FIREARMS LICENSING CASES BEFORE THE HIGH COURT

rowa

juice1304 wrote: »

So if everyone gets their licences dose that mean they will have to accept new applications for restricted short firearms? I've had a goo on me for an ed brown 1911 for as long as i can remember:o:D:D

Nope , the law didn't change, in fact as said earlier in this thread , it wouldn'd be a surprise if the laws were tightened further.

clivej

juice1304 wrote: »

So if everyone gets their licences dose that mean they will have to accept new applications for restricted short firearms? I've had a goo on me for an ed brown 1911 for as long as i can remember:o:D:D

rowa wrote: »

Nope , the law didn't change, in fact as said earlier in this thread , it wouldn'd be a surprise if the laws were tightened further.

Not now as the law is still there.

juice1304

i love how the law can see some people more equal than others, i would imagine they will just ban them completely now though. :mad:

clivej

juice1304 wrote: »

i love how the law can see some people more equal than others, i would imagine they will just ban them completely now though. :mad:

BUT watch this space

nod nod wink wink

sfakiaman

I won't believe it till my licence is in my sweaty little hand but I will sleep happier tonight.

iTom

Shooting enthusiasts settle legal challenge

on 31/01/2012 13:17:36

A legal challenge by shooting enthusiasts to the Garda refusal to grant them licences for restricted firearms has been settled.

The shooting enthusiasts had claimed their applications for restricted guns were being refused on a blanket basis by gardaí without adequate reasons.

The Garda authorities have denied claims of a fixed policy of refusing licences.

This morning at the High Court, when the matter was briefly mentioned before the court, Mr Justice John Hedigan was informed that the matter, which has been seen as an important test case had been resolved between the parties following talks.

The talks began last week after the judge expressed serious concerns over a Garda altering of licence application forms.

Mr Justice Hedigan had been considering three test cases out of almost 200 similar cases brought by shooting enthusiasts and supported by the National Association of Game Councils.

In the first test case brought by Dublin firearms dealer, Michael Walls, he is seeking orders quashing the October 2009 refusals by Garda Chief Superintendent Gerard Phillips, based at Ballymun Garda Station, to issue firearms certificates for seven pistols owned by him which are considered as restrictive firearms.

The court heard that Mr Walls is actively involved in shooting clubs and competitions, both nationally and internationally, for many years.

He claimed Chief Supt Phillips told him, in a letter, he was not satisfied Mr Walls had shown a good reason for requiring a restricted firearm where a non restricted firearm would not fulfil his purpose.

Mr Walls had asked for a meeting with the officer about the matter but was refused and he was also not provided with reasons for the decision, it was claimed.

In a replying affidavit to Mr Walls, Chief Supt Phillips said in October 2009, after considering Mr Walls application and having weighed all of the relevant considerations, he was not satisfied Mr Walls had a good reason for requiring the guns and also did not think a meeting with Mr Walls was necessary.

The Chief Supt said he also took into account other factors, including the number of gun-related crimes in his Garda division and the dangers handguns can pose to the public.

The hearing, which commenced earlier this month, had been put on hold until this morning after the Judge expressed concern a senior garda had altered a "substantial number" of application forms.

The Judge had invited the State authorities to consider whether they would stand over the Garda licensing system after hearing evidence a number of application forms were altered after the legal proceedings were initiated.

The judge found the evidence in two of the three test cases so far showed the recording process had not been correctly followed. The judge also said he wanted to hear what the State had to say about the altering of forms before continuing with the case.

Mr Justice Hedigan had found evidence in two of the three test cases so far showed the recording process had not been correctly followed. It had been admitted a substantial number of application forms had been altered, after having been previously signed and finalised, he said.

Large sections of the official application forms, whose completion is mandatory, had not been filled in, leading to licences being refused, the court heard. The judge noted this was described as due to "inadvertence", or an error, by the authorities.

The accuracy and integrity of licensing records was essential to the safe and effective operation of the scheme, he said.

