This is fracking unbelievable, restart the gravy train, Leitrim to the rescue

Voodoo_rasher

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/europe-is-too-emotional-about-fracking-says-shell-chief-6316129.html.

Could they be Tamboran's bigger brother/silent partner? Just a thought.

Keep these €€€€s out whatever about T a m b o r a n. They already have

the inside track on us Irish.

pcworldisajoke

Pat Kenny is an absolute c*nt. Cutting off important points from anyone against fracking, and letting the others speak.

RTE, the propaganda arm of the Irish government, whos ministers are likely bought by the energy companies.

pcworldisajoke

Pat Rabitte attempting to undermine Irish fracking fears by mentioning the French ban on Fracking in the SAME sentence as their attack on our corporation tax rate. Pat Rabbite is a disingenuous little shlt that thinks we're suggestible morons in this country. He's been bought too.

GetWithIt

pcworldisajoke wrote: »

Pat Rabbite is a disingenuous little shlt that thinks we're suggestible morons in this country.

I think that's something we can all agree on.

pcworldisajoke

The president of UL says we'll be self sufficient if we do fracking.

The president of the UL hasnt a clue what he's on about, we won't own the gas that comes out of it.

What a f*ckhead. Another one who's been bought and promised a new wing on his University.

Yahew

pcworldisajoke wrote: »

The president of UL says we'll be self sufficient if we do fracking.

The president of the UL hasnt a clue what he's on about, we won't own the gas that comes out of it.

What a f*ckhead. Another one who's been bought and promised a new wing on his University.

Has everybody who opposes the insane ideology of the anti-frackers has been "bought".

pcworldisajoke

If anyone is wondering why companies are slow to Frack here in the past few years, it is because the cost of extraction is too far above current market levels. The price needs to be around 5 dollars per unit to make it profitable.

Pat Rabbite wont tell you that, because Pat Rabbite is a little shlt.

pcworldisajoke

Yahew wrote: »

Has everybody who opposes the insane ideology of the anti-frackers has been "bought".

in a word, no...but most of them are. There are of course simply a few idiots out there who will believe what they are spoonfed, but get no cash for their support.

The US system in particular sees jobs given to politicians in companies... the minute they walk out the door of their related government departments. It's an open book.

Lobbying is unfortunately at the root of almost every political decision in western democracies...and the people with the best and most well funded lobbying machines are Energy companies.

pcworldisajoke

Pat Kenny once again cuts to the MEP, and as she's making an excellent point about the Fracking company being able to sell their gas anywhere they want to (ie, it doesnt have to be Ireland), Kenny cuts to commercial.

Pat, it's getting fairly obvious now.

Mycroft H

There is a massive amount of complete bollocks being spouted about fracking. It makes my head hurt with the amount nonsensical rubbish. There is environmental concerns but the "wont someone please think of the children" crowd are really drowning out the factual arguments.

pcworldisajoke

BX 19 wrote: »

There is a massive amount of complete bollocks being spouted about fracking. It makes my head hurt with the amount nonsensical rubbish. There is environmental concerns but the "wont someone please think of the children" crowd are really drowning out the factual arguments.

the factual arguments that every single benefit that were being told we'll get is a complete fabrication? 'Won't someone please think of the energy companies' then, is that it?

1. they can sell it anywhere they want
2. therell be very few jobs, just shed loads of industry added to rural areas
3. tourism in those counties will be devastated, the pods are 200 metres long or somehting. Huge bastards.Who on earth will want to come to green old ireland anymore?? Its not like we're a big country
4. The tax take will be minimal
5. There COULD be an accident that could destroy tourism and agriculture in the whole shannon basin. It would only have to be small.
6. The history of regulation in this country is a joke
7. The notion that anyone could be prosecuted if something went wrong, like that last oil company lackeys said, when we havent even managed to take one banker to court in this country,...is a laughable notion that would be funny if not so sad.

Will ye go way out of that, ye dope.

brandon_flowers

pcworldisajoke wrote: »

the factual arguments that every single benefit that were being told we'll get is a complete fabrication? 'Won't someone please think of the energy companies' then, is that it?

1. they can sell it anywhere they want
2. therell be very few jobs, just shed loads of industry added to rural areas
3. tourism in those counties will be devastated, the pods are 200 metres long or somehting. Huge bastards.Who on earth will want to come to green old ireland anymore?? Its not like we're a big country
4. The tax take will be minimal
5. There COULD be an accident that could destroy tourism and agriculture in the whole shannon basin.

Will ye go way out of that, ye dope.

Your username spoils your argument.

pcworldisajoke

brandon_flowers wrote: »

Your username spoils your argument.

I personally don't think it matters Brandon Flowers.

pcworldisajoke

What people need to realise is one simple fact;

Politicians have shown themselves time and time again, to be lying, money hungry shlt. Not all of them, but a huge majority of the ones in power, as it's money that has got them there.

