FIREARMS LICENSING CASES BEFORE THE HIGH COURT

meathshooter1

I don't think that will save money,there will still be issues of compensation,they might gain a bit of short lived false propaganda, but crime has noting to do with legal shooting sports & they should not be beat with that stick.there are 215000 licenses in the state that amounts to a lot of votes when you add family's ,they could end up like Fianna fail.my heart goes out to the family of that poor girl and if I taught for one moment that giving up my firearms would stop the likes of this taught less thuggery I would gladly do so.don't make early presumptions, the drug trade is responsible for the ease of accessibility of weapons to criminals.I hope for the swift arrest and key thrown away on these SCUM

BattleCorp

Sparks wrote: »

...and he'll just ban all pistols with statute law that can't be appealed in court. Thus saving all that money.

Unfortunately, I think that there is a possibility that could happen. And it's blaming the wrong section of the community, i.e. the target shooters. It isn't the target shooters carrying out gangland "hits".

It seems that the minister is very ill informed regarding guns, which is very unfortunate seeing as he has so much power.

It's sad that he can't tell the difference between legal guns and illegal guns - or to put it another way, he can't tell the difference between law abiding licence holders and scumbags.


Removing legally held handguns from law abiding citizens won't stop one single gangland murder.

sfakiaman

Sparks wrote: »

I keep saying it, and I'm not the only one, but it doesn't seem to be heard - you can't use the courts as a stick to beat the government with. It just doesn't work that way.

In my understanding the recent court case was not against the government or the legislation but about the failure of a large number of chief supers to implement the legislation in accordance with the law as laid down by the government. If however you are implying that the politically appointed ranks of the An Garda Síochána are the government then we are in a lot more trouble than I thought.

Sparks

rowa wrote: »

But the talking went on for nearly 30 years with no budge from any government in the case of pistols sparks, not even low powered airpistols were released for target shooting, the only thing i can think of that was released without a court case was centrefires up to .270, nick flood had to head to court to get a rifle in a competitive calibre or continue to attend international shoots with hunting calibre. We still wouldn't have pistols only for the brophy case.

Except that talking didn't go on for 30 years - it was on hold for most of the troubles. And air and smallbore pistols were offered in the mid-90s, but the offer was declined in favour of going for everything. And Nick's court case was settled out of court (thus setting no precedent) after he'd returned from medalling in the world championships, so you can't really say he wasn't competitive at the time, especially when he could have been shooting with 6.5mmBR (one of the most accurate rounds in the 300m game) before the case. And while the brophy case did provide the first legal precedents and was a very welcome outcome, the fact that the Minister and the AGS were having a row at the time helped enormously but nobody seems to remember that when thinking about it.

Look, I'm all for the idea that we have to be assertive about our interests, but there's being assertive and being aggressive and the two aren't the same thing at all. The former works; the latter causes more problems in the long run. So far, we've both won and lost high court and supreme court cases over firearms licencing; the damage from the losses has outweighted the good from the wins, especially when you take into account the subsequent fallout from the cases. Everyone is thinking that these cases are now over and we won; I'm saying that couldn't be further from the truth, that we're now at the mid-point, not the end.

The old bog road

Anyonre naieve enough to think that these recent High Court cases will not have ramifications for the whole game shooting community is daft. As a consequence of constantly rubbing the gaurds noses in it in the courts I'll bet there will be a whole raft of legislative changes to the gun licencing laws in 2013. For starters, we could see a quadrupling of the licence fee, as well as having to provide a doctors cert (another €60 -70) plus installing cameras, alarms etc. etc. Also, over the top statements that "we" have lost all confidence in the Gardai do not reflect the views of the vast majority of game hunters. I for one have every confidence in the Gardai who are doing a difficult job. Finally, the only ones who benefit from court cases are fat cat solicitors and barristers.

rowa

The old bog road wrote: »

Anyonre naieve enough to think that these recent High Court cases will not have ramifications for the whole game shooting community is daft. As a consequence of constantly rubbing the gaurds noses in it in the courts I'll bet there will be a whole raft of legislative changes to the gun licencing laws in 2013. For starters, we could see a quadrupling of the licence fee, as well as having to provide a doctors cert (another €60 -70) plus installing cameras, alarms etc. etc. Also, over the top statements that "we" have lost all confidence in the Gardai do not reflect the views of the vast majority of game hunters. I for one have every confidence in the Gardai who are doing a difficult job. Finally, the only ones who benefit from court cases are fat cat solicitors and barristers.

