50cent surcharge for using my laser card

m1ckd33

went into a local shop spent €10 on grocerys and went to pay by laser card and was told there was a 50 cent surcharge . when i asked about the charge ,i was told it was to cover cost of laser transaction for the retailer, any one else come across this before.

Salt001

Never heard that one before but I do know some retailers have a minimum limit before you can pay by card.

dudara

It's quite common for smaller retailers to insist on a minimum value for laser transactions. In the past it was quite common to pay a small fee for getting a mobile phone top-up.

Cabaal

Its very common, normally for anything under 5e or 10e though

ScouseMouse

Yep. Heard of this before.

Only in small shops that cannot really afford it though.

convert

Smaller shops tend to do this. There's a coffee shop across the road from where I work that has a sign up saying it'll cost 20c per transaction if the value of the purchase is less than 5 euro. A lot of spar shops, etc. won't allow laser to be used for transactions under a fiver.

dotsman

50c on a transaction for €10 seems a bit harsh. Most just set a minimum level at which they will accept a card. Hopefully this will change in the summer with the roll-out of contact-less payments which will be much cheaper for the retailers.

In the meantime, this shop has obviously followed the Ryanair model! What next? displaying prices before VAT, admin charges and penalties for buying bulky items?

fl4pj4ck

Visa's rules forbids such thing:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_Inc.#Operating_regulations

Same for Mastercard:
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090725175721AAwA4X0

Of course most businesses don't give a hoot about those. I'm not certain about Laser.
It's worth mentioning that in some States in US surcharges are forbidden by law, I don't know why consumers don't fight for it here in Europe.

hussey

fl4pj4ck wrote: »

Visa's rules forbids such thing:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_Inc.#Operating_regulations

Same for Mastercard:
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090725175721AAwA4X0

Of course most businesses don't give a hoot about those. I'm not certain about Laser.
It's worth mentioning that in some States in US surcharges are forbidden by law, I don't know why consumers don't fight for it here in Europe.

They can get around it by renaming it a 'transaction charge'
According to ryanair they don't have a credit card charge only an admin fee

bigjohn66

My local spar shop lost a lot of business because of this. There was me and I know of two people on my street that won’t use the shop at all now.

I no longer smoke but when I did I would use the shop on my way home every evening. On the odd evening I would only get my cigarettes but most of the time I would get milk, bread or something for dinner. The evenings I only wanted the cigarettes I would not reach their €10 euro limit and they wanted 50c for the transaction. I worker it out that I spent more than €5,000 a year.

Their loss.

Gillo

dotsman wrote: »

50c on a transaction for €10 seems a bit harsh. Most just set a minimum level at which they will accept a card. Hopefully this will change in the summer with the roll-out of contact-less payments which will be much cheaper for the retailers.

In the meantime, this shop has obviously followed the Ryanair model! What next? displaying prices before VAT, admin charges and penalties for buying bulky items?

Surely there will still be a fee (to the retailer) for contact-less technology?
If fairness to the shop in question they may well be losing money if they don't charge the fee.
Why not get around it by buying a few extra things that you'll need in the next few days?

ScouseMouse

bigjohn66 wrote: »

My local spar shop lost a lot of business because of this. There was me and I know of two people on my street that won’t use the shop at all now.

I no longer smoke but when I did I would use the shop on my way home every evening. On the odd evening I would only get my cigarettes but most of the time I would get milk, bread or something for dinner. The evenings I only wanted the cigarettes I would not reach their €10 euro limit and they wanted 50c for the transaction. I worker it out that I spent more than €5,000 a year.

Their loss.

So you spent 100 euro a week in a spar shop?

Thats more than most people spend in the supermarket. :eek:

Are you sure of your figures?

ShatterProof

bigjohn66 wrote: »

My local spar shop lost a lot of business because of this. There was me and I know of two people on my street that won’t use the shop at all now.

I no longer smoke but when I did I would use the shop on my way home every evening. On the odd evening I would only get my cigarettes but most of the time I would get milk, bread or something for dinner. The evenings I only wanted the cigarettes I would not reach their €10 euro limit and they wanted 50c for the transaction. I worker it out that I spent more than €5,000 a year.

Their loss.

what is the profit on a packet of cigarettes ? if you take the admin charge out of it do they still make a profit ?

(I dont have the answers maybe somebody else does)

gremha

The retailer is charges 20¢ per laser transaction as far as I know

ScouseMouse

All figures approximate.

laser charge 20 - 25c
Visa debit charge about 25 -30c
Machine to process them €18 per month.
Dedicated Broadband line €20 ???

I refused to top up a gas card today as they offered me a laser card in payment

Gas card earns me about 15c. Take away the fees above.....