Now when you take the facts into account above, you have to ask, Cui Bono- who benefits?
Numbered bank accounts are aplenty in this world, as are promises of lucrative consulting positions after political office (it happens openly in the US).

Many of the people who contributed to political campaigns have direct relations to the big energy companies. And if they dont, they can be easily favoured with subsidiary contracts from the Energy companies, in return for influencing local politicians in countries.

The only people who can benefit from Fracking here are the energy companies, and the people with the power to give them permission to f*ck over an entire nation. The only time this gas could be of benefit to us, is if world war three breaks out, all international law goes out the window, and we go in there and take everything over. And we'll be shagged at that point anyway.

We'd make more money if we made it known to the world that Fracking will never happen in Ireland- tourists would appreciate that message more than any message we can blurt out about leprechauns and rolling hills, and i'd bet my left nut that tourism would increase. It should be our central marketing message. Get it out there, in every language. France is the most visited country on the planet, there's no prizes for guessing why they banned it outright- theyre smart, and understand their image.

IN 30 years there'll be a cleaner, safer way to get this stuff, for now, we should be concentrating on Green energy- of which there was not ONE mention tonight.

Public service broadcaster my hole.

iamthe43

BX 19 wrote: »

There is a massive amount of complete bollocks being spouted about fracking. It makes my head hurt with the amount nonsensical rubbish. There is environmental concerns but the "wont someone please think of the children" crowd are really drowning out the factual arguments.

I couldn't agree more with this...

This is a potentially very serious subject, so I just wish people would stop spouting ****e and let the grown ups debate about it.

Mycroft H

pcworldisajoke wrote: »

the factual arguments that every single benefit that were being told we'll get is a complete fabrication? 'Won't someone please think of the energy companies' then, is that it?

1. they can sell it anywhere they want
2. therell be very few jobs, just shed loads of industry added to rural areas
3. tourism in those counties will be devastated, the pods are 200 metres long or somehting. Huge bastards.Who on earth will want to come to green old ireland anymore?? Its not like we're a big country
4. The tax take will be minimal
5. There COULD be an accident that could destroy tourism and agriculture in the whole shannon basin.

Will ye go way out of that, ye dope.

Let me address that in order.

1. Yep, Its being like that for a long time in Ireland. This will be heading to the European market and will probably reduce the price per cubic foot of gas for the likes of Bord Gais.

2. Tamboran are saying they will create 600ish jobs in Leitrim. Thats pretty much on par with other drilling operations of that scale. Drilling/Fracking/Extraction is labour intensive, from the seismic surveys to interpret where you going to drill to actually transporting that gas to the nearest deep water port to be exported. Jobs all along the way.

3. Devastated? I think thats sensationalising it a little bit. Its true that any drilling operation is not the most picturesque thing and its one of the only point I'm going to partially agree with you there.

4. Yep, blame the Irish Government. Its been that way since 82. However it was changed to encourage inward investment. In the earlier periods, technology wasn't up to finding the gas/oil. Irish deposits are a little more different then the majority of British/Belgian/Norwegian that were discovered in the 60s.

5. Chance of accidents are minimal. Very minimal. However, there is a chance of the returned water spilling/leaking. Recent advancements have lead to near 50% of this water being used for fracturing again in other operations. The rest has to be chemically treated. Again there has been only a tiny percentage of accidents against many successful fracking operations (remember fracking has been used for 60 years in the US, its not a new tecnology, although recent advancements have improved its usefulness dramatically). And saying the whole Shannon basin could be destroyed, bollocks, underground aquifers don't extend from Leitrim to Limerick.

If having a BSc. (Hons) Geology degree makes me a dope on the subject, I'm all ears as to what makes me (sorta ) knowledgeable about it.

GetWithIt

pcworldisajoke wrote: »

the factual arguments that every single benefit that were being told we'll get is a complete fabrication? 'Won't someone please think of the energy companies' then, is that it?

1. they can sell it anywhere they want

It's a market with prices set internationally. Once you have extracted the gas the biggest cost is distribution and storage. Why would you liquify it, stick it on a ship and send it half way round the world when there's local market and distribution channel available?

Dey tuk er gas?

pcworldisajoke

BX19- you can say you have whatever pieces of paper you have you want.

• its been banned in the US until Cheney changed the law- so dont talk rubbish- its a ten year old industry.

• And if the chances of an accident are minimal..why are there so many lawsuits not only being settled, but continuing in the US, many of them against Tamboran Moorman's former company, southwest energy?

• And there are a few set up jobs yes, but much of them are outside expertise, and there's not many once the well is producing- its mostly mechanised. You don't see lads standing beside those oil wells in texas- those things just pump autonomously.

