Unions Demand Return Of Teachers Allowances

micropig

The internet is a vast source of information (more than any human can retain),

Buy the children computers, teach them how to research properly and be safe on the internet

This will give them skills for life

CageWager

To increase the standard of teaching could we not, instead of cutting wages, increase the level of education necessary to become a teacher? Make it compulsory for all teachers to have a masters in their chosen subject(s) and put everyone on the exact same pay scale.

Equal pay for all teachers, higher standard of education for teachers across the board.

Students win, Teachers win, Taxpayers win.

micropig

CageWager wrote: »

To increase the standard of teaching could we not, instead of cutting wages, increase the level of education necessary to become a teacher? Make it compulsory for all teachers to have a masters in their chosen subject(s) and put everyone on the exact same pay scale.

Equal pay for all teachers, higher standard of education for teachers across the board.

Students win, Teachers win, Taxpayers win.

Why? How would this improve their standard of teaching? Would it make students more interested in learning the subject? All students should have access to the internet in the schools and a sufficient number of computers. They won't have the teacher beside them when they're 25 and need to know something. They will have access to the internet though.

I think we need to move away from this idea that teachers are the only beholders of information, they're are many other sources. Teaching children the skills to carry out the research themselves is more beneficial in my opinion.

A good personality, a sense of humour and being able to relate and communicate to the children is also very important. Someone the children will listen to & respect. No point in having a teacher that knows everything when the children aren't listening.



*Not advocating internet should only be used but it is an under utilized resource in school system and can be used beneficially to support learning

CageWager

micropig wrote: »

Why? all students should have access to the internet in the schools and a sufficient number of computers. They won't have the teacher beside them when they're 25 and need to know something. They will have access to the internet though.

The world has moved on...

Theres a lot more to education that whats in the books and what goes down on the exam paper.

The result of a great education is not how many facts you know, as you say yourself, you can google anything you want. A great education instills confidance, good decision making, sound logical thought, rational enquiry etc, so when we are 25 we can make good choices for ourselves. To dismiss the benefit of teachers with the "a sure kids have the internet these days" attitude is pretty ridiculous.

I know kids who cant add 2 plus 2 because they have been using calculators their whole lives. Technology is great, dont get me wrong, but there are some things that we have to be able to do for ourselves. IMO its an incredibly lazy approach to teaching to expect a computer to do the work for you.

I'll never be asked to quote a sonnet or prove a theorem in my day to day life, but the struggle I went through to learn those things as a 16/17 year old left me with an ability to work hard, figure things out and apply them to a real life (exam) situation. I have in turn applied this same mentality to far more complex situations in my adult working life.

So in reality, what I learned wasnt just words or numbers on a page, it was a method for acquiring and applying information to a given situation. You cant just plonk kids in front of the internet for 5 hours a day and expect them to come up with that themselves as part of your "active learning".

LETHAL LADY

I am so angry now I could explode.....................boooooooooooom..............

micropig

CageWager wrote: »

There's a lot more to education that whats in the books and what goes down on the exam paper.

The result of a great education is not how many facts you know, as you say yourself, you can google anything you want. A great education instills confidance, good decision making, sound logical thought, rational enquiry etc, so when we are 25 we can make good choices for ourselves. To dismiss the benefit of teachers with the "a sure kids have the internet these days" attitude is pretty ridiculous.

I know kids who cant add 2 plus 2 because they have been using calculators their whole lives. Technology is great, dont get me wrong, but there are some things that we have to be able to do for ourselves. IMO its an incredibly lazy approach to teaching to expect a computer to do the work for you.

I'll never be asked to quote a sonnet or prove a theorem in my day to day life, but the struggle I went through to learn those things as a 16/17 year old left me with an ability to work hard, figure things out and apply them to a real life (exam) situation. I have in turn applied this same mentality to far more complex situations in my adult working life.

So in reality, what I learned wasnt just words or numbers on a page, it was a method for acquiring and applying information to a given situation. You cant just plonk kids in front of the internet for 5 hours a day and expect them to come up with that themselves as part of your "active learning".

