Unions Demand Return Of Teachers Allowances

Feeona

Freddie59 wrote: »

Fair play to you for your honesty. She can't admit it, because she is an actual bottom feeder.

I take it from that nasty comment that you are the bottom feeder you thought you weren't.

Good luck with your life man. You'll need it.

Over and out.

Freddie59

Feeona wrote: »

I think you're blinkered if you believe this. Only a bitter person could start a thread like this one.

There ya go, going off one one because someone disagrees with you. This is the reality:

* The country is bankrupt. And will be for many years.

* PS incremental pay needs to be suspended immediately, as part of a sustained campaign to drive down costs, as would happen in the real world.

* As another poster pointed out, teachers, etc must come to the reality that they are not 'special' in some way. They - like the rest of us - are merely ding a (very well-paid) job.

"Blinkers" infers someone who is letting the world pass them by, in the hope that the problems directly affecting them will go away. Like yourself.

Were RTE "bitter" in reporting the same?

Freddie59

Feeona wrote: »

I take it from that nasty comment that you are the bottom feeder you thought you weren't.

Good luck with your life man. You'll need it.

Over and out.

Life doesn't take luck. It takes hard work, honesty, and a dose of reality every now and again. I am truly very sorry to hear that you lost your job BTW.

byhookorbycrook

* once more for those not paying atention*
The allowances etc are being cut for new teachers.
53,000 is top of the scale for those with over 25 years worked-before any deductions.

This is screwing younger teachers, plain and simple.

As to payment by results,I am a learning support teacher, if I were to be paid by results, do you suggest that I would only take the children above sten 3 and let the children with difficulties go swing?

People seem to think that they know all about education because they were once at school .I go to the dentist but that doesn't mean I am qualified to do her job.

byhookorbycrook

micropig wrote: »

Junior and senior infants are seen to be on par with kindergarden in other countries.

Wiki link I know but I'll provide more if required (and the opposite of this is backed up by link)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland


Maybe we should also look at downgrading the salaries of teachers who teacher these years in line with other childcare providers?

Ok, this ,for me,sums up people who really don't have a clue about teaching. Infant classes are the most important for any child,it is here the foundations for life-long learning are laid.Ever heard of early intervention?Aistear etc???

44leto

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

* once more for those not paying atention*
The allowances etc are being cut for new teachers.
53,000 is top of the scale for those with over 25 years worked-before any deductions.

This is screwing younger teachers, plain and simple.

As to payment by results,I am a learning support teacher, if I were to be paid by results, do you suggest that I would only take the children above sten 3 and let the children with difficulties go swing?

People seem to think that they know all about education because they were once at school .I go to the dentist but that doesn't mean I am qualified to do her job.

It is, but do you think they should pay a new generation of teacher the same rates in totally different economic conditions.

This policy will go right across the PS, I don't know if your up on current affairs but the IMF were in town and it is looking like they will be coming back.

micropig

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

* once more for those not paying atention*
The allowances etc are being cut for new teachers.
53,000 is top of the scale for those with over 25 years worked-before any deductions.

This is screwing younger teachers, plain and simple.

As to payment by results,I am a learning support teacher, if I were to be paid by results, do you suggest that I would only take the children above sten 3 and let the children with difficulties go swing?

People seem to think that they know all about education because they were once at school .I go to the dentist but that doesn't mean I am qualified to do her job.

Why would you do this, can pupils with SEN not show progress and achieve

Students showing progress and achievement is not about all students getting A1's

Get a base line of each students knowledge and same at the
end of year = shows what the student has learned and retained

If a D average student improves to be obtain C, surely this shows the student is learning?

bamboozle

Freddie59 wrote: »

There ya go, going off one one because someone disagrees with you. This is the reality:

* The country is bankrupt. And will be for many years.

* PS incremental pay needs to be suspended immediately, as part of a sustained campaign to drive down costs, as would happen in the real world.

* As another poster pointed out, teachers, etc must come to the reality that they are not 'special' in some way. They - like the rest of us - are merely ding a (very well-paid) job.

"Blinkers" infers someone who is letting the world pass them by, in the hope that the problems directly affecting them will go away. Like yourself.

Were RTE "bitter" in reporting the same?

you've said it all in a nut shell, unfortunately there are plently of people who either dont understand this or belive their positions too important to be affected financially.

micropig

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Ok, this ,for me,sums up people who really don't have a clue about teaching. Infant classes are the most important for any child,it is here the foundations for life-long learning are laid.Ever heard of early intervention?Aistear etc???

