Unions Demand Return Of Teachers Allowances

Freddie59

Are these people in the real world?

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0201/teachers.html

The Teachers' Union of Ireland has called for the immediate reversal of a Government decision to suspend the payment of allowances to new teachers.

The decision reduces the pay of new entrants by up to several thousand euro.
The Association of Secondary Teachers Ireland has also strongly criticised the decision, which both unions say was taken unilaterally with no consultation.

The move affects allowances paid to teachers over and above their basic salary.

A teacher with an Honours Higher Diploma gets an additional €1,200 per year, for example, while an Honours Masters Degree attracts an extra €5,500.

DrumSteve

Lol they can **** off

finlma

Of course they should get allowances. If you're more qualified in the private sector you get better pay as you offer more to the job. A teacher with a Masters degree should be paid more than a teacher with a normal pass degree.

It's very shortsighted to get rid of allowances. They cost very little in the grand scheme of things. If they are not offered then no one will look to educate themselves further. We need to be investing in education and improving the skillset of teachers. Getting rid of allowances is a retrograde step.

By the way a new teacher entering the profession now starts on less than €28k a year. Their weekly take home pay is not a whole lot better than the minimum wage. If we expect to get good quality teachers then we're going the wrong way about it.

sensibleken

Yes, unions are there to argue the case for their members. Thats their job.

44leto

Teaching!!! the best paid part-time job in the country, now they do a PR campaign at how hard their job is, well the only ones that will be listening are the people in their staff rooms.

Freddie59

finlma wrote: »

By the way a new teacher entering the profession now starts on less than €28k a year. Their weekly take home pay is not a whole lot better than the minimum wage.

Our daughter is training to be an accountant (final year). Earning less than that. Ireland 2012. Suck it up.

Geuze

Trainee acc earning less than qualified teacher.

But when qualified, the acc will probably earn more than the teacher.

Sad.

We pay people more to move money than to educate our children.

biko

Ok just to be clear, this thread is about the various allowances.
Any general teacher bashing will get a smack and/or some time in the corner

Pissmire

If their earnings were performance related they'd work harder for what they got. Good performance = more pay. Poor performance = down the road. If that's not an incentive, nothing is.

mikemac1

You seem surprised OP, unions are there to lobby for their members

If they just accepted cuts and said nothing they'd be a pretty useless union

JohnK

finlma wrote: »

By the way a new teacher entering the profession now starts on less than €28k a year. Their weekly take home pay is not a whole lot better than the minimum wage. If we expect to get good quality teachers then we're going the wrong way about it.

When I started my first job about 8 years ago I was on either €20,000 or €22,000 so whats the big problem with someone starting at €28,000?

GetWithIt

Just a thought, why don't the various govt bodies suspend these payments in the middle of summer?

finlma

Freddie59 wrote: »

Our daughter is training to be an accountant (final year). Earning less than that. Ireland 2012. Suck it up.

You expect your trainee daughter to earn more than a qualified professional teacher???? Shows the respect people have for those educating their children.

Chucky the tree

finlma wrote: »

Of course they should get allowances. If you're more qualified in the private sector you get better pay as you offer more to the job. A teacher with a Masters degree should be paid more than a teacher with a normal pass degree.

It's very shortsighted to get rid of allowances. They cost very little in the grand scheme of things. If they are not offered then no one will look to educate themselves further. We need to be investing in education and improving the skillset of teachers. Getting rid of allowances is a retrograde step.

By the way a new teacher entering the profession now starts on less than €28k a year. Their weekly take home pay is not a whole lot better than the minimum wage. If we expect to get good quality teachers then we're going the wrong way about it.

€28k a year for 9 months of work is excellent. That's 37k for a 12 month schedule.

finlma

JohnK wrote: »

When I started my first job about 8 years ago I was on either €20,000 or €22,000 so whats the big problem with someone starting at €28,000?