Sorry we were both posting at the same time, because I was editing I think I might have already covered some of the points in the edited post above

The ones I feel I haven't already addressed I will do so below

I'm not dismissing the value teachers have, In fact I agree with everything you have said there about what a good education system should be, well put. I am not dismissing the role of teachers. I do value their contribution in the classroom, but I am questioning whether the education system in Ireland is providing a great education instills confidance, good decision making, sound logical thought, rational enquiry etc?

You may never have been asked to quote a sonnet but have you every got an interest in something /being studying a course and researched it on the internet? Ever taken out your phone to use it as a calculator? Technology has become more common place and I don't see it disappearing any time soon. Not suggesting we educate morons either, but we are probably training them for jobs that haven't been invented yet, So we need to really examine what skills we are teaching them.

"Work hard, figure things out and apply them" - Is the approach we are taking to teaching the children these things the right/best one? Most stuff children have to learn at the moment off by heart is useless information, that can easily be sourced on the spot in this day of iphones

"You cant just plonk kids in front of the internet for 5 hours a day and expect them to come up with that themselves as part of your "active learning"

I don't expect them to be plonked in front of computer 5 hours a day.It can be used to support other teaching strategies & it can be used in a lot more ways that just sitting in front of it.

For example:
research topic on computer- give your feedback to the class/act it out etc & any one can ask you questions on it. Here's guidelines on the type of information you should be looking for. (students learning:IT, research & independent learning skills, presentation & communication skills, student has to justify their answers to their peers, builds confidence. Teacher: give task & monitor students are on task, tackle off task behaviour, guide pupils, interject with question if student is making error and get student to figure out for themselves whats wrong)

You tube- invaluable resource for educational videos & songs that can be used (I've heard students humming educational songs, if the tune is catchy enough)

Various other interactive revision quizzes and games which can be used
Students make educational videos etc

The above are just some ways the internet/computers can be integrated in to lessons, there are many more..


Not suggesting at all teachers only use the internet. If fact, I don't think students should be left on the same task for longer than 15 min approx and its up to the teacher to keep the pace of the class moving. Teacher needs to be skilled enough at the first sign of disruptive behaviour to reassess what is going on in the classroom and alter tasks, change tasks, manage the classroom as required. 2 or 3 different tasks can be used to teach the same topic etc.


Children get bored easily these days. We need to something to catch their attention and engage more of them in learning at school- I don't think the approach we are taking is the right one.

Can anyone please suggest other ways to improve the education system? I'm not suggesting my way is the right way, what I am suggesting the way we are doing it is wrong.

CageWager wrote: »

There's a lot more to education that whats in the books and what goes down on the exam paper

there certainly is, I think our current system is geared too much towards the books & what hoes down on paper
I have given some solutions to help teachers decrease their workload and improve their working conditions.

How would you go about;
A)tackling the behaviour issues in our schools?
B)Improving students attainment levels?
C)Improving working conditions for teachers (decrease time spent planning, correcting etc)?
D) Improving resources, equipment & buildings in schools?
E) Get students interested in learning?

tails_naf

micropig wrote: »

How would you go about;
A)tackling the behaviour issues in our schools?
B)Improving students attainment levels?
E) Get students interested in learning?

Well, one thing we have done over the past few years was follow the american model - i.e. it's almost the case where the school backs up the 'angry parent' if a kid fails, rather than saying the kid did not work hard enough.

My wife was a teacher in the US, and she saw the system there go from bad to worse - with each new year bringing in something that was less about education and more about student empowerment / confidence building / what have you - the end result - over confident students who didn't have to try because it was almost impossible to fail.

They also started merging classes of all abilities into one - no more grading or teaching by ability - end result - smarter kids were bored, slower kids were still lost, and the kids in the middle were distracted by the bored people!!

What did we do - went following that model. When I returned to Ireland in 2008 I was shocked to see how much things had changed in education in a few years.

To fix education performance we should:
Go back to basics -
1)
If a child is failing, look around - if the whole class is failing,the maybe the teacher is to blame, it not, then it's the child. Work harder, or move to a lower class. Parents can rant and rave, but they need to take responsibility in this situation, and the teacher should be backed up by the school and the system.
2)
Stop integrating mixed abilities - at primary school level it is ok, but not at secondary.
3)
Get the basic reading/writing/maths drilled in. Expect a level of quality, and never accept poor grammar or text speak (it has ruined my brother's writing ability - he's only ten years younger than me!)
4)
In short - be a bit tougher. like pay for performance, students should only advance to the next grade/class if they perform.