Yes but other countries call this kindergarden /pre school etc;) and do the same thing

bamboozle

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

* once more for those not paying atention*
The allowances etc are being cut for new teachers.
53,000 is top of the scale for those with over 25 years worked-before any deductions.

This is screwing younger teachers, plain and simple.

As to payment by results,I am a learning support teacher, if I were to be paid by results, do you suggest that I would only take the children above sten 3 and let the children with difficulties go swing?

People seem to think that they know all about education because they were once at school .I go to the dentist but that doesn't mean I am qualified to do her job.

honestly, if young teachers are not happy with these pay rates they are not being forced by gun point into teaching. they could choose a different career path or perhaps they could get a teaching job in the UK, the land of milk and honey for teachers where they're paid much much more than here and have much longer holidays...oh wait...

wake up we're broke!!!!!

token101

Feeona wrote: »

You two must be having a field day with the anti public sector sentiment in this thread.

Jealousy will get you nowhere lads.

It's not jealousy. It's called fairness and realism. Why should teachers, paid by the public purse, get 33k starting salaries while the rest of us on starting on 10k less get taxed more to pay for it? If you get 33k in an entirely privately funded school, fair play and best wishes. Until then you can f**k off. Simples

micropig

bamboozle wrote: »

honestly, if young teachers are not happy with these pay rates they are not being forced by gun point into teaching. they could choose a different career path or perhaps they could get a teaching job in the UK, the land of milk and honey for teachers where they're paid much much more than here and have much longer holidays...oh wait...

wake up we're broke!!!!!

UK is crying out for teachers at the moment but not a viable option for Irish teachers, Unfortunately-They'd have to work until the end of July and start the next term in September. They'd all have heart attacks if they didn't get the holliers don't ya know?

MysticalRain

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

* once more for those not paying atention*
The allowances etc are being cut for new teachers.
53,000 is top of the scale for those with over 25 years worked-before any deductions.

This is screwing younger teachers, plain and simple.

As to payment by results,I am a learning support teacher, if I were to be paid by results, do you suggest that I would only take the children above sten 3 and let the children with difficulties go swing?

People seem to think that they know all about education because they were once at school .I go to the dentist but that doesn't mean I am qualified to do her job.

You can blame the unions for protecting the older fatcats vs the the younger workers.

I don't don't know much about dentistry either. But that doesn't mean I don't have the right to complain about the service, especially when I'm the one footing the bill.

chosen1

micropig wrote: »

Why would you do this, can pupils with SEN not show progress and achieve

Students showing progress and achievement is not about all students getting A1's

Get a base line of each students knowledge and same at the
end of year = shows what the student has learned and retained

If a D average student improves to be obtain C, surely this shows the student is learning?

In theory this seems like a great idea but in reality it's a whole lot different.

Think about it, if a teacher has one or two lazy kids that need to get a certain grade before his salary increases, he will end up doing assignments or project work for that kid. Very few would sit back and let them fail.

What sort of lesson does this give people in life? That if you sit back and do **** all, someone else will always bail you out. This already happens in England and if you don't believe it, ask some teachers who have taught over there for their opinion.

In relation to one of your earlier posts on there being no discipline issues if the lesson is properly planned, are you actually a teacher?

micropig

chosen1 wrote: »

In theory this seems like a great idea but in reality it's a whole lot different.

Think about it, if a teacher has one or two lazy kids that need to get a certain grade before his salary increases, he will end up doing assignments or project work for that kid. Very few would sit back and let them fail.

What sort of lesson does this give people in life? That if you sit back and do **** all, someone else will always bail you out. This already happens in England and if you don't believe it, ask some teachers who have taught over there for their opinion.

In relation to one of your earlier posts on there being no discipline issues if the lesson is properly planned, are you actually a teacher?

Teachers doing the work for their kids, why would they do this. If the simply won't participate in the class, an alternative form of education should be provided (vocational etc). Why would the teacher cover up that the student of failing? To increase their salary instead of addressing the students needs.

What does this teach people. Cover up failings to increase your salary?

Why aren't the unions shouting about providing alternative forms of education for these kids and other forms of assessment rather than the current ones. Are the teachers campaigning to provide alternative courses of education for these children more suitable for them? Can you provide links because its rarely highlighted in the media

Link to another poster comparing teaching in the UK to Ireland

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=76687411&postcount=4

Didn't click the link?
Teachers have a greater work load and are held accountable for their teaching in the UK

Oh and no matter how much money they pay teachers it will never make more time in the day or sort out behaviour issues

chosen1

micropig wrote: »

Teachers doing the work for their kids, why would they do this. If the simply won't participate in the class, an alternative form of education should be provided (vocational etc). Why would the teacher cover up that the student of failing? To increase their salary instead of addressing the students needs.