The gardai have a difficult job to do so that makes it ok for them to collude like a witches sabbath and break the law by altering application forms ? Should the gardai be beyond the law old bog road , or allowed to dream up laws that suit them and no one else ? Some of the supers/chief supers involved in this case wouldn't allow shooters have a licence for a second shotgun, are they not part of the game shooting community ?

otmmyboy2

The old bog road wrote: »

Anyonre naieve enough to think that these recent High Court cases will not have ramifications for the whole game shooting community is daft. As a consequence of constantly rubbing the gaurds noses in it in the courts I'll bet there will be a whole raft of legislative changes to the gun licencing laws in 2013. For starters, we could see a quadrupling of the licence fee, as well as having to provide a doctors cert (another €60 -70) plus installing cameras, alarms etc. etc. Also, over the top statements that "we" have lost all confidence in the Gardai do not reflect the views of the vast majority of game hunters. I for one have every confidence in the Gardai who are doing a difficult job. Finally, the only ones who benefit from court cases are fat cat solicitors and barristers.

While I seriously doubt the upper echelons of most organisations, particularly politically motivated/affiliated ones (GS) I have the utmost respect for the chaps actually serving us, most of whom are a thoroughly reasonable bunch. But as the old saying goes the s**t always floats to the top, its just a pity that its now being promoted to ever loftier positions.
I for one will be awaiting the ministers next step, and ignoring the cynical one post wonder.

.243

BattleCorp wrote: »

Unfortunately, I think that there is a possibility that could happen. And it's blaming the wrong section of the community,
Removing legally held handguns from law abiding citizens won't stop one single gangland murder.

i read an article recently that a survey was done 10 yrs after the dunblane tragedy after the pistol ban was brought in to crack down on gun crime,
gun crime in the uk went UP 800% after 10 yrs

Grizzly 45

The old bog road wrote: »

Anyonre naieve enough to think that these recent High Court cases will not have ramifications for the whole game shooting community is daft. As a consequence of constantly rubbing the gaurds noses in it in the courts I'll bet there will be a whole raft of legislative changes to the gun licencing laws in 2013. For starters, we could see a quadrupling of the licence fee, as well as having to provide a doctors cert (another €60 -70) plus installing cameras, alarms etc. etc. Also, over the top statements that "we" have lost all confidence in the Gardai do not reflect the views of the vast majority of game hunters. I for one have every confidence in the Gardai who are doing a difficult job. Finally, the only ones who benefit from court cases are fat cat solicitors and barristers.

Still hasnt sunk into you that this applies to all GUNOWNERS has it???

Ah well..You look after your own intrests there ol bog road as a "game shooter" this has nothing to do with you at all!!Shure you are one of the elite breed in Ireland that firearms laws dont apply to..
YOU lot be the first to be bawling when th Gaurds whom you have absolute trust in dump that whole slew of legislation on as well,or come for your double barrel...:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

BornToKill

.243 wrote: »

i read an article recently that a survey was done 10 yrs after the dunblane tragedy after the pistol ban was brought in to crack down on gun crime,
gun crime in the uk went UP 800% after 10 yrs

Certainly the homicide figures for England & Wales 1998/99 to 2008/09 would not suport your assertion but perhaps the figures for 'gun crime' in the UK would be completely different. I'd love to read that article. Is there any chance of you providing a link to it?

Here are the E&W homicide figures:

1998/99: 49
1999/00: 62
2000/01: 73
2001/02: 97
2002/03: 81
2003/04: 68
2004/05: 77
2005/06: 50
2006/07: 59
2007/08: 53
2008/09: 41

Looking forward to seeing your article on the 800% increase and thanks in advance.

rowa

Some good info here
http://www.crimeandjustice.org.uk/opus713/ccjs_gun_crime_report.pdf

Some of the information is provided by the anti-gun gun control network though, the newspapers did report a 300% increase in gun crime since the dunblane incident,but thats because of changes of the types of gun crime counted where they were not counted previously, the number of people murdered seems to be falling.

Traumadoc

I do not think that the laws relating to firearm control have any thing to do with facts or statistics.
Witness some guards irrational objection to moderators.