"If the system put in place is not being followed, then both the granting and refusing process is clearly flawed".

Ireland's firearms laws were changed in 2009 to make it more difficult, on public safety and security grounds, to obtain a licence.

homerhop

Will the outcome of this case have any bearing on the supers who no matter what will issue licenses for .223's, grant mods or insist on reapplication every year if you have an S on your license?

badaj0z

My concern is that it is a pyrrhic victory. The shooters concerned may get their guns back in the short term but I believe that the either the whole existing system will be tightened up, starting with the next cycle of license "renewals"/ re-applications or with a whole new set of legislation being produced.

meathshooter1

hip hip hooray.what ever way you look at it ,its good news I'm one of the 168 its been a long road ,often demoralizing but there is now light at the end of the tunnel,stay positive .if I was a drinking man which I'm not Id be popping the cork on the champagne.;):D

gunhappy_ie

iTom wrote: »

Shooting enthusiasts settle legal challenge

on 31/01/2012 13:17:36

A legal challenge by shooting enthusiasts to the Garda refusal to grant them licences for restricted firearms has been settled.

The shooting enthusiasts had claimed their applications for restricted guns were being refused on a blanket basis by gardaí without adequate reasons.

The Garda authorities have denied claims of a fixed policy of refusing licences.

This morning at the High Court, when the matter was briefly mentioned before the court, Mr Justice John Hedigan was informed that the matter, which has been seen as an important test case had been resolved between the parties following talks.

The talks began last week after the judge expressed serious concerns over a Garda altering of licence application forms.

Mr Justice Hedigan had been considering three test cases out of almost 200 similar cases brought by shooting enthusiasts and supported by the National Association of Game Councils.

In the first test case brought by Dublin firearms dealer, Michael Walls, he is seeking orders quashing the October 2009 refusals by Garda Chief Superintendent Gerard Phillips, based at Ballymun Garda Station, to issue firearms certificates for seven pistols owned by him which are considered as restrictive firearms.

The court heard that Mr Walls is actively involved in shooting clubs and competitions, both nationally and internationally, for many years.

He claimed Chief Supt Phillips told him, in a letter, he was not satisfied Mr Walls had shown a good reason for requiring a restricted firearm where a non restricted firearm would not fulfil his purpose.

Mr Walls had asked for a meeting with the officer about the matter but was refused and he was also not provided with reasons for the decision, it was claimed.

In a replying affidavit to Mr Walls, Chief Supt Phillips said in October 2009, after considering Mr Walls application and having weighed all of the relevant considerations, he was not satisfied Mr Walls had a good reason for requiring the guns and also did not think a meeting with Mr Walls was necessary.

The Chief Supt said he also took into account other factors, including the number of gun-related crimes in his Garda division and the dangers handguns can pose to the public.

The hearing, which commenced earlier this month, had been put on hold until this morning after the Judge expressed concern a senior garda had altered a "substantial number" of application forms.

The Judge had invited the State authorities to consider whether they would stand over the Garda licensing system after hearing evidence a number of application forms were altered after the legal proceedings were initiated.

The judge found the evidence in two of the three test cases so far showed the recording process had not been correctly followed. The judge also said he wanted to hear what the State had to say about the altering of forms before continuing with the case.

Mr Justice Hedigan had found evidence in two of the three test cases so far showed the recording process had not been correctly followed. It had been admitted a substantial number of application forms had been altered, after having been previously signed and finalised, he said.

Large sections of the official application forms, whose completion is mandatory, had not been filled in, leading to licences being refused, the court heard. The judge noted this was described as due to "inadvertence", or an error, by the authorities.

The accuracy and integrity of licensing records was essential to the safe and effective operation of the scheme, he said.

"If the system put in place is not being followed, then both the granting and refusing process is clearly flawed".

Ireland's firearms laws were changed in 2009 to make it more difficult, on public safety and security grounds, to obtain a licence.

