Time signatures

cloptrop

Im not even remotely good musically , but I am trying , maybe one day Ill write a christmas jingle and live off it , but until then I need you guys help.
You all helped me great understanding what scales were .
Really helped me in my quest to write one good song < can you tell Ive never had a lesson before lol>
Anyway I was just wondering what people mean when they say this song is 4/4 or 7/4 . Like the explanation anyone gives you is oh & beats per 4 measures or some **** like that. This floats over my head like a baloon in an aeroplane .
Has anyone got a laymans terms explanation.
Like I know pink floyds money is in 7/4 <or something> and I know most rock songs are in 4/4 . I can play money on bass fairly handy , in time but I have no Idea why its different timewise to anyother song , maybe Im missing something totally obvious , maybe Im stupid , I dont mind .
But I really would appreciate help with this one.

rcaz

A time signature tells you how many beats are in a measure of music. The bottom number of the signature tells you what notes we're counting to measure in (x/2 = half notes, or minims; x/4 = quarter notes, or crochets; x/8 = eighth notes, or quavers). The top number tells you how many of those notes are in the bar. The whole fraction idea is based off the idea of a whole note being one measure in 4/4 (4/4 is sometimes called Common Time, and just denoted by a 'C' instead of '4/4'), and every subdivision of that measure results in shorter notes. One whole note = 2 half notes = 4 quarter notes = 8 eighth notes, etc...

Yeah, most rock songs are in 4/4, as with the vast majority of Western music. You've also probably heard a lot of 3/4 stuff too - waltzes, like The Blue Danube (which you've definitely heard a few times) are in 3/4. So 4/4 is built off multiples of 2 and 3/4 is built off multiples of 3. 2s and 3s are the basic building blocks of Simple time signatures.

So if Money is in 7/4, it means there are 7 quarter notes per bar (Yeah, 7 quarters doesn't make any sense, but remember all this got its names from measuring off 4/4). Try clicking your finger along with the song - the riff starts over after every 7 clicks. Each of those clicks stands for one quarter note. 7/4 is a Complex time signature, meaning it can't be divided up into groups of twos or threes.

You've probably heard loads of music in 6/8 too, like a typical ballad song;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XobHupqgNu4

But 6/8 isn't as straightforward as 4/4 or 3/4. I won't try explain it here but look up 'Compound Time Signatures' when you want to learn a bit more.

There's a lot of info on this stuff on Wikipedia if you fancy doing some reading - I think this sort of stuff is really cool to understand. If get a good understanding of rhythm your musicianship will improve no end, no matter what you play or write.

cloptrop

So when you say money pink floys is 7/4
This means I will click my fingers 4 times when its playing then the riff starts again, I can feel that yes
But the 7 part , does this mean each note is held for one seventh of this time, to think I nearly did honours maths for my leaving cert at one stage , why didnt they teach me this.

Echoes675

A time signature is split into 2 different bits of info. The top number is quantity of notes per bar and the bottom indicates type of note. So simply, in a time signature of 4/4 the top number tells us that there are 4 of the notes defined by the bottom number per bar. So 3/4 would be 3 of the notes defined by the bottom number per bar. 7/4 of the notes defined by the bottom number per bar. etc...
Have a look at this picture:


The whole note (also known as a semibreve) at the top is the longest of the conventional notes. The other shorter notes are all defined as fractions of this note. So when you hear "quarter note" it is not a quarter of a bar but a quarter or this "whole note". In our time signature the lower note matches one of these types. So as you can see, a 2 on the bottom would be half notes; a 4 would be quarter notes and so on.
So if we go back to our 4/4 this tells us that there are 4 quarter notes per bar. 3/4 tells us that there are 3 quarter notes in a bar.
Also to get a little deeper: 6/8 indicates 6 eighth notes per bar. 3/2 is 3 half notes per bar.

Hope this helps.

cloptrop

Thats great help lads , one more question , could a bar have like two half notes and two quater notes in it?
Would it just be written as 6 quater notes? 6/4

Echoes675

cloptrop wrote: »

Thats great help lads , one more question , could a bar have like two half notes and two quater notes in it?
Would it just be written as 6 quater notes? 6/4

Of course. Your bar can have any kind of note in it, the time signature simply defines the beat and what the bar ultimately adds up to. So in your example a time signature could be perfectly adequate. Your bar could also be marked as 3/2.