The laws at the moment are based on the media agenda.

Sparks

A PQ from Tuesday, 7 February 2012, the emphasis in the answer is mine:

Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
Question 387: To ask the Minister for Justice and Equality his plans to address recent Garda behaviour in the issuing of gun licences; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [6776/12]

Alan Shatter (Minister, Department of Justice, Equality and Defence; Dublin South, Fine Gael)

I take it the Deputy is referring to a recent High Court case involving Judicial Reviews of decisions by Chief Superintendents in firearms cases. What was at issue were decisions by Chief Superintendents to refuse applications for licenses for high calibre handguns. That case was settled with no admission of wrongdoing on the part of the State but with an undertaking to consider applications afresh and give reasons to applicants where applications are turned down.

In the light of issues which arose in those proceedings I sought a report from the Garda Commissioner. I have now received a detailed interim report. The Commissioner has indicated that he shares the concern expressed by the Judge in the case about the alteration of documents after proceedings had commenced and, in the first instance, has sought an explanation as to the circumstances in which this occurred.

In the case of the evidence given by another member of An Garda Síochána, the Commissioner has indicated that, while an issue did arise in relation to the completion of parts of the application forms, he is satisfied that the applications were decided in accordance with that person’s understanding of the relevant firearms legislation, decisions were recorded in notifications to applicants, and those decisions were informed by understandable concerns of public safety in the light of the difficult situation concerning crime in his Division. The Commissioner points out that the parts of the forms in question are not a statutory requirement under the Firearms legislation and are geared towards the requirements of recording data on the PULSE system through the ticking of a number of boxes.

The Commissioner is addressing as a matter or urgency the whole process of firearms licensing and the administrative functions associated with it in the light of the outcome of those Court proceedings. The Commissioner has assured me that he, of course, accepts fully the desirability of application forms being completed fully and properly and has indicated that as part of that review he intends to remove any impediments being experienced by his Officers in achieving this. The Commissioner is to report to me again when he has completed that review.

Tragically, the House will have been reminded in recent days of the dangers which licensed firearms can pose for members of An Garda Síochána and others. For my part, I am determined to ensure that in the operation of the firearms licensing system, the question of public safety is paramount.

Looking at the highlighted bits, I'm left with some impressions:

• Despite the statement made by Egan&associates, which already had some factual errors in it, it seems the settlement they agreed to had a clause agreeing to forget about any errors or transgressions made by the Gardai involved.
• The report is already in, a day or two before those in the report were promoted to higher office within the AGS, including the role of Assistant Commissioner over the area of Ireland home to the largest concentrations of handgun licences, firearms licences in general, and target shooting clubs and ranges.
• The Commissioner is now looking at the system, having just been publicly humiliated by a case taken by those who used it.
• And we have just arrived at stage five of my earlier prediction of what was coming and are nudging at stage six.

Grizzly 45

Quite frankly what exactly did we expect the Minister to say???That the entire AGS CS are a corrupt bunch playing with the law to their whims,and that he is ordering the Cheif Comissioner to suspend the whole lot without pay pending a ful investigation RE pressing criminal charges.
Anywhere else in the World this would proably happen,but not in the bananna republic of Ireland.:rolleyes:
Shatter hjas just dunked the brush of officaldom in the Govt White wash tub and is out plying it over the whole affair as is usual for dealing with such matters here.No one in Govt is to blame or is at fault,and those who screw up the most are bought off with promotions and pensions.
Wonder how long the Irish people will keep on tolerating this....???

And now that there is a possibility of further restrictions ..Would our shooting reps and organisations please WAKE THE FK UP!!! And actually go and ask Min Shatter what he intends to do about this or clarify his statements of recent days????Before we are in another situation along the lines of D Aherne saying he intended to reduce FACs in May 2008,and we get our arses kicked in Nov 08???

knockon

Sparks wrote: »

Not sure Rew, couldn't find a list of names.

From the Garda Website.....