People who study for 4 years and get a degree deserve to be rewarded as a qualified professional. If you did thiis then you were underpaid.

Gee Bag

Teachers get 3-4 months paid holidays a year, a short working day and a job you can't be fired from regardless of your level of competence.

With all this current nonsense about early retirement and subsequent rehiring their unions should really be keeping their heads down and their mouth shut.

Pete M.

What would you expect the teacher's Unions to do?

Thank the Government for cutting the allowances?

Obviously some of the people round these here parts aren't engaged with 'the real world' if they expect the continued vicious austerity for the benefit of the wealthy elite to go unopposed.

The same people giving out about this would also likely be the ones calling for the Public Sector Agreement to be scrapped.

But be careful what you wish for. This is all that has prevented there being widescale Union action against the ongoing cuts.

The teacher's Unions are just doing what they are meant to do.
And fair play to them...

finlma

Everyone got the same CAO form. Maybe some couldn't get the required high number of points to become a teacher. Complaining about the summer holidays smacks of bitterness.

Odysseus

I agree with the teachers, I work for the HSE I am more qualified than most of the other therapists I work with. I put in the extra work to train to a higher degree, so I think that should be reflected in my wages.

In the private sector you are generally better paid the higher educated you are. I hope to get the cash to pay for a PhD, when I do so my clients will benefit, the service I work for will benefit, but personally within my job I won't. Should that be the the case?

If you want better trained people you have to pay for it.

mickoneill30

finlma wrote: »

Of course they should get allowances. If you're more qualified in the private sector you get better pay as you offer more to the job. A teacher with a Masters degree should be paid more than a teacher with a normal pass degree.

That doesn't sound right to me. I've been in the private sector for a long time. I've never been in a company where people have gotten more because of their qualification. E.g. if 4 people come in at a basic role then the 4 people get paid the same. The guy with the better qualifications may be better than the other 3 and may get promoted because the qualification makes him / her better at the job but there's no guarantee of that and certainly they don't have a right to more money just because they've more education.

Chucky the tree

finlma wrote: »

Everyone got the same CAO form. Maybe some couldn't get the required high number of points to become a teacher. Complaining about the summer holidays smacks of bitterness.

I simply pointed out the facts. Complaining about 28k a year for 9 months of work in the middle of Ireland's worst ever financial crisis and with 14% unemployment smacks of delusion.

louiseok01

These measures are disgraceful...the gov should be focusing on job creation, trying to attract new companies to Ireland...not looking cutting wages of new teachers.

Gophur

finlma wrote: »

Of course they should get allowances. If you're more qualified in the private sector you get better pay as you offer more to the job. A teacher with a Masters degree should be paid more than a teacher with a normal pass degree.

It's very shortsighted to get rid of allowances. They cost very little in the grand scheme of things. If they are not offered then no one will look to educate themselves further. We need to be investing in education and improving the skillset of teachers. Getting rid of allowances is a retrograde step.

By the way a new teacher entering the profession now starts on less than €28k a year. Their weekly take home pay is not a whole lot better than the minimum wage. If we expect to get good quality teachers then we're going the wrong way about it.

Why should the State have to pay more to a teacher because of his/her qualifications, if he/she is doing the exact same job as someone with lesser qualifications?

All the degrees you can get will not necessarily make you a better teacher.

Irish teachers are paid very well, even under the new scales.

Do you not understand that we cannot continue to
1. borrow the money to pay Public/Civil Servants
and
2. continue to pay our Public/Civil Servants (including teachers) well over the European averages, while complaining about the interest rates we're paying on bail-out funding.

Teaching is a hard job. It's also a very cushy job. Class hours are very small and holidays are generous.

gurramok

louiseok01 wrote: »

These measures are disgraceful...the gov should be focusing on job creation, trying to attract new companies to Ireland...not looking cutting wages of new teachers.

Complain to the IMF or Angela Merkel, take your pick. It has not got through to some people yet that Ireland is broke and will be broke for many years to come.