Edit: It all depends on how a bar is supposed to feel. To get a little more advanced it depends where the strong and weak beats are in a bar. The best way to imagine this, its something you will already do instinctively, is when listening to a song in 4/4 you will feel where the start of a bar is due to the first beat being the strongest. You will probably notice this when tapping your foot to a tune. In 4/4 time the strong beats are 1 and 3 so weak beats are 3 and 4. Beat 1 is the strongest and 3 is less strong but more so than 2 and 4. (Hope that makes sense)
The best illustration is the difference between 2/4 and 4/4 time signatures. 2/4 is a march so imagine yourself marching to the beat, the strong beat is the 1 and 2 is weak...so 1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2 = strong, weak,strong, weak,strong, weak = left, right,left, right,left, right etc...
In 4/4 the 3 is weaker so the feel is different as I mentioned above. Both of these bars can be made up of quarter notes but the important thing is the feel of the bar.

There are exceptions to the above, but the description above is valid for most 4/4 and 2/4 music.
One exception is swing where the strong notes are the 2 and 4 instead of the conventional 1 and 3.

cloptrop

Excellent ,
Im starting to see the importance of musical theory now , Its just dawned on me why sheet music is so much better than struggling with tabs and stuff.
Itd have saved me so much wasted time if I had of started getting my head around this as soon as I got a guitar , rather than just pretending it didnt exist.

Echoes675

Music theory isn't hard. It just takes time and breaking it down into bite size chunks makes it manageable. In another thread I recommended a book for learning. Here's the quote:

"If you want to learn about theory I'd suggest either getting a teacher or buying yourself a book. I bought the following book before I began my music degree and it was a MASSIVE help! The book helped me fill in a few holes in my theory. It takes you from the basics of learning to read the notes on the staff up to Bach Chorales (at the advanced harmony end of the scale) at a pace that is easy to follow. It can seem like a long process, but a step at a time. Once you have the knowledge, it will be invaluable and completely work the effort!

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Right-Way-Read-Music/dp/0716020084"

cloptrop

eoin_mcg wrote: »

Music theory isn't hard. It just takes time and breaking it down into bite size chunks makes it manageable. In another thread I recommended a book for learning. Here's the quote:

"If you want to learn about theory I'd suggest either getting a teacher or buying yourself a book. I bought the following book before I began my music degree and it was a MASSIVE help! The book helped me fill in a few holes in my theory. It takes you from the basics of learning to read the notes on the staff up to Bach Chorales (at the advanced harmony end of the scale) at a pace that is easy to follow. It can seem like a long process, but a step at a time. Once you have the knowledge, it will be invaluable and completely work the effort!

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Right-Way-Re...4547154&sr=1-2"

something wrong with the link

Echoes675

yeah, it didn't copy the whole link the 1st time for some reason? Anyway, here it is:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Right-Way-Read-Music/dp/0716020084

Rigsby

This link shows the basics of rhythm. The added bonus is being able to actually hear the different timings.

http://www.hoerl.com/Music/music3_rhythm.html

18AD

Loads of good advice already. This doesn't add much to what's been said, but it's a great course to watch for anyone.

http://oyc.yale.edu/music/listening-to-music/

Just skip straight to the rhythm classes.

Some other potentially useful stuff:
http://classic.musictheory.net/
http://www.practicesightreading.com/

evolving_doors

cloptrop wrote: »

So when you say money pink floys is 7/4
This means I will click my fingers 4 times when its playing then the riff starts again, I can feel that yes
But the 7 part , does this mean each note is held for one seventh of this time, to think I nearly did honours maths for my leaving cert at one stage , why didnt they teach me this.

in maths terms you've mixed up the top number with the bottom number in your fraction

7/4 = 1/4 + 1/4 + 1/4 + 1/4 + 1/4 + 1/4 +1/4 = 7 quarter notes in a bar

Hence you should do 7 clicks then the riff loops around again

Top number is the important one. its when the 1 comes back around again

Here's another famous odd time signature - Dave Brubeck 'Take 5'
the repeating idea starts again after you count 5

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1S_vA0ougg

cloptrop

Yeah Id just call that time signature 1122Three45 1122Three45
Its probably cause Im a bit soft in the head.

evolving_doors

Sorry to drag this up again but came across one of my favourite musicians of the mo. talking about 6/8 vs 3/4 and 4/4 ... (he's the guy who did "don't stop" for the IPad)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82TKQFGjMRI