The following are details of promotions announced earlier today -
Assistant Commissioner Gerard Phillips will take charge of the Eastern Region

Assistant Commissioner Dónall Ó Cualáin will take charge of the Southern Region

Chief Superintendent Francis Clerkin - D.M.R. Northern Division
Chief Superintendent Orla McPartlin - Internal Affairs
Chief Superintendent Jeremiah O’Sullivan - DMR Eastern Division
Chief Superintendent Michael O’Sullivan - Galway Division
Chief Superintendent William Dillane - Cork North Division
Chief Superintendent Patrick Clavin - Change Management
Chief Superintendent Mark Curran - Westmeath Division
Chief Superintendent Michael Clancy - Sligo Division

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Shatter hjas just dunked the brush of officaldom in the Govt White wash tub and is out plying it over the whole affair as is usual for dealing with such matters here.No one in Govt is to blame or is at fault,and those who screw up the most are bought off with promotions and pensions.

Grizz, you did note the first point in my post, right?
We. Signed. Off. On. That.
Complaining about it now seems somewhat anemic really.

And now that there is a possibility of further restrictions ..Would our shooting reps and organisations please WAKE THE FK UP!

Honestly mate, if you said that to me face to face I'd have to walk away from you to avoid slapping you.

Shooting reps and organisations saw this coming a few years back. People were being asked to help as far back as 2003, but we keep hearing of people who only noticed things had changed when the new form was dropped up to the house by the local Gardai. Telling the people who've been working on this for the guts of a decade that they need to wake up when the one thing they were warning would bite us in the ass has just been pursued to exactly where they said it would lead, is a fairly daft thing to be doing.

What happens next will be happening despite years of hard, quiet, unsexy, uncredited work by a lot of dedicated people; and because of a minority of people who didn't do so much of the hard work but were dying to watch a shouting match instead of taking part in a shooting match, and who wanted credit for everything.

All these cases could have been sorted more effectively and with far less blowback via the FCP, but that option was burned because people had neither the patience to wait for a more stable result, nor the memory to remember the outcome of Dunne-v-Donohue, nor the cop-on to realise that in Ireland you can't publicly embarress a state official and expect a problem to get solved as a result. Sitting down at the table was abandoned in favour of pounding our fist on the table and shouting at people. Well, we're now fairly well bent over that table, and what happens next probably won't be terribly pretty or enjoyable for us. And all of it was avoidable.

:mad:

Grizzly 45

Sparks wrote: »

Grizz, you did note the first point in my post, right?
We. Signed. Off. On. That.
Complaining about it now seems somewhat anemic really.

Honestly mate, if you said that to me face to face I'd have to walk away from you to avoid slapping you.

Wouldnt be adviseable for the benefit of your wellbeing or anyone elses to EVER try that!:mad:I have a tendency to kick HARD multple times anyone who tries the face slapping bit in very sensitive areas of their body....

Shooting reps and organisations saw this coming a few years back. People were being asked to help as far back as 2003, but we keep hearing of people who only noticed things had changed when the new form was dropped up to the house by the local Gardai. Telling the people who've been working on this for the guts of a decade that they need to wake up when the one thing they were warning would bite us in the ass has just been pursued to exactly where they said it would lead, is a fairly daft thing to be doing.

What happens next will be happening despite years of hard, quiet, unsexy, uncredited work by a lot of dedicated people; and because of a minority of people who didn't do so much of the hard work but were dying to watch a shouting match instead of taking part in a shooting match, and who wanted credit for everything.

All these cases could have been sorted more effectively and with far less blowback via the FCP, but that option was burned because people had neither the patience to wait for a more stable result, nor the memory to remember the outcome of Dunne-v-Donohue, nor the cop-on to realise that in Ireland you can't publicly embarress a state official and expect a problem to get solved as a result. Sitting down at the table was abandoned in favour of pounding our fist on the table and shouting at people. Well, we're now fairly well bent over that table, and what happens next probably won't be terribly pretty or enjoyable for us. And all of it was avoidable.

:mad:

ALL VERY true and very commensable work,and not what I'm talking about at all..So'we can look forward to the various shooting reps calling on Min Shatter to maybe clarify his statements of the last few days on gun ownership and what exactly he meant by such???Or intends to act on??Good stuff then!If that is the case,I will sleep better!
Thats the kind of wake up call I'm talking about...the silence was deafning the last time a justice minister pronounced his intentions from our shooting bodies in 2008.
On a point of tables,sitting,pounding or bending over...Wonder are we smarter now this time round???