I think when we had more money we employed more 'consultants' in good faith to modernize our education - just like they did in the US, and it has ruined a generation there. Hopefully the department will see the light that more money is not the solution and more common sense is what is needed.

micropig

tails_naf wrote: »

..................

To fix education performance we should:
Go back to basics -
1)
If a child is failing, look around - if the whole class is failing,the maybe the teacher is to blame, it not, then it's the child. Work harder, or move to a lower class. Parents can rant and rave, but they need to take responsibility in this situation, and the teacher should be backed up by the school and the system.
2)
Stop integrating mixed abilities - at primary school level it is ok, but not at secondary.
3)
Get the basic reading/writing/maths drilled in. Expect a level of quality, and never accept poor grammar or text speak (it has ruined my brother's writing ability - he's only ten years younger than me!)
4)
In short - be a bit tougher. like pay for performance, students should only advance to the next grade/class if they perform.

I think when we had more money we employed more 'consultants' in good faith to modernize our education - just like they did in the US, and it has ruined a generation there. Hopefully the department will see the light that more money is not the solution and more common sense is what is needed.

Some very good points raised there but for me it raises the following questions

1)How can we move towards the children taking responsibility for their own learning? Why put the full responsibility on parents/teachers, once someone else is responsible for it the student doesn't have to care (although parents & teachers do also have a valid role)


If they are failing, ask them why, what can we do to help them? (Remember not every child will be failing) and keep on their case to ensure they are meeting their targets

2) With proper investment in SNA's, there is no reason not to have mixed ability classes. A skilled teacher should be able to differentiate the lesson they are teaching so that it caters for all abilities. Also stronger students having to explain to weaker students can help develop understanding of concepts. Task made easier to suit lower abilities, with extended work for higher abilities. Not more work for higher abilities but rather questions that require more in-depth knowledge & thinking

3) Yes spelling & grammar need to be improved. Introduce literacy & numeracy across all subjects (easily in any subject, done depending on the topic). (If any one disputes, please say a topic and I'll give and example of how)

4)Yes, but how do we measure performance? What skills is it important for the child to be able to perform? Is the current leaving & junior certificate showing realistically how students are performing?

5) Agree about consultants

Muff Richardson

micropig wrote: »

The internet is a vast source of information (more than any human can retain),

Buy the children computers, teach them how to research properly and be safe on the internet

This will give them skills for life

I agree, I also think we should incorporate the use of FIFA 10 upward on the playstation 3 in place of physical education.

micropig

Muff Richardson wrote: »

I agree, I also think we should incorporate the use of FIFA 10 upward on the playstation 3 in place of physical education.

Technology can be used in many ways (computers are more than play station games). Do not agree in replacing physical education with FIFA 10-our obesity problem is also rising

Muff Richardson

micropig wrote: »

Technology can be used in many ways (computers are more than play station games). Do not agree in replacing physical education with FIFA 10-our obesity problem is also rising

oh sorry, i thought you were being serious when you said that we should buy children computers and teach them how to research safely on the internet to educate our children, presumably to replace teachers because the internet has more information than any person can retain, so i wrote something equally as dumb for the craic.

micropig

Muff Richardson wrote: »

oh sorry, i thought you were being serious when you said that we should buy children computers and teach them how to research safely on the internet to educate our children, presumably to replace teachers because the internet has more information than any person can retain, so i wrote something equally as dumb for the craic.

Read the post carefully-I did not say internet should replace teachers, but be used to support the students learning.

micropig

Are teachers afraid of letting/ teaching students to research on the internet/ technology in the classroom? Do you think it devalues your position & knowledge in the classroom? Are you afraid of teaching students how to find out information for themselves, teach them how to evaluate whether is is reliable information and is it the relevant information they are looking for?

micropig

I think if any students could post here and give us their view of what is wrong in the classroom, it would contribute another perspective to the debate.

What stops you learning in class?
What makes a class boring?
What could make it more interesting?

Of course, views from anyone is welcome but I think there would be most value in the students' answers to these questions


Edit: The amount of people who viewed the last few pages on this thread , and the lack of debate on important education issues and solutions to improve both teachers & students conditions is astounding - Do teachers have to check with the union before they can offer any contribution?

