FIREARMS LICENSING CASES BEFORE THE HIGH COURT

Sparks

clivej wrote: »

I knows wot thems words mean but its the BIG posh words that Sparks uses that gots mes cofuzed'id.
Money on it that Sparks reads the Times

Feck's sake clive, if seven letters is a big word, we're in trouble with our firearms!

Grizzly 45

but I’ve said all along that the onus was unfairly transferred onto the CS’s by the ‘Brass.’ That way the cute hoor minister escapes the heat and has fall guys to blame should anything go wrong.

This is a "brass "decision in the fact it was undertaken by 18 of the top administrative of day to day running of AGS.It is what would be termed in a bananna republic a "cornerl's coup de etat".IOW the rank of cornerl is considerd the most dangerous for plans for coups to happen.Small enough to be unnoticed,big enough to issue orders that count.
So take our AGS CS and put them in this position with ultimate executive power in their relative fiefdoms...Ultimate power ,with ultimate unaccountability to anyone.So long as it isnt discoverd or challanged.

Look at it another way – you’re the boss in a builders supply depot. All the customers want credit. Do you take the hard decisions, saying yes or no, or do you pass the buck down the line to your juniors, so you can kick a$$ and blame them should a problem arise? What the Minister, and brass, did was take the cowardly option.

[/QUOTE]

You take the hard decision,blame the minions and then grab your hat and coat and sell the busisness,after telling the staff I'm 100% behind you ,but I have to cut your wages by 50% and wont be responsible for any decisions you make..But shure run the shop as you see fit,Im out of it with me pension!

Grizzly 45

From the Irish Times today
Feb 2nd 2012

Emphasis mine,no comment.

Concerns about senior gardaí over gun licences still persist

CAROL COULTER

ANALYSIS: FOLLOWING AN intervention by Mr Justice John Hedigan, the Garda and three gun enthusiasts have come to an agreement. This will allow gun club members reapply for licences where they have been refused.
The basis on which the case was settled was the reasoning for the refusal of licences was flawed.
However, questions about the behaviour of the Garda posed by Mr Justice Hedigan remain to be answered. Minister for Justice Alan Shatter has asked the Garda Commissioner for a report on gun- licensing practices within the force.
Criticism of the Garda by a judge of the High or Supreme Court is always a serious matter. It is not unprecedented – findings of lying under oath have been made by a number of judges in individual criminal cases, leading to convictions being overturned.
These cases all concerned people accused of criminal offences, where the investigating garda fabricated evidence or lied under oath. Further, they were addressed by a number of high-profile inquiries into Garda conduct. The public therefore is entitled to feel these issues have been addressed.
The gun licences case raises potentially even more serious issues. Here, three law-abiding citizens, representing hundreds of gun club members who were pursuing a legitimate sport, took a civil case where they argued there was a systemic failure to abide by the gun licensing law on the part of the Garda.
This involved very senior officers as decisions on licences are made by chief superintendents.
Because the case was settled, there was no judgment made and the issues put by the gun club members were not resolved by the court. Nonetheless, Mr Justice Hedigan made very trenchant comments about the conduct of some gardaí.
“The accuracy and the integrity of that documentation [seeking licences] is essential to the safe and effective operation of the scheme,” he said. “The evidence at this moment shows that this recording process has not been correctly followed.
“More disturbingly, it has been admitted that a substantial number of the application forms have been altered, after having been previously finalised and signed. This occurred after these proceedings were initiated . . .”
If senior officers are seen to bend the rules in their engagement with law-abiding citizens, public confidence in the force will be undermined and the courts will be less

clivej

The Times Feb 1st

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0201/1224311047715.html
High Court challenge to gun licence refusal is settled