• And ok, maybe the whole shannon basin wouldnt be polluted, but huge lumps of it could be. Howe many frenchies are gonna buy our beef- how many big spending anglers are gonna go back to a stretch of river (any stretch of that river) once that **** hits the news??

None of your arguments have any traction whatsover. This is not safe, its not worth the risk, and the only people who won't get ANY benefit but who will take ALL the downside, will be our country, our people, our land, our environment.

And believe it or not, i might be slightly more open to the idea if we were gonna see any meaningful money out of it- people are dying on trolleys in this country, and on waiting lists...but we'll see such a small amount of money its just NEVER going to be worth it.

pcworldisajoke

GetWithIt wrote: »

It's a market with prices set internationally. Once you have extracted the gas the biggest cost is distribution and storage. Why would you liquify it, stick it on a ship and send it half way round the world when there's local market and distribution channel available?

Dey tuk er gas?

The point is they'll get the market price, and be in complete control. Our government wont be able to say diddly squat about how much we pay for it even if they wanted to, which they wouldnt, because theyre bought.

I wonder How hard it would be for the government to get the expertise and do it themselves. That other lad BX is a geologist- how f*cking hard is it to pump water down into a well and get the gas out- it sure don't sound like rocket science to me.

Ill tell you why- because there'll chemicals, and theyre proprietary information, secret. Thats the only way it has worked so far.

This is just such a huge pile of evil horseshlt I can't believe we're even considering it here.

Mycroft H

pcworldisajoke wrote: »

BX19- you can say you have whatever pieces of paper you want.

its been banned in the US until Cheney changed the law- so dont talk rubbish- its a ten year old industry.

And if the chances of an accident are minimal..why are there so many lawsuits not only being settled, but continuing in the US, many of them against Tamboran Moorman's former company, southwest energy?

And there are a few set up jobs, but not many once the well is producing- its mostly mechanised. You don't see lads standing beside those oil wells in texas- those things just pump autonomously.

And ok, maybe the whole shannon basin wouldnt be polluted, but huge lumps of it could be. Howe many frenchies are gonna buy our beef- how many big spending anglers are gonna go back to a stretch of river once that **** hits the news??

None of your arguments have and traction whatsover. This is not safe, its not worth the risk.

And believe it or not, i might be slightly more open to the idea if we were gonna see any meaningful money out of it- people are dying on trolleys in this country, and on waiting lists...but we'll see such a small amount of money its just NEVER going to be worth it.

Experimental fracturing happened in 1947 in Kansas. Quite a bit older then ten years. It was the one of the companies that formed Amoco, now part of BP. I can't remember the name of it at the moment.

And if you say that all of it is autonomous? You've never seen a gas rig have you? Who maintains these "autonomous" machines for example? 600 is a average figure for these type of operations.

Your sensaitionalising the whole argument here with hypothetical far out "what if" arguments. Environmental dangers are there, but there there with every plant dealing with chemicals in Ireland. Do we want the rest of them to up sticks too? The risk is minimal, its an old technology.

Don't get me wrong, I've yet to make up my mind on the operation as whether its a good idea or not, but I'll be weighing the arguments with a balanced and scientific view unlike most Irish people sadly.

Ohhh and pcwordisajoke, if you want to see the said piece of paper I'll post it up in a week when I get home.

EDIT;

http://www.jptonline.org/index.php?id=481

Quick potted history of fracking in the US. Peer reviewed scientific journal.

iamthe43

BX 19 wrote: »

Ohhh and pcwordisajoke, if you want to see the said piece of paper I'll post it up in a week when I get home.

Seriously mate, get off your high horse will ya...This isnt about who has the better piece of paper.

It is about someone caring for the environment they live in

Daroxtar

Ok, if the gas has been there for millions of years its fairly safe to assume that its not going anywhere for a while yet , so if Tamboran are serious about the 6000 jobs its going to create then why not start by firstly sponsoring degree courses in Oil and Gas engineering in Sligo IT, Letterkenny IT, GMIT, UCG, Athlone IT and whichever 3rd level institute is nearby in the North? Say 10 places per college, per year sustained for the length of time that they intend on drilling in the area. I mean, the gas is not going to evaporate and they have the exploration rights so no one else can take it either so this would be their way of building up a bit of trust and good feeling in the community, right?
They should also sponsor a similar amount of college places for degree courses in Enviornmental Science.
They'll also need technicians...same numbers again.
Considering how much money they are going to make out of it they should also invest in the colleges themselves, build new wings on each campus to facilitate the training of the engineers and technicians.

I cant see why they wouldn't do at least that much before liberating the gas. They'll be making billions but they are promising to put back plenty into the locality so why not start by putting the investment in first and we'll see how it goes from there? I reckon if they are serious about it they'll have no problem stumping up the funds in advance as a sign of their good natured intentions. Sure if you can't trust multinational Oil companies then who can you trust?

pcworldisajoke

It's not a safe tech, and it was off the radar for 40 odd years BX.