What does this teach people. Cover up failings to increase your salary?

Why aren't the unions shouting about providing alternative forms of education for these kids and other forms of assessment rather than the current ones. Are the teachers campaigning to provide alternative courses of education for these children more suitable for them? Can you provide links because its rarely highlighted in the media

Link to another poster comparing teaching in the UK to Ireland

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=76687411&postcount=4

Didn't click the link?
Teachers have a greater work load and are held accountable for their teaching in the UK

Oh and no matter how much money they pay teachers it will never make more time in the day or sort out behaviour issues

I'm afraid it's human nature that you will take shortcuts to not be seen as underachieving. An awful lot of them are doing just that over there and that's coming from an assistant head in a so called good school.

Again, about the comment on no discipline issues if the lesson is well planned; do you teach yourself?
I've seen manys a new teacher with only experience of teaching practice in a nice school express similar sentiments about behavior in class, having a sharp comedown when they have to deal with less than ideal kids and their parents who don't give a damn. Unfortunately it can be a tough job despite the best of efforts.

byhookorbycrook

micropig wrote: »

Why would you do this, can pupils with SEN not show progress and achieve

Students showing progress and achievement is not about all students getting A1's

Get a base line of each students knowledge and same at the
end of year = shows what the student has learned and retained

If a D average student improves to be obtain C, surely this shows the student is learning?

Primary schools do not give A/B/C grades. How do you define progress?Who sets the baseline for each individual?
I see progress with all my students, but I do not want to be teaching to some pre-set standard set by god knows who?Learning support is supposed to be helping a child, not teaching to a test.
What about the exceptionally able children-who according to the DES are not even considered for support- unless they are 2E and get the holy grail of resource hours?
What about children attending for motor skills, social skills, anger management???
What of those children with very little English whose EAL teachers have been pulled??

oppenheimer1

Fear_an_tarbh wrote: »

Great idea!, lets put my 3 students with Asperger's and 5 with MGLD (Mild General Learning Disabilities) as well as the few with dyslexia, dyspraxia into a special institution (just like the good old days) and concentrate on those students who do well on written standardised tests.
And we should just expel those (I have 3 or 4) who come from abusive alcoholic backgrounds, get no support at home and have no chance of matching the results of those who come from stable leafy suburb backgrounds.
Whoever thought that education should be inclusive was crazy, this will work far better and we'll save so much money in disadvantaged areas!
:rolleyes:

Fair performance assessment of teachers is relatively easy, you just have to get the scale on what you judge them right.

My method would judge at the year in the school level. The average mark across all subjects would be the baseline. Teachers whoose classes scored above the average mark would be deemed good, while those that scored below would be poor. Streaming of students would be prohibited of course.

This method would have worked perfectly in my school, where we had mixed ability classes. Everyone did relatively ok in the exams, apart from a good number that studied geography... where the marks were very poor. I'll let you guess why.

This method would not disadvantage teachers that teach in deprived areas.

micropig

My conclusion on this is issue is that the high wages teachers have been entitled to in the last few years has only attracted people to the profession for the money and not people who have a genuine interest in children and the greater good of society.

I think by lowering the wages, people only with a genuine interest in educating children will be attracted to the profession and this is very good for society in the long run.

I would rather my children be educated by people who have a genuine interest in their education, that by people who live in delusion that they are some superior, shout WE HAVE THE BEST EDUCATION SYSTEM IN THE WORLD, when facts and figures clearly show otherwise.

We have a failing educated system and teachers who are motivated by wages. Their lack of motivation and innovation suggested by educated teachers to improve their situation is astonishing and no attempts to improve are evident other than increase wages.

This has been unions stance on issues over the last few years and I for one am frankly sick of it:


Children go to school in prefabs..........................we're a little bit outraged
Class sizes too high..........................................We're a little bit outraged
Crap equipment in the school...we're a little bit outraged
Bad structure of hierarchy within the schools and government and the issues preventing managing behaviour within schools.......we're a little bit outraged

2006 78% of the education budget being spent on teachers wages............................................................We're great, we've an above average job and we're entitled to handsome salaries.