A LEGAL challenge by a number of shooting enthusiasts over an alleged “blanket” policy by senior gardaí to refuse them licences for restricted firearms has been settled.
Terms include a fresh consideration of their applications “in accordance with law”.
The claimants had alleged that their applications to obtain licences for the firearms in question were being refused on a blanket basis without any adequate reasons.
The Garda authorities denied there was a fixed policy of refusing licences.
At the High Court yesterday, Mr Justice John Hedigan was informed that the proceedings, regarded as important test cases for about 160 similar cases, had been resolved following talks between the parties.
The talks began after the judge expressed serious concerns over a Garda alteration of licence application forms and said he wanted to hear what the State had to say about this before continuing with the case.
Under the terms of settlement, the State has agreed to quash the decisions refusing the applications for restricted firearm certificates.
The applications will be remitted to gardaí to be freshly considered in accordance with law.
The terms provide that any other person eligible to apply for a restricted firearm certificate who has previously been refused by a chief superintendent, and where refusal has not been appealed to the District Court, may reapply for a firearm certificate.
The State has also agreed to pay the costs of a number of the actions, including the three test cases that had opened before the High Court.
Mr Justice Hedigan had been considering those three cases before dealing with similar cases in proceedings supported by the National Association of Game Councils.
The first of the test cases was brought by Dublin firearms dealer Michael Walls.
Mr Walls sought orders quashing the October 2009 refusals by Chief Supt Gerard Phillips, based at Ballymun Garda station, to issue firearms certificates for seven pistols owned by him, which are considered to be restrictive firearms.
The court heard previously that Mr Walls is actively involved in shooting clubs and competitions, both nationally and internationally, for many years.
He claimed Chief Supt Phillips told him in a letter he was not satisfied that Mr Walls had shown a good reason for requiring a restricted firearm where a non-restricted firearm would not fulfil his purpose.
Mr Walls’s request for a meeting was refused and he was also not given reasons for the decision, it was claimed.
In a replying affidavit, Chief Supt Phillips said having considered Mr Walls’s application and having weighed all of the relevant considerations, he was not satisfied Mr Walls had a good reason for requiring the guns and also did not think a meeting with Mr Walls was necessary.
The chief superintendent said he also took into account other factors, including the number of gun-related crimes in his Garda division and the dangers handguns could pose to the public.
The hearing, expected to last a number of weeks, was put on hold after the judge expressed concern that a senior garda had altered a “substantial number” of application forms.
He asked the State authorities to consider whether they would stand over the Garda licensing system after hearing evidence that after the legal proceedings were initiated, forms were altered.
The judge found the evidence in two of the three test cases so far showed the recording process had not been correctly followed.
It had been admitted that a substantial number of application forms had been altered, after having been previously signed and finalised, he said.
Large sections of the official application forms, the completion of which is mandatory, had not been filled in, leading to licences being refused, the court heard.
The judge noted this was described as due to “inadvertence”, or an error, by the authorities.
The accuracy and integrity of licensing records were essential to the safe and effective operation of the scheme, Mr Justice Hedigan said.
“If the system put in place is not being followed, then both the granting and refusing process is clearly flawed.”
The matter had been adjourned to yesterday when the judge was informed of the settlement






http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0201/1224311047736.html
Changes in 'flawed' gun licensing system sought

EOGHAN Mac CONNELL
THE NATIONAL Association of Regional Game Councils is calling for fundamental changes to the “seriously flawed” Irish firearms licensing system.
According to the association, the changes are required following yesterday’s settlement of more than 160 High Court cases challenging refusals by chief superintendents of An Garda Síochána to grant firearms certificates.
When three test cases came before the High Court last month, evidence emerged that the recording process had not been correctly followed.
In light of the evidence placed before the High Court and the remarks of Mr Justice Hedigan, the association wants changes to the licensing system to ensure transparency, fairness and the maintenance of public confidence in the safety and security provisions of the system.
It is also calling on Minister for Justice Alan Shatter to launch an inquiry into the manner in which officers within the Garda have operated the licensing system.
“The current system of firearms licensing is seriously flawed, as recognised by the High Court. The wider shooting community have lost all confidence in the Garda’s ability or intention to administer the system in a fair and professional manner,” the association said. “As a consequence of the revelations in the High Court, the Garda Síochána has lost all credibility and cannot be trusted with the licensing system.”

clivej

The Irish Times - Thursday, February 2, 2012
Minister asks for Garda report on altered gun forms