Moorman is in charge, and his former company is currently being sued in hundreds of separate incidents. Our Irish arses is no different that anyone elses BX, there's no reason ANY different will happen here.

It was taken out of the remit of the EPA by Cheney in 2005, and that's when companies started at it on a commercial scale, because they no longer faced proper regulation. There's no argument there, that's fact mate.

And, just because it was done in Kansas 47 years ago doesn't mean sh*t.Leonardo had a working helicopter spec 500 odd years ago, but it took a while for that one to come to market effectively.

Mycroft H

iamthe43 wrote: »

Seriously mate, get off your high horse will ya...This isnt about who has the better piece of paper.

It is about someone caring for the environment they live in

Well, I do care about the environment, hence I'll be making the balanced decision on it. pcworldisajoke was the one who made the call on it and pretty much said I wasn't qualified to make those statements.

Daroxtar wrote: »

Ok, if the gas has been there for millions of years its fairly safe to assume that its not going anywhere for a while yet , so if Tamboran are serious about the 6000 jobs its going to create then why not start by firstly sponsoring degree courses in Oil and Gas engineering in Sligo IT, Letterkenny IT, GMIT, UCG, Athlone IT and whichever 3rd level institute is nearby in the North? Say 10 places per college, per year sustained for the length of time that they intend on drilling in the area. I mean, the gas is not going to evaporate and they have the exploration rights so no one else can take it either so this would be their way of building up a bit of trust and good feeling in the community, right?
They should also sponsor a similar amount of college places for degree courses in Enviornmental Science.
They'll also need technicians...same numbers again.
Considering how much money they are going to make out of it they should also invest in the colleges themselves, build new wings on each campus to facilitate the training of the engineers and technicians.

I cant see why they wouldn't do at least that much before liberating the gas. They'll be making billions but they are promising to put back plenty into the locality so why not start by putting the investment in first and we'll see how it goes from there? I reckon if they are serious about it they'll have no problem stumping up the funds in advance as a sign of their good natured intentions. Sure if you can't trust multinational Oil companies then who can you trust?

Yep that gas is going nowhere quick. There an impermeable capstone which is sealing all the methane gas in. Its generally something like a super fine grained mudstone that seals everything below it. The gas being very light wants to rise but cannot get past that mudstone.

And +1 for the sponsoring idea, not too sure how it will happen at the minute as our licensing system for petroleum resources isn't the best imo as there is nothing to force the companies to do it.

pcworldisajoke

And the notion that one well is going to employ 600 people is the most bizarre stat ive heard in a long long time. The number wont be a tenth of that. This stuff would never be profitable if that were the case.

1. And dont forget the LOST tourist jobs in the local area just from the heavy industry alone, and the destruction of the area. Thats airlines, Ferries, hotels, adventure tourism, b and b's, pubs, restaurants, fisheries, cyclists etc..all taking a hit. A MASSIVE hit.
   
2. Now multiply that again by the psychological impact of tourists with an opinion on Ireland of a green clean land, learning via their own press, that there's fracking going on here, and huge opposition, and eyesores. They dont get the difference between lietrim, clare, Meath, or Carlow. We are a tiny nation, and the distances mean there would be very little discerning differentiation in the minds of tourists seeking out a beautuful quaint ireland. Think about their holiday decisions. This place is still as expensive as hell...so what else are they gonna come here for? Temple bar???
   
3. Now multiply that again by the impact of at least one inevitable accident/spill/escape of fluid into the water table hitting the international press.

Not worth the risk, because we'll never see any benefit. And im not even talking about the risks of a spill here folks. The only people who'll benefit are the bent politicians, the ones who are already bought, and the ones wholl be set up after they leave office with sweet consulting positions, and big bank accounts.

SURE WOULD YOU LOOK AT BERTIE THERE RECENTLY- HEADING UP A SWISS CONSORTIUM TRYING TO BUY COILLTE AFTER HE PASSED A LAW DICTATING THAT WE WERENT PERMITTED TO KNOW THE COILLTE RESOURCES UNDER THE FREEDOM OF INFORMATION ACT!!!! ARE YOU TELLING ME HE DID NOTHING, THE BENT LITTLE SCUMBAG, WHILE HE WAS IN OFFICE, TO BENEFIT SOMEONE ELSE WHO KNEW THEM???AND IS ANYONE TELLING ME THIS LOT ARE ANY DIFFERENT?!?!?!?! SHOULD WE TAKE THE CHANCE???

I hate talking in terms of money, because theres so much more important that that...but unfortunately its the only thing many people understand.