What wasnt included in that report was that a linguist examined the refusal letters and determined that as each case should be considered on its own merit, each refusal letter should be different..... That wasnt the case, the letters shared alot of similarities in spelling/grammer mistakes proving that they werent done by the individual CS ... possibly a copy and paste job !!

GH

Grizzly 45

badaj0z wrote: »

My concern is that it is a pyrrhic victory. The shooters concerned may get their guns back in the short term but I believe that the either the whole existing system will be tightened up, starting with the next cycle of license "renewals"/ re-applications or with a whole new set of legislation being produced.

Maybe,,maybe not!! Already one CS has fallen on his sword and "retired early"because of this debacle!!Simple fact was the CS were all caught together in the closet in their undies passing the lube around!:eek:.
I mean a school kid knows better in cogging a pals homework not to put it down word perfect either.Their own arrogance got the better of them!:rolleyes:

So if we have a repeat of 09/10 again with the liscensing it will show that they havent learnt their lesson and that it is simply sour grapes,and will be dealt with accordingly by us again.
Once the bill comes out for this,I douby aGS or DOJ will want to push this further.

Two good things have come out of this I think.
The Irish shooting community is finally learning to hit above its weight class.

The firearms granting system should now be taken totally out of the hands of the CS and the AGS as they have shown they are not to be trusted in this,and have now totally lost the confidence of the Irish shooting community.

Worse is,if they did this with firearms liscensing...What else have they done to other innocent parties??What is the possibility now that somone innocent is in jail or had their life wrecked by the "word of a cheif superintendant?"
Power corrupts and ultimate power ultimately corrupts.:(

meathshooter1

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Maybe,,maybe not!! Already one CS has fallen on his sword and "retired early"because of this debacle!!Simple fact was the CS were all caught together in the closet in their undies passing the lube around!:eek:.
I mean a school kid knows better in cogging a pals homework not to put it down word perfect either.Their own arrogance got the better of them!:rolleyes:

So if we have a repeat of 09/10 again with the liscensing it will show that they havent learnt their lesson and that it is simply sour grapes,and will be dealt with accordingly by us again.
Once the bill comes out for this,I douby aGS or DOJ will want to push this further.

Two good things have come out of this I think.
The Irish shooting community is finally learning to hit above its weight class.

The firearms granting system should now be taken totally out of the hands of the CS and the AGS as they have shown they are not to be trusted in this,and have now totally lost the confidence of the Irish shooting community.

Worse is,if they did this with firearms liscensing...What else have they done to other innocent parties??What is the possibility now that somone innocent is in jail or had their life wrecked by the "word of a cheif superintendant?"
Power corrupts and ultimate power ultimately corrupts.:(

+1 on that,thats why they wanted it settled,no judgement

johngalway

Firearms law, and firearms licensing both need to be transparent, and black and white instead of this opaque, nod and wink BS we're currently lumbered with.

iTom

badaj0z wrote: »

My concern is that it is a pyrrhic victory. The shooters concerned may get their guns back in the short term but I believe that the either the whole existing system will be tightened up, starting with the next cycle of license "renewals"/ re-applications or with a whole new set of legislation being produced.

Well I have this this evening that their will be new regelation to be brought in before the new license renewals come in.
How much truth is in I am not sure but it came from a good source.
I will be interesting to see what happens.

Grizzly 45

juice1304 wrote: »

i love how the law can see some people more equal than others, i would imagine they will just ban them completely now though. :mad:

Then you are into another problem of compensation for firearms confiscated..And ranges and alarms and ,and ,and.As well as court case proably to the EU on equality parity of citzenship.As in the case of the Dutch only allowing their citizens to buy now grass or hash in the coffeee shops.But now refusing all others..A good case of killing the golden egg laying goose. The precedent is if any other EU citzizen can own handguns under their countrys firearms rules,why is Ireland the exception yet again??
Not as simple as it looks,and they know now that we will fight in the courts,and that they had better clean up their act as this will come out in public view.