GERRY MORIARTY, Northern Editor

MINISTER FOR Justice Alan Shatter has asked Garda Commissioner Martin Callinan for a report following concerns expressed by a High Court judge about how a senior garda altered gun licence application forms.
The organisation representing shooting enthusiasts complained that it has “lost all confidence” in the Garda’s ability to administer a “fair and professional” system of awarding gun licences.
During a visit to Parliament Buildings at Stormont yesterday, Mr Shatter said the concerns voiced by Mr Justice John Hedigan at the High Court must be addressed. “I have asked the Garda Commissioner for a report on that particular issue,” he said.
“We are obviously going to have to examine what emerged in the court case, and I don’t want to pre-empt or prejudge the information that is going to come back to me, but quite clearly it is a matter that is going to have to be addressed,” added Mr Shatter.
The Minister ordered the report after the judge said he wanted to hear what the State had to say about the alteration of the gun licence forms.
The issue arose during a legal challenge by members of the shooting fraternity over what they claimed was a policy by senior gardaí to refuse them licences for restricted firearms.
While the legal challenge against the refusal of over 160 gun licences was settled, the comments by Mr Justice Hedigan prompted the National Association of Regional Game Councils to call for an inquiry into how gardaí run the firearms licence application system. The council said the force had “lost all credibility and cannot be trusted with the licensing system”.
The judge had expressed concern that a senior garda had altered a “substantial number” of applications.
He said the accuracy and integrity of licensing records were essential to the safe and effective operation of the scheme.
Mr Justice Hedigan said the State authorities should consider whether they would stand over the Garda licensing system after hearing evidence that after the legal proceedings were initiated, forms were altered.
“If the system put in place is not being followed, then both the granting and refusing process is clearly flawed,” he added.
The game councils’ group, which supported the cases, said it was “outraged, but not surprised at the behaviour of senior gardaí in the operation of the firearms licensing system”.
The group called for “fundamental changes to the licensing system to ensure transparency, fairness and the maintenance of public confidence in the safety and security provisions of the system”.
Mr Shatter did not appear to see a need for any change to current firearms legislation. “The difficulty that appears to have arisen in those proceedings didn’t relate so much to the legislation as to the decision-making process and forms that were either filled in or not appropriately filled in, and I am not going to pre-empt the initial report that I am going to get from the Garda Commissioner,” he said

Witcher

Atleast it's getting good media exposure.

2011

Blay wrote: »

Atleast it's getting good media exposure.

This "good media exposure" might not benefit shooters in the longer term.

rowa

"Changes in 'flawed' gun licensing system sought"

Be careful what you wish for , the system might be changed but not the way that anyone wants.

BattleCorp

The 168 people can now reapply for their licences. What are the chances that they will be refused a second time? Essentially what has changed?

If the Gardai make sure and fill in the forms correctly, be seen to take individual applications on their own merit and not work from the same template, what happens if they still refuse to issue the licence. Where do the 168 people go from there?

Shane.sf

The applications will be remitted to gardaí to be freshly considered in accordance with law.

Don't count your chickens before they hatch

BattleCorp

Shane.sf wrote: »

The applications will be remitted to gardaí to be freshly considered in accordance with law.

Yep, that's what has me worried.


If they cover their arses and fill in the paperwork properly this time, then what's to stop them refusing the licences all over again?

rowa

BattleCorp wrote: »

Essentially what has changed?

What has changed is that senior gardai , the doj have been shown up in public, the minister is being pressured to "do something" , he may just sign a new s.i and ban god knows what and claim its for public safety reasons.

virgindrummer

BattleCorp wrote: »

The 168 people can now reapply for their licences. What are the chances that they will be refused a second time? Essentially what has changed?

If the Gardai make sure and fill in the forms correctly, be seen to take individual applications on their own merit and not work from the same template, what happens if they still refuse to issue the licence. Where do the 168 people go from there?

Maybe some of them will be refused. So long as the guards apply the law instead of breaking it then people who meet the conditions for a restricted firearms cirtificate as set out (vaguely) in the legislation will get their guns. I think that's all any of us really want. To be treated fairly and for the persecution of shooters, the widespread illegality of Garda behaviour in dealing with firearms licencing, and the indignant, even seditious attitudes of senior Gardai to be stopped.