Cui Bono- who benefits. First rule of a murder investigation, the Cops look for the benefactor. Now the Irish people can't benefit, so who can?

I pray the Irish people open their eyes and dont listen to Mugs like Moorman and that UL professor- that made a complete holy show of himsaelf in my opinion. He added nothing to the discussion, and was clearly placed there in the hope that Irish people would say to themselves 'oh my god, he runs UL, he has to be right'!

I've met 5 year olds that could speak with more lucidity, relevance, and articulateness , than that corporate shill. No doubt repaying the favour he got when he was put in the job. Go watch it back on RTE player folks, and see for yourselves. Added NOTHING. pathetic. The moneyed interests in this country are cranking it up big time to get their way

KyussBishop

pcworldisajoke wrote: »

... Pat Rabbite is a disingenuous little shlt that thinks we're suggestible morons in this country. He's been bought too.

Hehe, funny reading posts like this, in the context of this article I saw earlier:
"Rabbitte set to examine 'difficult' area of online defamation"
http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/rabbitte-set-to-examine-difficult-area-of-online-defamation-538803.html


To add something to the discussion:
Even though it's a controversial documentary, I think Gasland is an excellent example of the dangers of fracking.

Some things in the documentary are said to be exaggerated or misleading (e.g. lot of controversy over tapwater being set alight); if you discount those parts of the film, there is still an overwhelming amount of unbelievable/hideous stuff that these fracking companies have gotten away with, which is plain to see.

Highly recommend people get a hold of that and watch it; even if the fracking companies here aren't as massively unhinged/unregulated as in the US, they deserve the utmost cynicism.

iamthe43

BX 19 wrote: »

Well, I do care about the environment, hence I'll be making the balanced decision on it. pcworldisajoke was the one who made the call on it and pretty much said I wasn't qualified to make those statements.

Trust me...There is so much **** being talked about this, and just because you have a "degree" doesnt mean you are qualified to talk about it.

I dont care about the environment. I care about my family. I care about my parents.My brothers. My sisters. My Aunts & Uncles...And until we are told the truth about this, it cant happen. I'm sorry, but its just the way it has to be.

iamthe43

Perhaps I should say that again...Just think about if for a minute

iamthe43 wrote: »

I dont care about the environment. I care about my family. I care about my parents.My brothers. My sisters. My Aunts & Uncles...And until we are told the truth about this, it cant happen. I'm sorry, but its just the way it has to be.

RichieC

http://switchboard.nrdc.org/blogs/amall/incidents_where_hydraulic_frac.html

interesting artical i stumbled on reading the fraccing wiki page.

pcworldisajoke

here's a picture of a well.

BX, can you tell me how 600 people get steady work out of one of them?

When you do, let me know the recipe to turn lead into Gold aswell while you're at it....


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/06/new-rules-disclosure-fracking-fluids_n_1258307.html

pcworldisajoke

99% freshwater and 1 percent fracking fluid spill...17 cows dead.

http://switchboard.nrdc.org/blogs/amall/how_toxic_are_hydraulic_fractu.html

MOSSAD

40 years ago the largest lead/zinc deposit was discovered in Navan, Co Meath, under the best farmland on this island. Imagine if it were to be discovered tomorrow, anti mining groups would be screaming about pollution, lead-poisoning, open-cast mining and essentially saying we'd all die if the orebody was to be exploited.
Look at the record of Tara Mines-the cleanest, safest heavy metal mine in the world, next to large urban centre and 30 miles from Dublin city centre, a tremendous boost to the Irish economy for years and much more.
Watching the anti-fracking people tonight on the Frontline, I'd not give them the time of day- self-styled pseudoenvironmentalists, ready to jump on any bandwagon just so they can listen to themselves shout.
To those opposed to fracking, be honest and don't use mobile phones, electricity, airplanes, cars......
In fact, how many of you have basic scientific training?

pcworldisajoke

MOSSAD wrote: »

40 years ago the largest lead/zinc deposit was discovered in Navan, Co Meath, under the best farmland on this island. Imagine if it were to be discovered tomorrow, anti mining groups would be screaming about pollution, lead-poisoning, open-cast mining and essentially saying we'd all die if the orebody was to be exploited.
Look at the record of Tara Mines-the cleanest, safest heavy metal mine in the world, next to large urban centre and 30 miles from Dublin city centre, a tremendous boost to the Irish economy for years and much more.
Watching the anti-fracking people tonight on the Frontline, I'd not give them the time of day- self-styled pseudoenvironmentalists, ready to jump on any bandwagon just so they can listen to themselves shout.
To those opposed to fracking, be honest and don't use mobile phones, electricity, airplanes, cars......
In fact, how many of you have basic scientific training?

