessing that's in the spreadsheet? No excel at mo so can't look at it, but I'll check it later.

Thud

Parsley wrote: »

i was doing bill starr's advanced 5x5 anyway for the record, it's pretty well worked out.

deadlifting once a week on wednesday, with light squatting.

it's all in here, with a spreadsheet: http://www.muscleandbrawn.com/bill-starr-advanced-5x5-workout.html

Bill Starr Intermediate 5x5 (and spreadsheet) is on here might be a bit easier, sets are ramped (start sets at lower weight and work up) than straight sets (same weight for all 5 sets) in the advanced

http://nutribody.com/blog/post/Bill-Starrs-Intermediate-5x5-Workout.aspx

G86

Just having a look at those spreadsheets now.

Tried to just work off the 3 cues today - get 'tight', chest out, knees out. I noticed that the first thing I normally do is stick my ass out -so I concentrated on just dropping down instead. Now, I'm taking 'get tight' to mean keeping everything together so that it's one movement, and the way I did that was keeping my abs tight. Is that what you guys meant?

Worked up to 40kg like that and it was feeling better, but once I hit 40 it started to go on me. I started coming off my heels and going forward. So dropped back down to 30kg, did another 5x5, and worked back to 3x5 at 35kg. Narrowing my stance a bit helped too.

Going by that, I'm not sure there's much point in me doing Smolov and getting progressively heavier if I'm going to be repping the way I was at that 40kg. It wasn't terrible, but the 30/35kg was better. Might be better to focus on getting it right at 50% first - much as it pains me:rolleyes: On the other side, I could nail it at 50% and then be fcukd soon as I try to move up to 70/80%, so could wind up a waste of time!

Edit: Is there a excel sheet in metric?

Thud

G86 wrote: »

Edit: Is there a excel sheet in metric?

haven't come across one unfortunately.
Are you handy with excel?
The progression is in percentages terms(not lb increments) so you can input your kg 1RM's in the yellow boxes.

The figures it calc's will be rounded to the nearest unit. You can go off that and round up/down in your head
or
copy the table and use the "=CEILING(D59,2.5)" formula for each cell to get it to round to the nearest 2.5

G86

Thud wrote: »

haven't come across one unfortunately.
Are you handy with excel?
The progression is in percentages terms(not lb increments) so you can input your kg 1RM's in the yellow boxes.

The figures it calc's will be rounded to the nearest unit. You can go off that and round up/down in your head
or
copy the table and use the "=CEILING(D59,2.5)" formula for each cell to get it to round to the nearest 2.5

Cheers, did that with the advanced one.

Just going to work off that now and see how it goes, if I keep second guessing myself every time I decide on something I'll never get anything started!

Cheers for all the input, greatly appreciated