323

Great news.

iTom wrote: »

Well I have this this evening that their will be new regelation to be brought in before the new license renewals come in.
How much truth is in I am not sure but it came from a good source.
I will be interesting to see what happens.

Have had my worries about this but would prefare to go with meathshooter1's statement, "there is now light at the end of the tunnel,stay positive ."

meathshooter1

There will be hell to pay when they get the bill for this one,also the loss of there creditability which could have very serious implications to there careers.

badaj0z

Most posters here are concentrating on the micro view, who said or did what to whom and how the shooters triumphed. In reality, the establishment may have been embarrassed by the outcome. What counts from now on, as usual, is the top level political view. What do the higher echelons of the Gardai and the civil service think of this? I think they will not like it. What do the politicians think of this? That remains to be seen. If the politicians see votes in either making an issue or sweeping it under the carpet, that is what will happen. If the politicians are neutral, then the establishment will get it's revenge. We may yet see a good example of how a battle won may mean a war lost.

macnas

So what does this mean for the 168 cases? Will they have to reapply for their licenses under a new system?

hk

Grizzly,

While I agree with some of your sentiments I would have to disagree with other areas.
I think what happened is a disgrace in particular some of the revelations in court over the past week and even over the past number of years in the district court.
Having said that I do understand how some Chiefs may have been pressured into refusing certs from higher up and how some genuinely do not understand peoples need for the types of firearms in question, its very much a culture thing in a lot of ways.
What happened went way beyond a joke and in some cases was nothing more than a cynical two fingered salute to handgun owners. However I completely disagree with your sentiments regarding the GS involvement in the process and strongly disagree with your statement regarding the false imprisonment of innocent people. The GS will always have to have a central involvement in the process because there are plenty of people out there who should not have access to these firearms, a principal i support for both the protection of society and our sport.

Regarding other EU countries, thats exactly the point they are other countries and as such are entitled to introduce any domestic laws which are in line with the overall EU legislation. And guess what, EU legislation on firearms specifically contains the provision that each member state may determine which types of firearms may be permitted and for what purposes.

However at this stage I currently do not see any major changes to the primary legislation within this jurisdiction and if one comes we will have to cross that bridge if and when it comes.

For now I intend to enjoy getting back into my groove and competing as soon as i get the paperwork through and hope to see ye all back on the range soon!

meathshooter1

personally all I want is to enjoy my sport,I work very hard and when family & business commitments allow,I love noting better than getting to the range or hunting with my rifles,I didn't want to take the CS to court I was left with no choice,and that was proved in court and vindicates all who took the same route.no one wanted this and we've caused no harm to anyone only to a golden circle who act is if they are impervious to the law.Im not garda bashing I know a lot of gardai who are a credit to the country and community and have personally agreed with me on this issue

SLK2005

Happy days but I'll believe it when my solicitor tells me I can collect my gun.
Its time the Gardai begin to implement the law as it is, not as they see it or interperate it or wish it is. Maybe this will wake them up. This has cost me legal fees, storage fees and loss of enjoyment in my hobby. Its only right that the Gardai pay for the cost of the cases. How many new squad cars could have been bought with the money spent on this.But will anything be done about this or the altering of official documents which is a crime or the "oversight" of not filling in manditory sections of the forms.Are these the type of officers that should be kept on and even promoted. Rant halted as blood pressure rising:)
Congrats to all who put their money where their mouths are and happy shooting. We deserve it

rowa

What will happen though when the "opposition" get stuck into shatter in the dail and try to make some political mileage out of this ? you know the ff'ers in particular are going to be holyer then thou over this, they'll be up in arms at what has happened to aherns great plan to remove firearms from the public and also the final cost of the court costs, any stick to beat the government. deasy has also been remarkably quiet in the past year or two on the subject , its odds on he'll be needling shatter to do something.