Ireland's' education system is failing badly and our standard of education is worse than other countries.................................SHHHHHhh , Everybody keep repeating that it is one of the best and provide no facts or figures to prove otherwise (the public won't realise this if we shout it loud enough)

The government want to reduce teachers handsome salaries.........................................................OH MY GOD I'M OUTRAGED. I'M GOING ON STRIKE. THIS IS ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS. I WOULDN'T GET OUT OF BED, SURE IT'S NOT MUCH MORE THAN THEN DOLE. I NEED 3 MONTHS OF THE YEAR TO OFF. I AM ENTITLED TO EVERYTHING. *ALL OUTSIDE LEINSTER HOUSE WITH PLACARDS.

And yes I do believe the unions are representing the views of the teachers. Otherwise stop paying your union fees and start up a union that does represent the majority of teachers views.

If there was justification for the salaries teachers are receiving I would have some sympathy. I've ended up doing a bit of research on this issue (thanks boardsies) and I am stronger than ever in favour of these cuts. I have emailed the Minister of education
MINISTER@education.gov.ie to congratulate him on this move and suggested other ways cuts could be made, Thank you to everyone for motivating me to have a look at the facts and figures and to any one who disputes my claims please provide linksto back up your facts. The deafening silence on the providing of links worries me that I may be right.


It is a mistake to think everyone in average jobs are naive. Sometimes an outside perspective is needed and a reality check










Carry on Ireland,

Keep sweeping your problems under the carpets

micropig

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Primary schools do not give A/B/C grades. How do you define progress?Who sets the baseline for each individual?
I see progress with all my students, but I do not want to be teaching to some pre-set standard set by god knows who?Learning support is supposed to be helping a child, not teaching to a test.
What about the exceptionally able children-who according to the DES are not even considered for support- unless they are 2E and get the holy grail of resource hours?
What about children attending for motor skills, social skills, anger management???
What of those children with very little English whose EAL teachers have been pulled??

Each student set their own baseline

Student making progress =student knows more about subject after lesson than before, meeting the objectives of the lesson

Each student sets their own base line
Why pre-set standard?

Why national average etc?

Just out of interest do you share the objectives of the lesson with the children at the start of each lesson?

gurramok

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

What of those children with very little English whose EAL teachers have been pulled??

What about them? Tough.

Their parents should pay for language lessons for them in their own time, not the taxpayer.

oppenheimer1

I have to say that the government could be playing the long game with the unions. Would you bother to join a union who sold you out to save the existing membership before you even joined? 4% of teachers approx are retiring at the end of the month... not an insignificant number

The government may inadvertently and eventually break the union stranglehold.

Freddie59

gurramok wrote: »

What about them? Tough.

Their parents should pay for language lessons for them in their own time, not the taxpayer.

Indeed. Well said.

Freddie59

I suppose all of this begs the question: where are the teachers who joined the profession to, well, teach?

micropig

Freddie59 wrote: »

I suppose all of this begs the question: where are the teachers who joined the profession to, well, teach?

Posting thier distriss at what has become of the Irish Education on Boards.ie:mad::p:D

gurramok

Freddie59 wrote: »

I suppose all of this begs the question: where are the teachers who joined the profession to, well, teach?

In bed, they are up early for class. Expect a few posts around brekkie time in the morn :pac:

Mardy Bum

Freddie59 wrote: »

I suppose all of this begs the question: where are the teachers who joined the profession to, well, teach?

micropig wrote: »

Posting thier distriss at what has become of the Irish Education on Boards.ie:mad::p:D

gurramok wrote: »

In bed, they are up early for class. Expect a few posts around brekkie time in the morn :pac:

Keep the circle jerk going lads fair play on your staying power.

byhookorbycrook

micropig wrote: »

Each student set their own baseline

Student making progress =student knows more about subject after lesson than before, meeting the objectives of the lesson

Each student sets their own base line
Why pre-set standard?

Why national average etc?

Just out of interest do you share the objectives of the lesson with the children at the start of each lesson?

Yes, I do share the objective with my children, learning support children tend to need clear goals that they feel they can achieve. As to setting their own baseline, senior infants wouldn't be the best placed to do S.M.A.R.T. targets for themselves,which is why I write the IPLPs!!

tayto lover

micropig wrote: »

Posting thier distriss at what has become of the Irish Education on Boards.ie:mad::p:D

Maybe they are teaching spelling.

Barely Hedged

micropig wrote: »

My conclusion on this is issue is that the high wages teachers have been entitled to in the last few years has only attracted people to the profession for the money and not people who have a genuine interest in children and the greater good of society.

I think by lowering the wages, people only with a genuine interest in educating children will be attracted to the profession and this is very good for society in the long run.

I would rather my children be educated by people who have a genuine interest in their education, that by people who live in delusion that they are some superior, shout WE HAVE THE BEST EDUCATION SYSTEM IN THE WORLD, when facts and figures clearly show otherwise.