Firearms licencing is serious business, as is corruption within our police force. If this whole sorry saga resulted in the government rooting out this lawbreaking within the Gardai, and the attitude that high-ranking police don't have to obey the law, I'd be happy with that, even if it did mean gun laws were tightened up. There's more important things in life than target shooting and hunting.

Fenster18

Does anybody know for definate if licence can be re-applied for if it was not appealed at the time.(due to finances) But was refused by one of the Gardai in question.

Cass

BattleCorp wrote: »

Where do the 168 people go from there?

Unfortunately back to court.

Fenster18 wrote: »

Does anybody know for definate if licence can be re-applied for if it was not appealed at the time.(due to finances) But was refused by one of the Gardai in question.

You have 1 month or 30 days from the date of the refusal to appeal the decision. If you fail to do so within this time frame you must surrender the gun to An Gardai/RFD and inform the Gardai. They will keep the gun for a period of 3 months and will make arrangements for it to be disposed. If in that 3 month period it has not sold there will be a 1 month period which at the end of the gun will either need to be sold or it will be destroyed.

BattleCorp

iTom wrote: »

Under the current system, brought in three years ago to make it more difficult, on public safety and security grounds, to obtain a licence, the Garda Commissioner has responsibility for issuing licences.

I have a small bit of a problem with the above statement which has been included in several media statements regarding the High Court challenge.

This "public safety & security" statement is a crock of s**t. It just doesn't wash as far as I'm concerned. It isn't legally held handguns that are being used in crime. Illegal ones are being used. As far as I'm aware, and I'm open to correction on this, a legally held handgun hasn't been used to commit a crime in this country in at least the last 50 years.

If legally held handguns aren't being used in crime, how does making it harder for them to be obtained make one bit of difference to public safety.

.270 remington

Ezridax wrote: »

Unfortunately back to court.


They will keep the gun for a period of 3 months and will make arrangements for it to be disposed. If in that 3 month period it has not sold there will be a 1 month period which at the end of the gun will either need to be sold or it will be destroyed.

does this mean that any of the guns we left in for safe storage pending court cases are to be destroyed ????????

Cass

No.

If you were refused, and appealed, your gun can be kept in an RFD's for an unspecified amount of time until the case reahes it conclusion.

sfakiaman

Fenster18 wrote: »

Does anybody know for definate if licence can be re-applied for if it was not appealed at the time.(due to finances) But was refused by one of the Gardai in question.

The licence can be re-applied for but only for the same firearm, which would be a problem if it has been sold/exported etc.

rowa

BattleCorp wrote: »

I have a small bit of a problem with the above statement which has been included in several media statements regarding the High Court challenge.

This "public safety & security" statement is a crock of s**t. It just doesn't wash as far as I'm concerned. It isn't legally held handguns that are being used in crime. Illegal ones are being used. As far as I'm aware, and I'm open to correction on this, a legally held handgun hasn't been used to commit a crime in this country in at least the last 50 years.

If legally held handguns aren't being used in crime, how does making it harder for them to be obtained make one bit of difference to public safety.

Its a crock to you because you are a member of the shooting community and know the truth, but to the public at large pistols mean gangland crime and dunblaine type killing sprees , for the minister to link pistols to this type of incident and mention public safety was clever and ensured the general public were happy there were banned/restricted.

BattleCorp

rowa wrote: »

Its a crock to you because you are a member of the shooting community and know the truth, but to the public at large pistols mean gangland crime and dunblaine type killing sprees , for the minister to link pistols to this type of incident and mention public safety was clever and ensured the general public were happy there were banned/restricted.

I think then that we aren't doing enough to dispel the impression the minister and general public have of us, that we are all evil because we like to shoot pistols as a sporting hobby.

We need to promote ourselves and our impecible safety/security record. This doesn't seem to be getting any mention in the media.

hk

Grizzly,
I am not a member of AGS just a sports shooter, however like it or not we will still have to deal with the GS regarding firearms certs and as such I think its better for me anyway to maintain a neutral relationship with them.