There was an article today in the indo about the gardai losing a squad car everyday and not having the money to repair or replace them, when a super/chief super would rather spend money on going to court to deny a shooter a licence, rather then buy a new squad car to fight real crime its a real indication of how well they trust the irish shooting community.

SIG

The case was settled & there is no news of what was agreed to. However the pleading in the JR was for overturning the CS decisions not to grant / refusal to give reasons for the refusals etc .What may occur is 1) remit the appllications to the CS . 2) Order the grants in the cases taken. 3) invite new applications.
The whole debacle is bad for the Police image and for good relations with our community. It is regrettable that there was not a more precise outcome as the mist still shrouds the issues raised.
We will have to wait for clarification , but I fear that some retribution might be visited on us for daring to challange authority.

Bananaman

I say let people enjoy the thing for what it is.

We will all find out, in due course, how those that appealed their refusals faired.

We will also find.out what will change off the back of this.

But for now, I suggest we simply see this for what it is - a win - and worry about the hypotheticals if and when they arise.

B'Man

tac foley

SIG wrote: »

... but I fear that some retribution might be visited on us for daring to challange authority.

That statement is the most appalling indictment of your national police service that I have ever seen on these boards.

I hope with all my heart that you are wrong, and that the Republic of Ireland is not a place where the ordinary citizen fears possible police reprisals of some kind for pursuing a deliberate injustice.

In most other democratic countries, the national police force is there to uphold the law, not to modify or 'interpret it' on an individual basis to suit their own perceived agenda to the detriment of the citizen.

tac

virgindrummer

tac foley wrote: »

That statement is the most appalling indictment of your national police service that I have ever seen on these boards.

I hope with all my heart that you are wrong, and that the Republic of Ireland is not a place where the ordinary citizen fears possible police reprisals of some kind for pursuing a deliberate injustice.

In most other democratic countries, the national police force is there to uphold the law, not to modify or 'interpret it' on an individual basis to suit their own perceived agenda to the detriment of the citizen.

tac

In "most other democratic countries", when senior police are found by the high court to be breaking the law by falsifying or manipulating official documents there would be suspensions, followed by investigations, followed by dismissals, followed by charges being filed etc. We live in Ireland though. We'll see how if the Comissioner, Minster and Ombudsman react to these 'revelations'. I might ask a couple of my elected representatives to ask Mr. Shatter in the Dail for me.

It is great news that the people involved in taking the cases will get their sporting firearms after all of this. It must be very stressful to take on such powerful people in a setting like the high court. Any kind of legal proceedings can be very stressful for those involved. I have the utmost respect for those who took on these burdens, and I thank them for doing so.

ace86

Great news for all the people who has been waiting the outcome of this case and especially they will be granted their licences for their firearms ye had a long wait for a judgement and cost guys money in the process.
The worrying thing is how the gardai altered or interfered with the process of applying/appealing decisions and no one is going to be held accountable or prosecuted, and if a fellow has 3/4 pints and drives home he is considered a criminal and prosecuted.
1.From this case can people apply for a 9mm pistol or large caliber for target shooting in the future?
2.Should the E.U law be consulted or case study on another country how they implement the issuing of firearms since there's talk were going to be a type of united states of Europe?

BattleCorp

ace86 wrote: »

1.From this case can people apply for a 9mm pistol or large caliber for target shooting in the future?

If you didn't have a centerfire pistol prior to November 2008, then you have no chance of getting your 9mm (at least legally that is). No new applications for centerfire pistols are being processed as they are still classed as restricted.

Today's court case only covered the 168 people who had licences for centerfire pistols but their licences weren't renewed like they should have been.

SIG

That statement is the most appalling indictment of your national police service that I have ever seen on these boards.

If Police officers were forced to admit in open court that they had preverted the law then they would have had to resign.
Thats the damnation that is modern Ireland.
No one is responsible, no one in charge & no one pays for their ommissions/commissions.
Thats what the bankers/regulators/law makers /etc did - notice anyone of them in your local jail !!!!