We have a failing educated system and teachers who are motivated by wages. Their lack of motivation and innovation suggested by educated teachers to improve their situation is astonishing and no attempts to improve are evident other than increase wages.

This has been unions stance on issues over the last few years and I for one am frankly sick of it:


Children go to school in prefabs..........................we're a little bit outraged
Class sizes too high..........................................We're a little bit outraged
Crap equipment in the school...we're a little bit outraged
Bad structure of hierarchy within the schools and government and the issues preventing managing behaviour within schools.......we're a little bit outraged

2006 78% of the education budget being spent on teachers wages............................................................We're great, we've an above average job and we're entitled to handsome salaries.

Ireland's' education system is failing badly and our standard of education is worse than other countries.................................SHHHHHhh , Everybody keep repeating that it is one of the best and provide no facts or figures to prove otherwise (the public won't realise this if we shout it loud enough)

The government want to reduce teachers handsome salaries.........................................................OH MY GOD I'M OUTRAGED. I'M GOING ON STRIKE. THIS IS ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS. I WOULDN'T GET OUT OF BED, SURE IT'S NOT MUCH MORE THAN THEN DOLE. I NEED 3 MONTHS OF THE YEAR TO OFF. I AM ENTITLED TO EVERYTHING. *ALL OUTSIDE LEINSTER HOUSE WITH PLACARDS.

And yes I do believe the unions are representing the views of the teachers. Otherwise stop paying your union fees and start up a union that does represent the majority of teachers views.

If there was justification for the salaries teachers are receiving I would have some sympathy. I've ended up doing a bit of research on this issue (thanks boardsies) and I am stronger than ever in favour of these cuts. I have emailed the Minister of education
MINISTER@education.gov.ie to congratulate him on this move and suggested other ways cuts could be made, Thank you to everyone for motivating me to have a look at the facts and figures and to any one who disputes my claims please provide linksto back up your facts. The deafening silence on the providing of links worries me that I may be right.


It is a mistake to think everyone in average jobs are naive. Sometimes an outside perspective is needed and a reality check










Carry on Ireland,

Keep sweeping your problems under the carpets

Well said!

Boulevardier

I think these posts on teachers' pay and conditions have begun to border on the abusive.

If your own pay and conditions are not good, then join a union and fight to improve them. Bringing the teachers "down to earth" will not help you one whit.

Seachmall

Boulevardier wrote: »

If your own pay and conditions are not good, then join a union and fight to improve them. Bringing the teachers "down to earth" will not help you one whit.

It's got nothing to do with the pay of private sectors employees. Joining unions and getting pay increases for ourselves will do nothing to address the issues being discussed.

Boulevardier

Yes it will. It will take your mind off teachers' pay and conditions and put it onto your own.

Micropig's idea that lowering pay would get better teachers is beneath contempt. Teachers are no more or less mercenary than anyone else, and that is as it should be.

Seachmall

Boulevardier wrote: »

Yes it will. It will take your mind off teachers' pay and conditions and put it onto your own.

I think you're simply dismissing all issues being raised as spite.

They're not. All wages payed by the tax payer are open to debate and rightfully so. This thread is specifically about teachers and so it's teachers' wages being discussed.

If you find that offensive perhaps you should refrain from clicking on the thread in future.

micropig

Ministers Reply for anyone's who's interested



PLEASE QUOTE REF NUMBER ON ALL CORRESPONDENCE
Our Ref:

Dear

Thank you for your recent email to the Minister for Education and Skills, Mr. Ruairi Ryan T.D. in relation to teachers salaries.

The Government announced as part of Budget 2012 that, pending completion of the public service-wide review of allowances, changes to teacher qualification allowances were being made with immediate effect. These changes will affect both existing teachers and new appointees in future.

This decision was taken due to the upward pressure on the cost of teacher allowances. Without any changes, the cost of qualification allowances are expected to result in an additional €150 million increase in the cost of teacher salaries by 2020.

To put this in context, the other reductions in education expenditure announced in Budget 2012 amount to €76 million. Without immediate action, this upward pressure would have cancelled out the savings made elsewhere in the education system and would bring about even harsher adjustments to schools and services.
This measure does not affect allowances currently being paid to existing teachers. However, those teachers will not be paid any additional allowance if they acquire any further qualification. The position of teachers who, on 5 December 2011, were undertaking courses will be considered in the context of the public service-wide review of allowances announced in Budget 2012 which is to be led by the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform.