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Wouldnt be adviseable

So'we can look forward to the various shooting reps calling on Min Shatter to maybe clarify his statements of the last few days on gun ownership and what exactly he meant by such???Or intends to act on?

No, because they're not stupid and they want our sport to survive.

What part of walking up to a Minister and trying to publicly embarress him after publicly embarressing the Assistant Commissioner for the Eastern region in the AGS seems like a good idea to you Grizzly? Especially when the agreement signed stated that the AGS did nothing wrong?

the silence was deafning the last time a justice minister pronounced his intentions from our shooting bodies in 2008.

The silence was deafening because they were busy talking to the DoJ directly instead of trying to embarress someone in public, because results mattered, not polemic in the press.

Wonder are we smarter now this time round???

Looking at your post, I'd think not.

otmmyboy2

Question:
Anyone feeling a tad helpless after reading this thread?
Is there anything that we can do at this point?
Only thing I could think of doing was sending letters/emails to my local tds.
Any other suggestions or would doing this just stir the pot?
Thanks
otmmyboy2

Sparks

otmmyboy2 wrote: »

Question:
Anyone feeling a tad helpless after reading this thread?

Yes, this entire affair has felt like being a passenger in a car sliding on ice towards a brick wall for the last year or so.

Is there anything that we can do at this point?

My own opinion would be to push to have the FCP reinstated, not just with local TDs but with your NGBs as well.

If 168 high court cases taken at expense to shooters and eating up lots of time end in a settlement that says the AGS did nothing wrong, establishes no legal precedent and leaves those in the cases with nothing more concrete than the right to reapply for their licences (a right they had before the cases began), then another route needs to be tried to effect necessary change. Personally, I think the FCP's the best route we had for that kind of work, and with the court cases set aside, we might be able to open it back up.

Grizzly 45

Sparks wrote: »

No, because they're not stupid and they want our sport to survive.

Ah busisness as normal...Keep quiet lads and it will all be fine!:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

What part of walking up to a Minister and trying to publicly embarress him after publicly embarressing the Assistant Commissioner for the Eastern region in the AGS seems like a good idea to you Grizzly? Especially when the agreement signed stated that the AGS did nothing wrong?

The only embarrassment is what the AGS bought down upon themselves by playing fast and loose with the firearms procedures.If you cant do the time dont do the crime,applies to criminals and bent coppers in equal amount.So if it is an embarrassment to ask a democratically elected figure to clarify his public statements in private,then we are in a worse situation than thought.

The silence was deafening because they were busy talking to the DoJ directly instead of trying to embarress someone in public, because results mattered, not polemic in the press.

OH!! THAT IS News!!!:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: Because when I look back to the posts on it here,it was the usual biatching and infighting and busisness as usual and "ah dont worry abut it" type comments..So do tell what exactly WERE they saying to ol Dermo????Because I and a few thousand others would love to know when he said he was taking the axe to liscense numbers????
Or are we peasents not worthy of such deliberations???

Looking at your post, I'd think not.

Is that a personal comment again Sparks????Because maybe you dont know everything whats going on in the backrooms??

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Ah busisness as normal...Keep quiet lads and it will all be fine!:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

No Grizzly, that's not business as normal. Business as normal is to try to get change in through means that will keep the change in place. Which means not trying to publicly embarrass a Minister who can shut down your sport with one stroke of his pen, especially when you can't embarrass him because you've signed a document saying nobody did anything wrong.

if it is an embarrassment to ask a democratically elected figure to clarify his public statements in private,then we are in a worse situation than thought.

Light dawns on marble hill...

when I look back to the posts on it here,it was the usual biatching and infighting and busisness as usual and "ah dont worry abut it" type comments

Yes - from the people who weren't fixing it, except to try to fix it for themselves by putting themselves in charge of licencing.

So do tell what exactly WERE they saying to ol Dermo?

Variations on "don't do it" Grizz, what else?

Or are we peasents not worthy of such deliberations?

You're not a peasant, but did you actually ask anyone? I saw the article, called my NGB lad up on the phone and was told what was going on. There wasn't any secrecy to it, but the most effective route at the time was through the Minister's office, not through Madam's office in the Times.

Is that a personal comment again Sparks????Because maybe you dont know everything whats going on in the backrooms??