Hi Mossad. Can you tellme...how many unknown chemicals are pumped with millions of gallons of water into a zinc mine? How many chemical runoffs are possible into the water tables of the biggest underground aquifer in the country? How many zinc mines were proposed? Was it one, or was it a few hundred 200 metre long eyesores?

Your comparison is completely irrelevant. Ladies and gentlemen of the jury please disregard the comments of the gentleman from the Mossad.:) He's trying to muddy the waters of what is already a difficult subject to decide upon.

Major Fail Mossad.

Millicent

pcworldisajoke wrote: »

Hi Mossad. Can you tellme...how many unknown chemicals are pumped with millions of gallons of water into a zinc mine? How many chemical runoffs are possible into the water tables of the biggest underground aquifer in the country? How many zinc mines were proposed? Was it one, or was it a few hundred 200 metre long eyesores?

Your comparison is completely irrelevant. Major Fail.

Have you noticed how dismissive you are of anyone whose points don't align with yours? That's not going to further your cause any. I'm genuinely not criticising, just warning that your manner is counter-productive to being respected in a debate.

Also, out of curiosity, since you keep bringing up the "unknown chemicals" used in fracking, why not email Tamboran and ask what their fracking solution uses? The email of the CEO is on the site. Why not take them up on their offer and ask them to answer all these questions you have?

pcworldisajoke

Hi Millicent. I apologise if i seem dismissive, im genuinely not. I just know for certain there are interests that come on websites with the express purpose of disinformation, trying to dilute messages. i know if i had a company that stood to make this much money, that i would. The energy lobby is the biggest in the world.

If someone comes on spouting about a 40 year old mine in navan, and tries to rubbish fracking concerns because of it, i feel they deserved to by dismissed- we cant allow ourselves to take our eye of the bal lhere for a second. Who benefits? We dont. So who will?

And on the subject of the unknown chemicals and asking Moorman - it's 'proprietary information'. So by law (which there is currently a proposal in the US to reverse- see link above about the picture of the well and read down), they wont tell as its a trade secret. The fact is they won't tell because they dont want anyone knowing what theyre putting into water tables...what will kill 17 cows at a .05% concentration..what is causing whole towns to be suing fracking companies all over the US.

Appreciate the critique though, genuinely.

mickydoomsux

Is their any actual independant scientific data on the environmental harm (or lack thereof) that fracking does.

It's seems to be one of those issues that all of the research is either done by the mining company themselves to make everything seem sunshine and lollipops or by eco-warrior pseudoscientists to show how the whole thing is going to kill us all again because the climate change angle sort of fizzled.

pcworldisajoke

mickydoom, i found these before

if you can accept the science is on a no fracking website, but is independant, then theres some science. Theres also a fraccidents map on google, but thats probably not strictly 'scientific.



SCIENCE
http://nofrackingireland.wordpress.com/reports/

at the bottom of this petition that seems to be closed for some reason


OTHER CLOSED PETITION WITH INFO
http://www.change.org/petitions/ban-destructive-gas-fracking-in-ireland


Map of accidents
http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&msa=0&msid=209825270514233970353.0004899ff5c6ef5ddf104&source=embed&ll=40.663973,-77.805176&spn=5.832868,10.437012&z=6

hope these help.

*and i dont see how the climate change thing fizzled- theres been more extreme weather in the last ten years than since records began. But thats another days work.

ardle1

To everybody,,, why would a professional company who EXPERTISE in mining (fracking) come into a Country and "purposely" ruin the surrounding area of work and put a stop to their money genarating works??? life is simple enough,, this is a fantastic venture,,, lets go for it. I dont see any negatives in this what so ever SORRY....

SafeSurfer

pcworldisajoke wrote: »

And the notion that one well is going to employ 600 people is the most bizarre stat ive heard in a long long time. The number wont be a tenth of that. This stuff would never be profitable if that were the case.

1. And dont forget the LOST tourist jobs in the local area just from the heavy industry alone, and the destruction of the area. Thats airlines, Ferries, hotels, adventure tourism, b and b's, pubs, restaurants, fisheries, cyclists etc..all taking a hit. A MASSIVE hit.
   
2. Now multiply that again by the psychological impact of tourists with an opinion on Ireland of a green clean land, learning via their own press, that there's fracking going on here, and huge opposition, and eyesores. They dont get the difference between lietrim, clare, Meath, or Carlow. We are a tiny nation, and the distances mean there would be very little discerning differentiation in the minds of tourists seeking out a beautuful quaint ireland. Think about their holiday decisions. This place is still as expensive as hell...so what else are they gonna come here for? Temple bar???
   
3. Now multiply that again by the impact of at least one inevitable accident/spill/escape of fluid into the water table hitting the international press.

Not worth the risk, because we'll never see any benefit. And im not even talking about the risks of a spill here folks. The only people who'll benefit are the bent politicians, the ones who are already bought, and the ones wholl be set up after they leave office with sweet consulting positions, and big bank accounts.