My personal belief is that the previous minister, commissioner or senior civil servant had a hand in this. I do not necessarily believe that 17 Chiefs got together and decided to implement a blanket policy on their own, I believe they were advised to do so and I believe that if any of them had any further career aspirations it was clear not to go against the wishes of the then minister.

Regarding what has come out of this process, I sincerely doubt that many chiefs ordered to review the applications they have refused would seriously consider refusing them again on what could be described as spurious grounds. Another court case of this nature would bury them.

I have believed and continue to believe that the current minister is not interested in dealing with this headache any more and would be happy for it to go away and that is what i believe he was suggesting when he stated that he does not consider that the law needs to be changed, rather he wants the GS to implement the law properly.

Just my opinion and looking forward to my imminent grant letter any day now.
I do agree that this whole thing has left a very bitter taste in my mouth and would much rather have not had to go down the route that 168 of us had to. But now i believe the issue is resolved and now I just want to forget about it and compete again. (I dont believe our legal team settled the case without good reason and assurances that the cert will now be granted in due course)

Regards,

H

sfakiaman

hk wrote: »

Just my opinion and looking forward to my imminent grant letter any day now.
I do agree that this whole thing has left a very bitter taste in my mouth and would much rather have not had to go down the route that 168 of us had to. But now i believe the issue is resolved and now I just want to forget about it and compete again. (I dont believe our legal team settled the case without good reason and assurances that the cert will now be granted in due course)

Regards,H

Amen to that brother

Fenster18

sfakiaman wrote: »

The licence can be re-applied for but only for the same firearm, which would be a problem if it has been sold/exported etc.

It has been kept in storage by RFD sine refusal.
I would have thought that in light of recent findings anybody who had a pistol licence prior to Nov 08 should be allowed to re apply as their refusals were no different to the 168 mentioned.

sfakiaman

Fenster18 wrote: »

It has been kept in storage by RFD sine refusal.
I would have thought that in light of recent findings anybody who had a pistol licence prior to Nov 08 should be allowed to re apply as their refusals were no different to the 168 mentioned.

As far as I know anyone can re-apply unless they appealed the refusal in the district court, lost and didn't apply for a judicial review. I'm sure all the details will come out over the next few days.

.270 remington

has any of us law abiding citizens had a visit from our garda to check if we surrendered our sporting guns

BattleCorp

.270 remington wrote: »

has any of us law abiding citizens had a visit from our garda to check if we surrendered our sporting guns

If they find out you didn't surrender your gun and still have it "unlicenced", there's a chance that you'll be seeing what the inside of Mountjoy looks like.

.270 remington

lol
battlecorp i left in mine the day after i got the refusals

Grizzly 45

hk wrote: »

Grizzly,
I am not a member of AGS just a sports shooter, however like it or not we will still have to deal with the GS regarding firearms certs and as such I think its better for me anyway to maintain a neutral relationship with them.

Agree 100%,and sorry for mistkaing you as a member of AGS!:D:eek:
Yes this should be a 100% neutral affair an application.However it shows that fear&loathing of firearms still appears to be a main stumbling block in AGS decision making..

My personal belief is that the previous minister, commissioner or senior civil servant had a hand in this. I do not necessarily believe that 17 Chiefs got together and decided to implement a blanket policy on their own, I believe they were advised to do so and I believe that if any of them had any further career aspirations it was clear not to go against the wishes of the then minister.

Even more scarier that!! As to climb the political ladder you have to disobey the laws of the land??It begs another answer to finally this conumdrum here ..Who is actually in charge of AGS??The minister for Justice or the Cheif comissioner??As it seems to be a ping pong game between each when it suits on points of legislation.I wish I could have your faith in these peoples integrity,but seeing that they have been found to be playing Fast and Loose with the firearms laws in Ireland in a court of law.How can I or anyone else for that matter??

Regarding what has come out of this process, I sincerely doubt that many chiefs ordered to review the applications they have refused would seriously consider refusing them again on what could be described as spurious grounds. Another court case of this nature would bury them.