Mardy Bum

micropig wrote: »

I think if any students could post here and give us their view of what is wrong in the classroom, it would contribute another perspective to the debate.

What stops you learning in class?
What makes a class boring?
What could make it more interesting?

Of course, views from anyone is welcome but I think there would be most value in the students' answers to these questions


Edit: The amount of people who viewed the last few pages on this thread , and the lack of debate on important education issues and solutions to improve both teachers & students conditions is astounding - Do teachers have to check with the union before they can offer any contribution?

Try starting a thread in someplace more appropriate if you want a debate about such things. The OP has nothing to do with what you are talking about.

marknjb

is teaching the only job u can qualified at .be useless at and stay doing it for your working life
we dont need time servers or people with multiple masters we need people who are intrested and can TEACH

micropig

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Try starting a thread in someplace more appropriate if you want a debate about such things. The OP has nothing to do with what you are talking about.

Is it wrong to ask how teachers can justify their high wages? If the public are paying for it I think they have a right to examine the system & ask hard questions about what exactly children are learning.

marknjb wrote: »

is teaching the only job u can qualified at .be useless at and stay doing it for your working life
we dont need time servers or people with multiple masters we need people who are intrested and can TEACH

No there are many other civil service jobs were the above is applicable but THATS a whole other thread!!

Mardy Bum

micropig wrote: »

Is it wrong to ask how teachers can justify their high wages? If the public are paying for it I think they have a right to examine the system & ask hard questions about what exactly children are learning.
!

Try going to a forum i.e Education where you can find all this out and more. You just seem to have an axe to grind and are using AH as a way to get a little gratification from others who want to blame their life's woes on the teaching sector.

micropig

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Try going to a forum i.e Education where you can find all this out and more. You just seem to have an axe to grind and are using AH as a way to get a little gratification from others who want to blame their life's woes on the teaching sector.

Don't agree telling me to go away the best solution to improving teachers working conditions and the standard of education.

Any more constructive solutions to the problems?
Behaviour etc?

Improved conditions for teachers = better for teachers;)

micropig

Just thought I'd add this here for those of you who mightn't cruise over to the education form. I think it perfectly illustrates the point I've been making

2009 The Department was granted a record €841m to spend on school buildings and other capital projects this year, but €213m has yet to be spent.

2009 Teachers strike over pension levy http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0313/education.html

No mention of striking over lack of facilities

April 2011 Teachers vote against strike action on special needs cuts

November 2009 unions said they were taking action because members had never before faced such a threat to pay, pensions and terms and conditions.

HarryL

If allowances are cut then a new teacher, with a degree will start on €27814. A special needs assistant, with a Junior Cert (min qualification although many have higher), starts on €23188.
That's a difference of €4626.
I don't know how anyone could think it reasonable that a teacher, possibly with 500+ points in LC, having completed a 3(soon to be 4) year degree course, would only earn 5k approx more than someone with a JC.

Gophur

HarryL wrote: »

If allowances are cut then a new teacher, with a degree will start on €27814. A special needs assistant, with a Junior Cert (min qualification although many have higher), starts on €23188.
That's a difference of €4626.
I don't know how anyone could think it reasonable that a teacher, possibly with 500+ points in LC, having completed a 3(soon to be 4) year degree course, would only earn 5k approx more than someone with a JC.

The difference is 20% (forget about your €5k)

The top of the scale for the teacher is €53k, you will have annual increments (regardless of how good/bad you are).

Maybe you are suggesting the SNA is over-paid?

€27k for a starting salary, is not bad. Increments are GUARANTEED.


Of that €27k, your employer has to borrow approximately €10k. Do you think that's sustainable? Fair?

HarryL

Forget about your 20%. It's under €5000 of a difference. The SNA is adequately paid. The class teacher must "manage" the SNA and has total responsibility for all children in the class including the special needs children. In some classrooms now the SNA is being paid more than the teacher (SNA on the 6th increment, ie after 6 years, will be earning more than the newly qualified teacher if allowances are removed).
It takes 25 years for teachers to reach the top of the incremental scale.
There is a widespread perception that SNAs earn much less than teachers. I am just pointing out that this is not the case.

micropig

HarryL wrote: »

If allowances are cut then a new teacher, with a degree will start on €27814. A special needs assistant, with a Junior Cert (min qualification although many have higher), starts on €23188.
That's a difference of €4626.
I don't know how anyone could think it reasonable that a teacher, possibly with 500+ points in LC, having completed a 3(soon to be 4) year degree course, would only earn 5k approx more than someone with a JC.