Any teacher being employed for the first time in a recognised school will not be able to obtain an allowance at a level greater than that applying to those who hold an honours degree. This means that qualifications at Masters or Doctorate level will not be paid, and those who hold a H.Dip will not be permitted through any combination of allowances to exceed the level of allowance payable in respect of an honours degree. Where a teacher on first appointment is eligible for payment of an allowance below that equivalent to honours degree level he or she will, in common with existing teachers, not be paid any additional allowance should he or she acquire a further qualification.

I hope this is of assistance to you.

Yours sincerely


Private Secretary

Barely Hedged

micropig wrote: »

Ministers Reply for anyone's who's interested



PLEASE QUOTE REF NUMBER ON ALL CORRESPONDENCE
Our Ref:

Dear

Thank you for your recent email to the Minister for Education and Skills, Mr. Ruairi Ryan T.D. in relation to teachers salaries.

The Government announced as part of Budget 2012 that, pending completion of the public service-wide review of allowances, changes to teacher qualification allowances were being made with immediate effect. These changes will affect both existing teachers and new appointees in future.

This decision was taken due to the upward pressure on the cost of teacher allowances. Without any changes, the cost of qualification allowances are expected to result in an additional €150 million increase in the cost of teacher salaries by 2020.

To put this in context, the other reductions in education expenditure announced in Budget 2012 amount to €76 million. Without immediate action, this upward pressure would have cancelled out the savings made elsewhere in the education system and would bring about even harsher adjustments to schools and services.
This measure does not affect allowances currently being paid to existing teachers. However, those teachers will not be paid any additional allowance if they acquire any further qualification. The position of teachers who, on 5 December 2011, were undertaking courses will be considered in the context of the public service-wide review of allowances announced in Budget 2012 which is to be led by the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform.

Any teacher being employed for the first time in a recognised school will not be able to obtain an allowance at a level greater than that applying to those who hold an honours degree. This means that qualifications at Masters or Doctorate level will not be paid, and those who hold a H.Dip will not be permitted through any combination of allowances to exceed the level of allowance payable in respect of an honours degree. Where a teacher on first appointment is eligible for payment of an allowance below that equivalent to honours degree level he or she will, in common with existing teachers, not be paid any additional allowance should he or she acquire a further qualification.

I hope this is of assistance to you.

Yours sincerely


Private Secretary

Well that's it tied off in a nice neat bundle. You simply can't argue with the reasoning given in that response.

Thanks Micropig for pursuing that like you did and adding definitive clarity to this bull**** crusade of the unions and some delusional teachers.

Benicetomonty

May I presume, micropig, from your most recent posts on the education forum that you're a teacher yourself? Working in England it seems. If you believe we have it so easy over here, why couldn't you get a job in Ireland?

Regardless, it seems like the English system has wooed you into believing it is the model of a perfect education system. Too bad your colleagues don't feel the same...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2009/aug/14/newly-qualified-teachers-droppingout
Now granted 2009 isn't yesterday but it ain't a million years ago either. Isn't it interesting how even before I finished my PGDE, we had recruitment companies in looking for us to teach in British schools? Why? Because they can't even get their own graduates to do it :pac:

"Only 63% were working (after graduating) in state schools six months later"

This is a disgraceful figure and shows why any attempt by Ireland to try and replicate the English system would be an absolute disaster.

Alan Smithers, co-author of the report, said: "Teacher trainees in crucial subjects seem underqualified, and the training process seems very wasteful.

Explains why they want Irish graduates I guess...

Nansi Ellis, the head of education policy at the Association of Teachers and Lecturers, said: "Although it is a waste of money and of talent to train teachers who do not end up in the classroom there are many valid reasons why trainees do not become teachers, or why others drop out. Difficult pupil behaviour, government micro-management and bureaucracy, numerous curriculum changes, and exam league tables all put huge pressures on new teachers."

And yet you maintain these are made-up problems for incompetent teachers. Sadly, no.

Michael Gove, the shadow children's secretary, said: "All the evidence is that nothing affects a child's life chances more than the quality of teaching he or she receives. That is why it's vital that we do everything that we can to get highly qualified professionals into the classroom."

If you really believe a good salary plays no part in attracting the best people for the job in a European country, I'd seriously question your naivity.

micropig

Any constructive feedback from anyone on ways to improve the Irish Education system?

Any other suggestions on ways to reduce the ratio of the education budget that is spent on teachers salaries?

Benicetomonty

micropig wrote: »

Any constructive feedback from anyone on ways to improve the Irish Education system?