SURE WOULD YOU LOOK AT BERTIE THERE RECENTLY- HEADING UP A SWISS CONSORTIUM TRYING TO BUY COILLTE AFTER HE PASSED A LAW DICTATING THAT WE WERENT PERMITTED TO KNOW THE COILLTE RESOURCES UNDER THE FREEDOM OF INFORMATION ACT!!!! ARE YOU TELLING ME HE DID NOTHING, THE BENT LITTLE SCUMBAG, WHILE HE WAS IN OFFICE, TO BENEFIT SOMEONE ELSE WHO KNEW THEM???AND IS ANYONE TELLING ME THIS LOT ARE ANY DIFFERENT?!?!?!?! SHOULD WE TAKE THE CHANCE???

I hate talking in terms of money, because theres so much more important that that...but unfortunately its the only thing many people understand.

Cui Bono- who benefits. First rule of a murder investigation, the Cops look for the benefactor. Now the Irish people can't benefit, so who can?

I pray the Irish people open their eyes and dont listen to Mugs like Moorman and that UL professor- that made a complete holy show of himsaelf in my opinion. He added nothing to the discussion, and was clearly placed there in the hope that Irish people would say to themselves 'oh my god, he runs UL, he has to be right'!

I've met 5 year olds that could speak with more lucidity, relevance, and articulateness , than that corporate shill. No doubt repaying the favour he got when he was put in the job. Go watch it back on RTE player folks, and see for yourselves. Added NOTHING. pathetic. The moneyed interests in this country are cranking it up big time to get their way

The jobs figures are : 5 locals in direct employment, 55 ex special forces Latvians as security against the other locals.

ardle1

pcworldisajoke wrote: »

And the notion that one well is going to employ 600 people is the most bizarre stat ive heard in a long long time. The number wont be a tenth of that. This stuff would never be profitable if that were the case.

1. And dont forget the LOST tourist jobs in the local area just from the heavy industry alone, and the destruction of the area. Thats airlines, Ferries, hotels, adventure tourism, b and b's, pubs, restaurants, fisheries, cyclists etc..all taking a hit. A MASSIVE hit.
   
2. Now multiply that again by the psychological impact of tourists with an opinion on Ireland of a green clean land, learning via their own press, that there's fracking going on here, and huge opposition, and eyesores. They dont get the difference between lietrim, clare, Meath, or Carlow. We are a tiny nation, and the distances mean there would be very little discerning differentiation in the minds of tourists seeking out a beautuful quaint ireland. Think about their holiday decisions. This place is still as expensive as hell...so what else are they gonna come here for? Temple bar???
   
3. Now multiply that again by the impact of at least one inevitable accident/spill/escape of fluid into the water table hitting the international press.

Not worth the risk, because we'll never see any benefit. And im not even talking about the risks of a spill here folks. The only people who'll benefit are the bent politicians, the ones who are already bought, and the ones wholl be set up after they leave office with sweet consulting positions, and big bank accounts.

SURE WOULD YOU LOOK AT BERTIE THERE RECENTLY- HEADING UP A SWISS CONSORTIUM TRYING TO BUY COILLTE AFTER HE PASSED A LAW DICTATING THAT WE WERENT PERMITTED TO KNOW THE COILLTE RESOURCES UNDER THE FREEDOM OF INFORMATION ACT!!!! ARE YOU TELLING ME HE DID NOTHING, THE BENT LITTLE SCUMBAG, WHILE HE WAS IN OFFICE, TO BENEFIT SOMEONE ELSE WHO KNEW THEM???AND IS ANYONE TELLING ME THIS LOT ARE ANY DIFFERENT?!?!?!?! SHOULD WE TAKE THE CHANCE???

I hate talking in terms of money, because theres so much more important that that...but unfortunately its the only thing many people understand.

Cui Bono- who benefits. First rule of a murder investigation, the Cops look for the benefactor. Now the Irish people can't benefit, so who can?

I pray the Irish people open their eyes and dont listen to Mugs like Moorman and that UL professor- that made a complete holy show of himsaelf in my opinion. He added nothing to the discussion, and was clearly placed there in the hope that Irish people would say to themselves 'oh my god, he runs UL, he has to be right'!

I've met 5 year olds that could speak with more lucidity, relevance, and articulateness , than that corporate shill. No doubt repaying the favour he got when he was put in the job. Go watch it back on RTE player folks, and see for yourselves. Added NOTHING. pathetic. The moneyed interests in this country are cranking it up big time to get their way

I dont beat around the bush, and I'm an educated man,, as you speak,, you are obviously a tree hugger "no offence" ... GET MINING AND GET DRILLING A.S.A.P,,, .... Oh by the way we have an environment have we,, I've seen the Great Barrier Reef on TV!!!