No Grizz, it's me saying that if the first thing you want to do is to haul a Minister over the coals in the press instead of sitting down with him and figuring out a way to avoid ever getting to this place again in the future, then you learnt nothing from the fun and games in 2004. And 2009. And all the other years before that when people took a run at a sitting Minister and suddenly learnt that that particular approach might feel good for a few days, but ultimately leads to you not getting what you want and probably losing more than you had to start with.

Right now, the smart thing to be looking for is to stay out of the press, to deny FF and SF ammunition to fire at the Minister, because if they do that, he'll respond the way Ahern responded to Deasy. Right now the smart thing to do is to be trying our best to reopen the FCP route because we've just proven dramatically that the courts cannot give us what we need here.

Instead, you want to go from the courtroom to the press in an effort to cause a row in the Dail with the Opposition taking pot shots at the guy who'll use us as a human shield.

That's just not clever and it just won't work.

otmmyboy2

Sparks wrote: »

Yes, this entire affair has felt like being a passenger in a car sliding on ice towards a brick wall for the last year or so.

My own opinion would be to push to have the FCP reinstated, not just with local TDs but with your NGBs as well.

If 168 high court cases taken at expense to shooters and eating up lots of time end in a settlement that says the AGS did nothing wrong, establishes no legal precedent and leaves those in the cases with nothing more concrete than the right to reapply for their licences (a right they had before the cases began), then another route needs to be tried to effect necessary change. Personally, I think the FCP's the best route we had for that kind of work, and with the court cases set aside, we might be able to open it back up.

Thanks for that Sparks, one more probably naive question, what is or was the FCP? Ive heard it talked about it a bit and it seemed to be a good thing.

Sparks

It's the committee, chaired by the Department of Justice, which all the NGBs were sitting on or represented at (umbrella groups make things complicated) along with the Gardai, Sports Council, Gun dealers, the IFA, the insurers, and others who were stakeholders in firearms legislation. The idea being to try to form legislation that everyone could live with.

More details in this thread.

otmmyboy2

Sparks wrote: »

It's the committee, chaired by the Department of Justice, which all the NGBs were sitting on or represented at (umbrella groups make things complicated) along with the Gardai, Sports Council, Gun dealers, the IFA, the insurers, and others who were stakeholders in firearms legislation. The idea being to try to form legislation that everyone could live with.

More details in this thread.

Sounds too good to be true. :D

meathshooter1

knockon wrote: »

From the Garda Website.....

The following are details of promotions announced earlier today -
Assistant Commissioner Gerard Phillips will take charge of the Eastern Region

Assistant Commissioner Dónall Ó Cualáin will take charge of the Southern Region

Chief Superintendent Francis Clerkin - D.M.R. Northern Division
Chief Superintendent Orla McPartlin - Internal Affairs
Chief Superintendent Jeremiah O’Sullivan - DMR Eastern Division
Chief Superintendent Michael O’Sullivan - Galway Division
Chief Superintendent William Dillane - Cork North Division
Chief Superintendent Patrick Clavin - Change Management
Chief Superintendent Mark Curran - Westmeath Division
Chief Superintendent Michael Clancy - Sligo Division

Here are the promotions to superintendent

Promotions to the Rank Superintendent - 7/2/12

The following are details of yesterday’s promotions to the rank of Superintendent -

Superintendent Joseph Prendergast – Kildare District
Superintendent John J. Keane – Castlebar District
Superintendent Gerard Russell – Carrickmacross District
Superintendent Alan Cunningham – Bruff District
Superintendent William Carolan – Enniscorthy District
Superintendent James Ryan – Castlerea District
Detective Superintendent Andrew Watters – Liaison & Protection
Detective Superintendent Stephen Courage – Garda National Drugs Unit
Superintendent Mary Delmar – Communications Centre
Superintendent Colm Fox – Swinford District
Superintendent George Kyne – Blessington District
Detective Superintendent John O’Reilly - Monaghan
Superintendent Finbarr Murphy – Tramore District
Detective Superintendent John Nolan – Technical Bureau
Superintendent Derek Smart – Clonakilty District
Superintendent Patrick Conlon – Wexford District
Superintendent Aiden Foley – Westport District
Superintendent Paul Hogan – Wicklow District
Superintendent Michael Leacy – Dungarvan District
Superintendent Patrick L. McGinn – Ballyshannon District
Superintendent Sean Farrell – Ballyconnell District
Superintendent Michael Fitzpatrick – Listowel District
Superintendent Declan Goode – DMR Traffic