Sure! Start off with equal salaries for equal work done. Then figure out a way to assess teachers that does not involve the ridiculously over-suggested payment by results system. Then we might get somewhere

Seachmall

Benicetomonty wrote: »

Sure! Start off with equal salaries for equal work done.

But it's unfair and unrealistic to pay a teacher who is good at what they do the same as a teacher who is ineffective.

I would be a terrible teacher for example. I'd imagine maybe only 10% of my class of average students would pass their exams. I've an inherited inability to explain even the simplest concepts in a clear and concise manner.

However I have had many great teachers who without I would not have gotten into college. These teachers have had exceptional results when it comes to the grades of their students.

Now I'd like to think I could qualify as a teacher in a subject I'm interested in. Maybe just about pass but pass none-the-less.

I would under no circumstance feel it fair to the other teachers that I earn the same wage despite my inability to teach. I would try my hardest no doubt but it's something that I, at no fault of my own, would not be capable of in an effective manner. I might put in double the hours of the objectively better teachers but my effort alone will not improve standards of education. Not only would a level wage be unfair to the other teachers but it would be unfair to new teachers graduating, the students and the tax payer.

I might have the same title, even the same experience, as the better teachers but not the same abilities or results. Not all teachers are made equal, nor should they be paid equal regardless.

To me it's obvious and common sense. If you disagree then that's your opinion and I'm not going to argue it with you.

micropig

Seachmall wrote: »

But it's unfair and unrealistic to pay a teacher who is good at what they do the same as a teacher who is ineffective.

I would be a terrible teacher for example. I'd imagine maybe only 10% of my class of average students would pass their exams. I've an inherited inability to explain even the simplest concepts in a clear and concise manner.

However I have had many great teachers who without I would not have gotten into college. These teachers have had exceptional results when it comes to the grades of their students.

Now I'd like to think I could qualify as a teacher in a subject I'm interested in. Maybe just about pass but pass none-the-less.

I would under no circumstance feel it fair to the other teachers that I earn the same wage despite my inability to teach. I would try my hardest no doubt but it's something that I, at no fault of my own, would not be capable of in an effective manner. I might put in double the hours of the objectively better teachers but my effort alone will not improve standards of education. Not only would a level wage be unfair to the other teachers but it would be unfair to new teachers graduating, the students and the tax payer.

I might have the same title, even the same experience, as the better teachers but not the same abilities or results. Not all teachers are made equal, nor should they be paid equal regardless.

Instead of the teacher trying to explain a concept to students, how about a system where the teacher sets up activities for the student to investigate the situation and reach a conclusion themselves or with peers (group work etc)

Pros
Active learning.
Students have to engage
Peer pressure -If one or two in the group are doing everything they will nag the others to do their share
Retain more of the information than when just told, reading in a book
????

Cons
Some students may just let their peers do the work. Needs to be monitored closely by teacher and students need to be trained how to work within a group (a point a leader, regular feedback), all teacher has to do is monitor and manage behaviour once class is in session
????



Of course for anything to work properly, the system has to be invested in.

Money for change
Reduce the ratio of the education budget spent on teachers salaries and invest it in schools & Equipment

Seachmall

micropig wrote: »

Instead of the teacher trying to explain a concept to students, how about a system where the teacher sets up activities for the student to investigate the situation and reach a conclusion themselves & friends

Active learning.
Students have to engage
Retain more of the information than when just told, reading in a book

In some subjects that works very well. Woodworking and Computers (mainly programming) are the two examples that come to mind for me. But both of those, while have a lot of theory behind them, can only be learned through practice.

Subjects like Physics and other abstract topics are almost the complete opposite. They are almost entirely theoretical subjects, not only that but they're extremely complex (or at least some aspects of them are). They require, without a doubt, someone with the ability to simplify even the most complicated of subjects. Some people are simply not capable of teaching those subjects. They might understand them to the nth degree but you have to be able to explain them too.

Teaching is complicated in that manner, it requires a specific type of person to be able to do it correctly and paying people who don't fit those requirements simply because they have their qualifications is unfair to everybody else involved. Even if they must be hired due to the number of students (as they're better than nothing) paying them the same amount as someone who is great a teaching isn't wrong in my opinion.

It's difficult to recommend not hiring someone because, essentially, of who they are but it needs to be done because it's not a trivial issue.

micropig

Seachmall wrote: »

In some subjects that works very well. Woodworking and Computers (mainly programming) are the two examples that come to mind for me. But both of those, while have a lot of theory behind them, can only be learned through practice.