Does having 500+ in the leaving certificate automatically make you a good communicator able to relate to children?

tiny_penguin

HarryL wrote: »

Forget about your 20%. It's under €5000 of a difference. The SNA is adequately paid. The class teacher must "manage" the SNA and has total responsibility for all children in the class including the special needs children. In some classrooms now the SNA is being paid more than the teacher (SNA on the 6th increment, ie after 6 years, will be earning more than the newly qualified teacher if allowances are removed).
It takes 25 years for teachers to reach the top of the incremental scale.
There is a widespread perception that SNAs earn much less than teachers. I am just pointing out that this is not the case.

But at the moment that could happen in any career field. I used to work with people of all educational backgrounds. A degree was not a prerequisite for all jobs on the team and there were various job titles in the team. With pay freezes it would not be unheard of for a person who had only just passed the LC but had been in the job 6 years to be earning considerably more than someone who just started and has a degree or a masters. The only difference is, this person would not be guaranteed any sort of pay increase for the forseeable future whereas teachers are guaranteed pay increases.

A starting wage of 27,000 is not a bad starting wage - considering you know this will go up.

Zooey

For those who care about the issue, please sign this petition. Note that...

a) the degree allowance is not an "allowance" because a degree is a compulsory qualification for NQTs. Our salaries are being decimated.

b) There is no "age discrimination" going on because a large proportion of the student teacher population are in their 30s and 40s!

c) Permanent jobs are a thing of the past and if lucky enough to get a job NQTs will be in temporary positions, not getting paid for summer and the real starting salary will amount to about €20,000

d) We will be on hugely different salaries to our colleagues who do the same work

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/discrimination_studentteachers_nqts/

Chucky the tree

Zooey wrote: »

For those who care about the issue, please sign this petition. Note that...

a) the degree allowance is not an "allowance" because a degree is a compulsory qualification for NQTs. Our salaries are being decimated.

b) There is no "age discrimination" going on because a large proportion of the student teacher population are in their 30s and 40s!

c) Permanent jobs are a thing of the past and if lucky enough to get a job NQTs will be in temporary positions, not getting paid for summer and the real starting salary will amount to about €20,000

d) We will be on hugely different salaries to our colleagues who do the same work

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/discrimination_studentteachers_nqts/

Why don't you start petitioning your teacher Unions to make sure older teacher take an equity hit instead of the Government?

Where To

Zooey wrote: »

For those who care about the issue, please sign this petition. Note that...

a) the degree allowance is not an "allowance" because a degree is a compulsory qualification for NQTs. Our salaries are being decimated.

b) There is no "age discrimination" going on because a large proportion of the student teacher population are in their 30s and 40s!

c) Permanent jobs are a thing of the past and if lucky enough to get a job NQTs will be in temporary positions, not getting paid for summer and the real starting salary will amount to about €20,000

d) We will be on hugely different salaries to our colleagues who do the same work

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/discrimination_studentteachers_nqts/

I think I can feel my heart bleeding.

Welcome to the real world.

Zooey

Where To wrote: »

I think I can feel my heart bleeding.

Welcome to the real world.

Attitudes like this actually make me laugh. Boards.ie's riddled with 'em.

Zooey

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Why don't you start petitioning your teacher Unions to make sure older teacher take an equity hit instead of the Government?

Two words: Croke Park. Ain't gonna happen.

Chucky the tree

Zooey wrote: »

Two words: Croke Park. Ain't gonna happen.

Yet a petition to the Government will?

Where To

Zooey wrote: »

Attitudes like this actually make me laugh. Boards.ie's riddled with 'em.

It's called public opinion because, eh, a lot of the general public have this opinion.

I'll sign your petition if you can convince me why a teacher is more important than me.

Zooey

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Yet a petition to the Government will?

INTO are claiming to be on our side. There's a lot more of a chance. Too many petitions spoil the broth.