Thats a fact...As I am led to belive,WA 1500,and other such disiplines are now accepted good reason.A point that was conceeded in the HC by AGS.

I have believed and continue to believe that the current minister is not interested in dealing with this headache any more and would be happy for it to go away and that is what i believe he was suggesting when he stated that he does not consider that the law needs to be changed, rather he wants the GS to implement the law properly.

And THATS ALL anyone wants out here!!!Some openness and transparency and neutrality in this matter would go down very well too.:rolleyes:

Just my opinion and looking forward to my imminent grant letter any day now.
I do agree that this whole thing has left a very bitter taste in my mouth and would much rather have not had to go down the route that 168 of us had to. But now i believe the issue is resolved and now I just want to forget about it and compete again. (I dont believe our legal team settled the case without good reason and assurances that the cert will now be granted in due course)

Cant say it is any sweeter in mine either!:mad: Especially when I had to go and re employ a legal team to convince my CS to do his duty under a DC edict that was left on the long finger for 12 months!Or no doubt for the 100s still in limbo or the DC or somwhere in the legal process still.

I agree 100% with you that we need to put this behind us and get out on the range.. HOWEVER,looking back over the last four years of blood ,sweat and tears and wasted time and money by all of us involved We should take away these harsh lessons.

AGS are NOT our friends when it comes to liscensing firearms in the ROI.Their policy is simply the only people qualified to have firearms here is themselves in defence of the State![from a DOJ letter in 2009]
NOTE that and note that well people!!We ,the citizens are not to be trusted with anything more leathl than a water pistol!:mad:
NEVER FORGET THIS...NEVER FORGIVE THIS!

The price of liberty[ or gun ownership] is eternal vigilance here.
I hate to keep going onto this...May 2008 Dermot Aherne announced at the AGM of Garda Seargents and Inspectors,that he was going to significantly cut the numbers of gun liscenses in Ireland!!

I hate playing Cassandra here! But when I announced this here on boards the replies were of the levity kind,the Ah shure nothing will happen or "The arse has fallen out of the economy..He will have more things to worry about".

Aherne cynically used the murder of Shane Greoghan as a convient coat peg to hang this disaster upon us.It was the equivelency of Pearl Harbour!
We had ample time to take the minister to task on this comment,possibly find out what was pissing him ,AGS and DOJ off about practical pistol,and sort that out,get our own acts in gear and and like the top brass in Pearl Harbour,our top brass AKA shooting organisations were where exactly???
They started reacting when the damage was done and dusted and we were sunk.

NEVER belive another promise or whatever from the Dept of Justice/AGS ,unless it is in writing on govt letterhead signed and checked by at least three competant barristers with microscopes for very fine print!!
I am refering to the betrayal and slick handed disposition of the practical pistol setup in Ireland.Dec1st 2008,the EGM it was stated,either you jump lads or we'll bulldoze the entire pistol shooting of Ireland into the Abyss!!!
So we jumped,on the assurance that big cal handguns would be re liscensed for other sports... The rest is history!!!:mad::mad:

So we can all go back to sleep now,and continue our biatching and moaning amongst our many organisations,and be picked off again in another attritive war.OR we can learn from this ,start putting together proper inter shooting disiplines cooperation policies without throwing a certain disipline we dont like for whatever the current reason is into the lions pit.And start paying attention to some early warning signals and to when civil serpents and ministers start mumbling about firearms in this country.
At the moment we have the high ground..Lets use this for once to our advantage.Be it NARGC and the entire alaphabet soup of organisations on the other side.We wont get everything we want,but it would be nice if we could get to a position of living with each other and accomadating each others POVs and problems.

Best
Grizz

Grizzly 45

Ezridax wrote: »

Unfortunately back to court.

Indeed,BUT with this time mentioning on this matter in the HC as legal guidelines.IOW your solr can argue now that this was discussed in a HC case and XYZ reasons were conceeded as "good reason" to own a pistol,a DC will go by a HC ruling or mention on points of law.So it "Should" become a formality,more than anything else...From what I understand of this..