Subjects like Physics and other abstract topics are almost the complete opposite. They are almost entirely theoretical subjects, not only that but they're extremely complex (or at least some aspects of them are). They require, without a doubt, someone with the ability to simplify even the most complicated of subjects. Some people are simply not capable of teaching those subjects. They might understand them to the nth degree but you have to be able to explain them too.

Teaching is complicated in that manner, it requires a specific type of person to be able to do it correctly and paying people who don't fit those requirements simply because they have their qualifications is unfair to everybody else involved. Even if they must be hired due to the number of students (as they're better than nothing) paying them the same amount as someone who is great a teaching isn't wrong in my opinion.

It's difficult to recommend not hiring someone because, essentially, of who they are but it needs to be done because it's not a trivial issue.

Make the abstract concept more real ie act out how particles behave in solutions etc.
This is only one example but don't have the time at the moment. In the mean time would a teacher like to post up a lesson plan so it can be seen what types of activities the students are doing to learn a concept and how their time is being spent in the classroom, for example forces in physics/bar charts etc. If an Irish Teacher put's one of these up I will put one up when I'm home later and I will be open to all feedback and critique on how it could be improved

Edit: Students choose most subjects they want to do at junior why are they not choosing subjects they are interested in?

Hobbes

Barely Hedged wrote: »

How?

Less spent on education means less resources for children, which in turn means less people a few years down the line able to compete with others who do have the money.

micropig

Hobbes wrote: »

Less spent on education means less resources for children, which in turn means less people a few years down the line able to compete with others who do have the money.

Not less spent on education.
Less of the education budget spent on teacher wages, more of it spent on facilities
Same amount of money in the pot

Paulzx

micropig wrote: »

I think by lowering the wages, people only with a genuine interest in educating children will be attracted to the profession and this is very good for society in the long run.
.

u ]

Ok, so lets bring your "theory" to alogical conclusion.

Wages for teachers should be lowered so that we will only attract motivated, interested people into the profession?

Lower wages for stockbrockers and we'll only have people who really want to be stockbrockers

Lower wages for accountants and we'll only have people who reallywant to be accountants.

Lower wages for brain surgeons and we'll only have people who really want to be brain surgeons

Lower wages for waitresses and we'll only have people who really want to be waitresses

Lower wages for sewer workers and we'll only have people who really want to be sewer workers.

See where this is going?

stupid. Isn't it?

gigino

Paulzx wrote: »

Ok, so lets bring your "theory" to alogical conclusion.

Wages for teachers should be lowered so that we will only attract motivated, interested people into the profession?

Lower wages for stockbrockers and we'll only have people who really want to be stockbrockers

Lower wages for accountants and we'll only have people who reallywant to be accountants.

Lower wages for brain surgeons and we'll only have people who really want to be brain surgeons

Lower wages for waitresses and we'll only have people who really want to be waitresses

Lower wages for sewer workers and we'll only have people who really want to be sewer workers.

See where this is going?

stupid. Isn't it?

And you think the current situation our average public service pay being 48k is not stupid ? ( to put it it context, average public sector pay in the UK, our nearest neighbour, one we share a land border with and one of the countries bailing us out is only 21.5k stg a year )

Where To

Paulzx wrote: »

Ok, so lets bring your "theory" to alogical conclusion.

Wages for teachers should be lowered so that we will only attract motivated, interested people into the profession?

Lower wages for stockbrockers and we'll only have people who really want to be stockbrockers

Lower wages for accountants and we'll only have people who reallywant to be accountants.

Lower wages for brain surgeons and we'll only have people who really want to be brain surgeons

Lower wages for waitresses and we'll only have people who really want to be waitresses

Lower wages for sewer workers and we'll only have people who really want to be sewer workers.

See where this is going?

stupid. Isn't it?

I don't know about you but I would rather have my brain operated on by someone with a genuine interest in neurosurgery than someone whose only motivation is greed.

But then again I am stupid.:)

tails_naf

Southeast1 wrote: »

The effect of these cuts on new teachers which ultimately will affect the quality of education in Irish schools for years to come.

Some of the best years in terms of pay increases for teachers and funding for schools has actually given us a worse education system - we've fallen way down the european league tables - so I don't necessarily believe more money=better education. Pay for performance usually works though.

Wild_Dogger

mikemac1 wrote: »

You seem surprised OP, unions are there to lobby for their members

If they just accepted cuts and said nothing they'd be a pretty useless union

Unions used to be there to stand for what is 'right' .

Now they are just greedy agents.

More pay for public sector = less money for services.

Public sector want more in their pocket , the general public want more services .

Finding a fair and equal balance is the only answer .