NakedNNettles

ardle1 wrote: »

I dont beat around the bush, and I'm an educated man,, as you speak,, you are obviously a tree hugger "no offence" ... GET MINING AND GET DRILLING A.S.A.P,,, .... Oh by the way we have an environment have we,, I've seen the Great Barrier Reef on TV!!!

Ya! You're a real straight talkin' no BS kind of lad, fair play! :rolleyes:

An educated man you say, you seem more like a bull in a china shop, to hell with everyone, money money money....lets worry about the consequences later. Basically the very things that drove this country up onto the rocks.

Yeah we have an environment, it's all around ya.

Gas lobby are pushing hard on this fracking recently, there in trying to take advantage of our dire situation. Anyway if it it all goes tits up you can be sure the gas boys gone as quick as their legs can carry them, they won't be paying out for any clean up.

Country's in a mess, let's not make it worse.

mikeym

Dont trust the whole fracking thing and if I was living up in Leitrim id be very worried.

Michael 09

Sky King wrote: »

Tipp Man wrote: »

Ever hear of costs???

Yes, costs are what companies use as a means to avoid paying tax. Pat Rabbitte told us all about jacking up the tax rate on profits made from Corrib, but it's pretty easy to pay 'consultancy fees' of 25% turnover to a company based in Bermuda (also owned by the same expoloration company).

Profit made in Ireland : €0
Tax paid on profit made in ireland is nice high percentage... of €0

Ah I see that you are not familiar with the new transfer pricing legislation. Can't do that anymore

thebostoncrab

I have t made up my mind on fracking, in fact before today I knew nothing on the subject. But after reading the whole thread, I just want to say that alot of the posters that are against it are doing themselves no favours at all with how they are debating. You are resorting to questioning anyone who opposes your idea as stupid, lacking intelligence and working "for the man" as it were. While I am not seeing the same coming from those you are debating with, just people asking you to not resort to personal digs and insults. That attitude makes me it alot more difficult for me to want to side with and support your cause.

NakedNNettles

thebostoncrab wrote: »

I have t made up my mind on fracking, in fact before today I knew nothing on the subject. But after reading the whole thread, I just want to say that alot of the posters that are against it are doing themselves no favours at all with how they are debating. You are resorting to questioning anyone who opposes your idea as stupid, lacking intelligence and working "for the man" as it were. While I am not seeing the same coming from those you are debating with, just people asking you to not resort to personal digs and insults. That attitude makes me it alot more difficult for me to want to side with and support your cause.

Well if you are looking for educated debate then you're in the wrong forum, this is after hours FFS.

Whether you're for or against it won't make a blind bit of difference unless it's on your doorstep they're planning to drill. It's the people who are directly affected who will cast their vote and at the moment that looks like 'Against it' and sure could you blame them. Every man, woman and child in Leitrim is as entitled to clean water and chemical free environment as the next part of the country.

Only skimmed through the thread so sorry it this was mentioned before:

(can't take credit for spotting this either, it was my boss)

2.2 trillion cubic feet = 2,200,000,000,000
$2.50 per 1000 cubic feet
2.2trillion/1000 = 2,200,000,000
2,200,000,000 * $2.5 = 5,500,000,000

$5.5 billion, not $55 billion

nedzer2011

NakedNNettles wrote: »

Well if you are looking for educated debate then you're in the wrong forum, this is after hours FFS.

True enough, but I think it's pretty reflective of some of the uneducated 'shouting down' being done by some members the anti-frac side.

Whether you're for or against it won't make a blind bit of difference unless it's on your doorstep they're planning to drill. It's the people who are directly affected who will cast their vote and at the moment that looks like 'Against it' and sure could you blame them. Every man, woman and child in Leitrim is as entitled to clean water and chemical free environment as the next part of the country.

Just a slightly off-topic thought (which I'm completely open to correction on) but I wonder how many of the anti-frac side who want to ensure clean drinking water for themselves and their children also oppose the new septic tank charges and regulations?

These charges and accompanying regulations have been brought about to ensure that risk of pollution caused to groundwater by faulty tanks is minimised, yet people are up in arms against their introduction.
I accept that the polluting agents and potential risk to human health aren't directly comparable but is there a slight hint of double standards?

pcworldisajoke

double post

pcworldisajoke

yet another attept to muddy the waters and distract from the questions at hand-

you ask are those opposed to fracking also opposed to septic tank charges and then you tell us that we are, and that we have double standards. Why ask the question at all nedzer?????

go start a thread on those charges somewhere else. This is a completely unrelated topic.

nedzer2011

Perhaps my phrasing was a bit off.. apologies.

The aggressive tone however is unwarranted and is typical of some of the shouting, bordering on intimidation that we've seen in this thread. Terrible debate.