Cigarettes get me maybe 50c to 70c per packet. Take away the fees above.

Add some wages for the staff member.

Do the sums folks.

superscouse

superscouse wrote: »

So you spent 100 euro a week in a spar shop?

Thats more than most people spend in the supermarket. :eek:

Are you sure of your figures?

9 euro cigs every day plus misc...

dotsman

Gillo wrote: »

Surely there will still be a fee (to the retailer) for contact-less technology?
If fairness to the shop in question they may well be losing money if they don't charge the fee.
Why not get around it by buying a few extra things that you'll need in the next few days?

The contactless cards are aimed at purchases below the €20 mark and will have much lower charges than standard laser/visa charges (maybe about half the normal charge).

I agree with a shop not accepting current debit/credit cards for transactions of a few euro, but in the OPs case, it was €10. Poor decision on the shops as there was still a profit to be made - some profit is better than no profit.

Gillo

dotsman wrote: »

The contactless cards are aimed at purchases below the €20 mark and will have much lower charges than standard laser/visa charges (maybe about half the normal charge).

I agree with a shop not accepting current debit/credit cards for transactions of a few euro, but in the OPs case, it was €10. Poor decision on the shops as there was still a profit to be made - some profit is better than no profit.

I'm lost then, what's the point of a contact card for smaller payments if you still then have a laser for larger payments? Maybe I just misunderstood you.
Interestingly, I tried to top up a Leap card with a visa debit and was told I can't use a card to do it. The guy behind the counter suggested if I bought something they could give me cash-back. Interesting way if getting around it.

ScouseMouse

Gillo wrote: »

I'm lost then, what's the point of a contact card for smaller payments if you still then have a laser for larger payments? Maybe I just misunderstood you.
Interestingly, I tried to top up a Leap card with a visa debit and was told I can't use a card to do it. The guy behind the counter suggested if I bought something they could give me cash-back. Interesting way if getting around it.

This comes back to my earlier post. Leap gives the shop about 3%. So, if you top up your leap card by a tenner, the shop earns 30c approx.

But you pay by card and the visa debit charge is 25c- 30c. You mentioned whats the point?

INDEED. What is the point? Why would a shop earn 30c just to hand it (plus the associated costs) to the bank.

Whats the point indeed!

ScouseMouse

dotsman wrote: »

The contactless cards are aimed at purchases below the €20 mark and will have much lower charges than standard laser/visa charges (maybe about half the normal charge).

I know thats what they have said, but I will believe it when I see it.

Rulmeq

ShatterProof wrote: »

what is the profit on a packet of cigarettes ? if you take the admin charge out of it do they still make a profit ?

(I dont have the answers maybe somebody else does)

5% to 8% depending on where and when the retailer buys them (it can be as low as 2 or 3% if they buy in a cash and carry). Generally for a few weeks after the budget the margins are reduced (they do this to make up for the retailers who speculate and buy in extra before the budget)

8% of €9 is 72c, but any product being sold for less than 18% is a loss maker to begin with (18% is the break-even point for small retailers)

MagicMarker

bluewolf wrote: »

9 euro cigs every day plus misc...

Mug's game.

Personally, I would gladly pay a small charge on transactions under a certain amount (€5-10), as I don't really like the alternative of having to withdraw €20 from an atm machine just to buy a coffee or a pack of gum.

Charging a transaction fee for all transactions is very cheeky though, especially when shops get away with the likes of increasing the price of a can of coke by 5c because of a 2% VAT hike!! :rolleyes:

maxer68

dotsman wrote: »

50c on a transaction for €10 seems a bit harsh. Most just set a minimum level at which they will accept a card. Hopefully this will change in the summer with the roll-out of contact-less payments which will be much cheaper for the retailers.

In the meantime, this shop has obviously followed the Ryanair model! What next? displaying prices before VAT, admin charges and penalties for buying bulky items?

Problem for shops is too many people would use it for buying 1 pack cigs. A retailer makes about 60c-70c on a packet, so a 25c - 30c +vat charge by the bank on a laser transaction almost wipes out the tiny profit.

Most stores say no transactions under €10 - at least this store is gving an option.

The new contactless (under €15) system that will be rolled out this year will change this as the cost will be single digit cent.

ScouseMouse

maxer68 wrote: »

Problem for shops is too many people would use it for buying 1 pack cigs. A retailer makes about 60c-70c on a packet, so a 25c - 30c +vat charge by the bank on a laser transaction almost wipes out the tiny profit.

Most stores say no transactions under €10 - at least this store is gving an option.

The new contactless (under €15) system that will be rolled out this year will change this as the cost will be single digit cent.

Still don't believe it. I heard something similar about the visa debit card, but when that came out the fees were about 25% higher than the laser card.