Southeast1

I'm just curious what all these teacher bashers think is an acceptable weekly salary for a teacher starting out, teaching full hours???

Also what do they think is an acceptable weekly wage for ateacher with lets say 10 years experience?

Balmed Out

I think its fair enough, you wont get paid more in the private sector for a better degree it just makes it bit easier to get a job in the first place.
Teaching to be fair is a tougher job then most and they do more hours then the schoolday.

JohnK

finlma wrote: »

People who study for 4 years and get a degree deserve to be rewarded as a qualified professional. If you did thiis then you were underpaid.

Why should that be the case? If you're hired to do Job X then thats what you'll be doing regardless of the years of study you do. As you prove your worth to the company then by all means let them increase what you're paid. Thats how things work in the real world; when I left that job I was on more money than people who started in the same job at the same time but with higher qualifications.

louiseok01

I think it is discriminatory against new teachers. Cuts should apply to all teaching staff. As it stands new teachers will receive 18% less than other teachers for doing the same job. This is unjust. New teachers are being picked on again because the gov know that they do not have a voice. They already took a 10% salary reduction in Jan and now this...its crazy.
I did a masters and it cost 15, ooo euro. People will not do MAs etc if they do not receive some incentive for doing it.

Sin1981

Having a MSc or PhD bears no reflection on how well you can teach. the ability to teach is mostly learned/taught during the teacher training year. A higher degrees means you have more knowledge in your subject, not better able to teach. (and I have a Phd)
Some of these allowances are for getting your HDip, some are for playground supvision etc etc. This should be in your contract and you shouldn't get paid more for these duties.

IMO fair pay for teachers would be calculated by looking at pay in the top 6/7 Western European countries, and finding the average of these figures. That is very fair.

Also, I am not paid more for my Phd in my company, and I have a few years experience. This is 2012 in a awful recession. As someone said already. Suck it up!

micropig

finlma wrote: »

Of course they should get allowances. If you're more qualified in the private sector you get better pay as you offer more to the job. A teacher with a Masters degree should be paid more than a teacher with a normal pass degree.

It's very shortsighted to get rid of allowances. They cost very little in the grand scheme of things. If they are not offered then no one will look to educate themselves further. We need to be investing in education and improving the skillset of teachers. Getting rid of allowances is a retrograde step.

By the way a new teacher entering the profession now starts on less than €28k a year. Their weekly take home pay is not a whole lot better than the minimum wage. If we expect to get good quality teachers then we're going the wrong way about it.

The thing about teachers bonus' is that you get a bonus for having the basic qualification to do the job

http://www.asti.ie/pay-and-conditions/pay/qualification-allowances/

Southeast1

People also seem to forget that a great many teachers starting out do not get full teaching hours. Therefore they could easily be earning 3/4 or 1/2 of €28,000 and still be in school for the full day, every day. Take a pension levy out of that and you are on almost nothing.

To me it is nothing short of age discrimination.

Also I note that nobody answered my question. What do they consider to be an acceptable weekly wage for teachers starting out?
And also what is acceptable after 10 years?

JohnK

Sin1981 wrote: »

Having a MSc or PhD bears no reflection on how well you can teach. the ability to teach is mostly learned/taught during the teacher training year. A higher degrees means you have more knowledge in your subject, not better able to teach.

Well said. No matter how well you know a particular subject if you cant pass on that knowledge you're going to be useless as a teacher and I think its probably safe to say we've all encountered teachers like that who give the whole profession a bad name.

micropig

Just thought I link this as well for reference

Public & Private Sector Weekly Earnings Details and Statistics

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055750520

gurramok

louiseok01 wrote: »

I think it is discriminatory against new teachers. Cuts should apply to all teaching staff. As it stands new teachers will receive 18% less than other teachers for doing the same job. This is unjust. New teachers are being picked on again because the gov know that they do not have a voice. They already took a 10% salary reduction in Jan and now this...its crazy. .