I know one of them use to be My FO lovley man and I wish them all the best in their new posititions,

Sparks

otmmyboy2 wrote: »

Sounds too good to be true. :D

Well, wind in the expectations a bit - the clue is in the name, it's a consultation panel. The Minister isn't bound to do what it suggests. However, anything they do get through the FCP automatically has the Minister's blessing and isn't likely to be eliminated the next time there's a Misc.Provisions bill in the legislative programme (and ooo, look, there's a Criminal Justice (Misc. Provisions) bill on the legislative programme right now! )

otmmyboy2

Sparks wrote: »

Well, wind in the expectations a bit - the clue is in the name, it's a consultation panel. The Minister isn't bound to do what it suggests. However, anything they do get through the FCP automatically has the Minister's blessing and isn't likely to be eliminated the next time there's a Misc.Provisions bill in the legislative programme (and ooo, look, there's a Criminal Justice (Misc. Provisions) bill on the legislative programme right now! )

Ah well, its something else to do that could help.
And as to the new bill, every silver lining has a cloud. :eek:

Grizzly 45

Sparks wrote: »

No Grizzly, that's not business as normal. Business as normal is to try to get change in through means that will keep the change in place. Which means not trying to publicly embarrass a Minister who can shut down your sport with one stroke of his pen, especially when you can't embarrass him because you've signed a document saying nobody did anything wrong.

Who said anything about embarrassing him.Although he should be rightly embarrassed and his sidekick/boss, Cheif Comissioner that such carryon is going on in the police force .
My take would be ,sure go ahead ban the guns,and there will be a never ending push for a public enquiry into the conduct of AGS CS involved,after all if their CS see fit to doctor documentation of firearms liscenses,whats to say some innocent somwhere hasnt been "fitted up" and is doing jail time because of their carry on???
How many criminal trials and reviews would have to be declared null and void,allowing more crims back on the streets because of this,compo paid for victims of "human rights" abuses etc??
This has gone far beyond a mere thing of firearms liscensing,it has and could have much more serious implications for the Govt and AGS.
He doesnt need to be embarrassed ,he is rightly embarrassed..

However I think they would take the "public saftey" cop out which was handed to them by that idiot going and taking some pot shots at the Gardai in Newport.Wouldnt be surprised if he is as cynical as Aherne and hangs some legislation on that tragedy.:(

Variations on "don't do it" Grizz, what else?

Who,when and where?

You're not a peasant, but did you actually ask anyone? I saw the article, called my NGB lad up on the phone and was told what was going on. There wasn't any secrecy to it, but the most effective route at the time was through the Minister's office, not through Madam's office in the Times.

Madames ofice in the "Toimes " never printed anything on this of course.
No Sparks,I just sat on my arse,,didnt bother calling anyone,didnt write a single word,or do anything...[Thats me being Sarcastic BTW:rolleyes:]. Got a we'll get back to you ,thats intresting sort of response from our NGBs and silence from most as to what was going on.

No Grizz, it's me saying that if the first thing you want to do is to haul a Minister over the coals in the press instead of sitting down with him and figuring out a way to avoid ever getting to this place again in the future, then you learnt nothing from the fun and games in 2004. And 2009. And all the other years before that when people took a run at a sitting Minister and suddenly learnt that that particular approach might feel good for a few days, but ultimately leads to you not getting what you want and probably losing more than you had to start with.

And this is what I'm trying to say or allude to... That how do we NOT know that this is not going on????

meathshooter1

I agree the FCP should have a say in things but you also have to remember the last minister lead them up the garden path,Hence the NARGC where left with no choice as where a lot of people who's only avenue left was the court.no one wants to see this getting blown out of proportion.the people involved in the case where not standing up to the state,they where only pointing out the injustice that was done on to them.there also seems to be a lot of I'm alright jack don't rock the boat ,which the last minister recognized and the rest is history.I would like to look to the future and see fellow shooters of all disciplines stick together as the NARGC HAVE DONE, as it is well know that the powers that be read this forum.lets hope Fianna Gael would not fallow Fianna fail policy we have all seen that destroy a legal sport not to mention the country .