We shall see.

dotsman

Gillo wrote: »

I'm lost then, what's the point of a contact card for smaller payments if you still then have a laser for larger payments? Maybe I just misunderstood you.
Interestingly, I tried to top up a Leap card with a visa debit and was told I can't use a card to do it. The guy behind the counter suggested if I bought something they could give me cash-back. Interesting way if getting around it.

The contact-less card is a debit card that replaces your laser card. For minor transactions (under €20), you use the contact-less element* (ie as smart card). The advantage is that it is very fast (no entering a card into the POS, entering the PIN calling back to the bank, authorising the transaction etc) and there is a much smaller charge to the shop. For purchases over €20, the existing Pin & chip element is used (and higher charge to the shop), but it is all the one card.

*My understanding is that the odd (ie 1 in 10) small transactions will still need to go through chip and pin as a security measure, otherwise a stolen contact-less card could be used for many small purchases adding up to a large sum. Whether this will be random or after a set number of contact-less transactions - I don't know.

superscouse wrote: »

I know thats what they have said, but I will believe it when I see it.

superscouse wrote: »

Still don't believe it. I heard something similar about the visa debit card, but when that came out the fees were about 25% higher than the laser card.

We shall see.

I believe that both Visa and the banks will ensure that the charges for contact-less transactions are sufficiently cheap so as to gain momentum (if it wasn't in the shop's interest, then they wouldn't bother offering it, therefore customers wouldn't bother using it). Although, and I've already said it many times on this forum, their is a massive problem with the current trend of allowing visa to gain a complete monopoly over the debit card market and that they could (once the monopoly is well established) push up their prices at a later stage.

Just a final note regarding card charges. From a shop's perspective if you are charged 20c for a laser transaction, the cost is not simply 20c. As they are not dealing with cash, they are not accumulating hte costs associated with cash (security/deposits/change etc) so it does work out a bit cheaper than the 20c in the long run.

Shelflife

Just a final note regarding card charges. From a shop's perspective if you are charged 20c for a laser transaction, the cost is not simply 20c. As they are not dealing with cash, they are not accumulating hte costs associated with cash (security/deposits/change etc) so it does work out a bit cheaper than the 20c in the long run.

The above is true, but you also have terminal rental, paper roll costs, phone line or broadband costs and electricity costs in running the terminal.

I also agree with superscouse in relation to the costs of any new paperless technology, the banks and card companies will try and screw over the retailers and in particular the smaller retailer for as much costs as they possible can.

lividduck

m1ckd33 wrote: »

went into a local shop spent €10 on grocerys and went to pay by laser card and was told there was a 50 cent surcharge . when i asked about the charge ,i was told it was to cover cost of laser transaction for the retailer, any one else come across this before.

Its illegal, a small shop near me tried it after I moved here, I contacted Laser with the details the bank who issued my card, the surcharge was gone within 48 hours. Under their merchant services agreement a shop cannot levy a charge for using Laser, the can however place a minimum limit on the sale value for a Laser transaction.
The same shop tried to do the same with Paypoint transcatios until I reported that also.

ScouseMouse

lividduck wrote: »

Its illegal, a small shop near me tried it after I moved here, I contacted Laser with the details the bank who issued my card, the surcharge was gone within 48 hours. Under their merchant services agreement a shop cannot levy a charge for using Laser, the can however place a minimum limit on the sale value for a Laser transaction.
The same shop tried to do the same with Paypoint transcatios until I reported that also.

So you would accept the shop not allowing you to pay with laser then as you had not bought enough?

Or declining your custom completely?

It could happen.

Sam Mac

Online places do it loads. Just-eat.ie take 50c when you pay by card.

Gurgle

dudara wrote: »

In the past it was quite common to pay a small fee for getting a mobile phone top-up.

Yes, it was.

Then we, the great free people of Ireland made that practise almost completely disappear by voting with our feet and not buying credit in the shops charging extra.

I think that vote will need repeating with this laser surcharge.

mikemac1

dudara wrote: »

In the past it was quite common to pay a small fee for getting a mobile phone top-up.

Shops weren't paying a transaction fee every time though which they do with credit cards.

That dispute was when the operators cut the margins and some retail lobby group got organized and shops around Ireland put up signs and added a surcharge to get their margin back
Remember those signs? Calling the mobile operators greedy and the shop didn't want to charge you but they felt like they had to. Like I care

They were still making money on every sale, they just wanted a higher percentage.

As said above, customers wouldn't stand for it and there were places like xtravision with no surcharge.
And some shops had signs proudly displaying they didn't charge extra. As if we should be grateful :rolleyes:

Nearly gone now, consumer power