Existing teachers like all public servants are protected by the CPA. Did you see these unions protecting new teachers back when they negotiated the CPA? Hell no.

Seachmall

Southeast1 wrote: »

Also what do they think is an acceptable weekly wage for ateacher with lets say 10 years experience?

Pay increases should not be based solely on experience but on effectiveness.

I'm sure everybody here can recall a crap teacher with 15+ years experience and a great teacher with less than five.

micropig

Southeast1 wrote: »

People also seem to forget that a great many teachers starting out do not get full teaching hours. Therefore they could easily be earning 3/4 or 1/2 of €28,000 and still be in school for the full day, every day. Take a pension levy out of that and you are on almost nothing.

To me it is nothing short of age discrimination.

Also I note that nobody answered my question. What do they consider to be an acceptable weekly wage for teachers starting out?
And also what is acceptable after 10 years?

Very true about getting the full time hours unfortunetly:(

smash

Freddie59 wrote: »

The Teachers' Union of Ireland has called for the immediate reversal of a Government decision to suspend the payment of allowances to new teachers.

The Teachers' Union of Ireland should be told to go fcuk themselves. In the private sector, you get paid based on performance. It should be the same for them.

jester77

louiseok01 wrote: »

I think it is discriminatory against new teachers. Cuts should apply to all teaching staff. As it stands new teachers will receive 18% less than other teachers for doing the same job. This is unjust. New teachers are being picked on again because the gov know that they do not have a voice. They already took a 10% salary reduction in Jan and now this...its crazy.
I did a masters and it cost 15, ooo euro. People will not do MAs etc if they do not receive some incentive for doing it.

Is furthering your education and employment prospects not enough of a reason to do a Masters? If you are only doing it for the money then you are doing it for the wrong reason and you should let someone else take that place.

I Heart Internet

Odysseus wrote: »

In the private sector you are generally better paid the higher educated you are.

This might be through on a broad, statistical level but I have never, ever, ever seen a job advert or heard about a job in the private sector where having a particular level of education has automatically got you a higher salary. As someone else said here it tends to be based on experience and successful performance - as it should be.

As someone who has a very close relative hoping to graduate as a teacher in the next coupel of years I applaud the Govt for this decision.

The allowances are to be reviewed and there are some (such as the ability to teach in Irish) that are well worth retaining imo.

While acknowledging the good work most teachers do and knowing that the plural of anecdote isn't data - my experience of teachers in my own circle of friends and family is that they are underworked and very likely to pop up on Facebook at 4.15 on a Tuesday afternoon saying something along the lines of "Thank God that day is over!!"

Chuck Stone

finlma wrote: »

People who study for 4 years and get a degree deserve to be rewarded as a qualified professional. If you did thiis then you were underpaid.

Bullshit.

They deserve to get rewarded for performance as educators - not because of qualification.

I know a couple of teachers personally who are worth a multiple of the money they get for the time and care they put into the job.

I've also been 'taught' by teachers who should never have lasted a month in job and are still driving in and out of the school I went to. Well paid and good conditions for decades of utter incompetence and affecting the later life opportunities their 'students'.

Sort that **** out and then we can start having a serious conversation.

micropig

AVERAGE wages of teachers / week in 2008 €946.47

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055750520


Remember average, some will earn more/less

ejmaztec

finlma wrote: »

Everyone got the same CAO form. Maybe some couldn't get the required high number of points to become a teacher. Complaining about the summer holidays smacks of bitterness.

Do I get a gold star if I can guess what you do for a living?:P

Southeast1

Micropig. Your link to the figures on earnings only goes as far as 2008. Since the earnings in the education sector have gone down by over 15 percent.

Anyway this thread is about new teachers whose salary's are also 10% less than those who started pre 2011, who start on a lower point of the scale, have to pay a pension levy for a different scheme to other workers and who now are having allowances removed.

Teachers benefit far more from allowances than other PS workers and over the years they have come to be seen as core pay. Rightly or wrongly this is the case. For most teachers removal of allowances would amount to 5,000 or more out of the gross salary.

Finally 28000 divided by 52 wks is a salary of €538 before any deductions.
Far, far less than the figures suggested by your table which takes averages from the higher points on the salary scales that take teachers oveer 25 yr to reach.

micropig

ejmaztec wrote: »

Do I get a gold star if I can guess what you do for a living?:P

No but I'll give you a gold star if you guess what I do;)

Geuze

Existing teachers took 2 pay cuts.

New teachers face 4 pay cuts.

The pain is not being spread evenly.

micropig

Southeast1 wrote: »

Micropig. Your link to the figures on earnings only goes as far as 2008. Since the earnings in the education sector have gone down by over 15 percent.

Anyway this thread is about new teachers whose salary's are also 10% less than those who started pre 2011, who start on a lower point of the scale, have to pay a pension levy for a different scheme to other workers and who now are having allowances removed.

Teachers benefit far more from allowances than other PS workers and over the years they have come to be seen as core pay. Rightly or wrongly this is the case. For most teachers removal of allowances would amount to 5,000 or more out of the gross salary.

Finally 28000 divided by 52 wks is a salary of €538 before any deductions.
Far, far less than the figures suggested by your table which takes averages from the higher points on the salary scales that take teachers oveer 25 yr to reach.

These figures suit better? Teacher appointed after Jan2011

http://www.asti.ie/pay-and-conditions/pay/salary-scale/salary-scale-for-teachers-appointed-after-january-2011/


http://www.asti.ie/pay-and-conditions/pay/qualification-allowances/


Can you justify the length of the holidays?

Sin1981

...to anyone who feels that people are unfair to teachers etc, remember that if they are complaining about the pay and conditions of public service employees, it's probably not because they are jealous. it's because, if they are a tax payer themselves, then they are entitled to have a say on how public funds are spent given that we are borrowing from outside to pay to run the country. so please please stop playing the 'you're just jealous card'!

P.C.

Southeast1 wrote: »

People also seem to forget that a great many teachers starting out do not get full teaching hours. Therefore they could easily be earning 3/4 or 1/2 of €28,000 and still be in school for the full day, every day. Take a pension levy out of that and you are on almost nothing.

To me it is nothing short of age discrimination.

Also I note that nobody answered my question. What do they consider to be an acceptable weekly wage for teachers starting out?
And also what is acceptable after 10 years?

Acceptable wage for teachers starting out - about €400 a week.

From there, the increases should be based on performance.

I Heart Internet

Southeast1 wrote: »

Finally 28000 divided by 52 wks is a salary of €538 before any deductions.

Now class, does anyone know why the above calculation is flawed. I'll give you a clue, one reason ryhmes with Lune, Luly and Laugust. And the other one rhymes with - can't be fired unless you steal a child.

smash

A teacher I knew a few years ago was complaining about her wages being cut. She was on over 60k, did around 15 hours a week and had a 2nd job cash in hand at a drama school. She was able to go out 4/5 times a month and put away 550 a month into her savings. She complained about not being able to upgrade her 2yr old car and not having enough disposable income to buy from the latest stock rails in designer shops. God forbid she'd have to ever go to an outlet store to buy clothes either, because that's out of fashion!

I also have 3 family members who are teachers earning a healthy salary and taking multiple holidays abroad throughout the year.

P.C.

Geuze wrote: »

Existing teachers took 2 pay cuts.

New teachers face 4 pay cuts.

The pain is not being spread evenly.

New teachers are not facing any 'cuts'.
New teachers are starting on different contracts to the existing teachers.

These new contracts should have been introduced a few years ago.
I am glad they are finally here.

There will be a lot more new contracts in the public sector over the next few years.