Unions Demand Return Of Teachers Allowances

Mr Benevolent

Odysseus wrote: »

I agree with the teachers, I work for the HSE I am more qualified than most of the other therapists I work with. I put in the extra work to train to a higher degree, so I think that should be reflected in my wages.

In the private sector you are generally better paid the higher educated you are. I hope to get the cash to pay for a PhD, when I do so my clients will benefit, the service I work for will benefit, but personally within my job I won't. Should that be the the case?

If you want better trained people you have to pay for it.

Yes, but a better educated therapist is usually better at their job. The same doesn't necessarily follow for a teacher.

Southeast1

400 a week!!!
The dole is nearly 200, plus rent allowance, medical card and a myriad of other benefits.

I really think people really need to ask themselves what sort of people do we want educating our children. If you pay that sort of money, high calibre people will not be attracted to teaching, and those that are will leave once they realise they cant make a career at it.

Also, how do you assess what a teacher's performance is? How can you compare different types of schools, different level of pupils, differing family situations. Do you base it solely on exam results or what else would you have in mind?

ejmaztec

micropig wrote: »

No but I'll give you a gold star if you guess what I do;)

You train miniature mutant pigs to run around bonsai trees in model villages.

cursai

P.C. wrote: »

Acceptable wage for teachers starting out - about €400 a week.

From there, the increases should be based on performance.

Thats silly and ridiculous to propose such a low wage.. Petrol to work could cost €60 a week or more or less. Other costs of working could bring that down again.
The Social Welfare is €190 for Chri4ts sake. Why would they work for this little.

Naomi00

From reading some of the posts in this thread most of the people here are completely out of touch with this topic and have no idea what they're talking about. The whole thing about 'best paid job with loads of holidays' etc from the first page is total rubbish.

I'm in leaving cert, and this year we have a few new teachers. Because of the Croke Park agreement, cutbacks etc you can't hire new teachers on a proper contract. They're only working part-time in terms of pay, but still are expected to work as hard as the teachers who've been there for 20 years. They don't get paid a lot as it is, so taking allowances from them as well is not fair.

We have some really useless teachers who've been teaching for way too long and can't be bothered to put any effort in at all. Taking money from teachers who are actually doing their job isn't fair really.

Instead of things like this it's about time they cut TD's pay in half because they earn way too much and forget what their job actually is.

Boulevardier

I think these allowances are outdated and should be scrapped because people should be paid the same for doing the same work.

However, by that same token, I strongly object to new teachers being paid lesss than existing teachers for doing the same work.

The government are following a right-wing agenda in which a gulf is allowed to open up between existing public service staff and new staff. This is not only divisive, it is an implicit bribe to existing staff to keep quiet and not rock the boat.

micropig

New salary scales

The new salary scale reduces salary increments and allowances by 10%. In addition, new entrants to teaching will start on the first point of the scale. Previously teachers would begin on the third point of the scale. This represents an overall reduction in pay of 15% for new entrants.

Click here to view the new salary scales for new entrants

Not sure why they used to start at point 3. This may be just re-adjusting back to normal levels- ie start at point 1

Application of new pay rates
3. The 10% reduction in pay applies to basic pay, allowances and the supervision
and substitution payment.
(a) Basic Pay:
The 10% reduction applies to basic pay on all points of the incremental
salary scale. Daily and hourly rates for casual and non-casual teachers
in the primary sector and hourly rates for casual and non-casual parttime teachers in the post-primary sector have also been reduced. The
revised rates are set out in an Appendix to this Circular and can be
accessed by clicking here.
(b) Allowances:
The 10% reduction also applies to all allowances with the exception of
promotional allowances; ie special duties, assistant principal, deputy
principal and principal allowances.

Can these allowances be broken down by a teacher please?
a) lunch time supervision? Why can't eat you lunch in the next planning class you have that day? Planning should be at least done a week in advance (UK standard practice)



b)......



http://www.asti.ie/uploads/media/0040-2011_New_Pay_Scales_for_New_Appointees_to_Teaching_in_2011.pdf

jester77

cursai wrote: »

Thats silly and ridiculous to propose such a low wage.. Petrol to work could cost €60 a week or more or less. Other costs of working could bring that down again.
The Social Welfare is €190 for Chri4ts sake. Why would they work for this little.

Social welfare is way too high and why does everyone use it as a barometer?

Plus, why the hell would a teacher be paying €60 a week in petrol :eek: Any sane person would get accommodation close to where they are working

Southeast1

People say this discussion is not based on begrudgery but yet ever second post is about the lifestyles and holiday entitlements of teachers, instead of what is supposed to be about. The effect of these cuts on new teachers which ultimately will affect the quality of education in Irish schools for years to come.

On the subject of holidays. Can anyone actually show me any evidence to suggest that a shortening of the school year will have any positive impact on the quality of education in Ireland?

micropig

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Now class, does anyone know why the above calculation is flawed. I'll give you a clue, one reason ryhmes with Lune, Luly and Laugust. And the other one rhymes with - can't be fired unless you steal a child.

sssh you'll cause a riot

Only teachers know about that

Sin1981

Really interesting point made about 400 per week being no more than the dole + benefits.
There are a whole lot of people out there in various jobs, some people with degrees who are earning not much more than 400 per week. So, what does it say about the dole and benefits on offer???
If you go to a company tell them you want more than 400 or 450 per week because you work hard and you have a degree + MSc or whatever, what will they tell you????
yes, go hop it most likely. Real world. it's crap, but it's reality.

I agree though, that newly qualified teachers are taking the big hit when instead it's ALL teachers who should be taking some. If they were canvassing about conditions, class sizes, special needs facilities etc etc during the booms years half as much as they cared for their own pay packets, then we would have a good system, and people would be paid fairly for what they do.

incidently, I also have a few teacher friends, and they are the ones going on holidays, and upgrading cars. This is notbegrudgery, it's an observation I've made. I say Good luck to them, but I also wonder how fair this is when the money used for these purchases comes from money that was borrowed from abroad...

P.C.

Southeast1 wrote: »

400 a week!!!
The dole is nearly 200, plus rent allowance, medical card and a myriad of other benefits.

I really think people really need to ask themselves what sort of people do we want educating our children. If you pay that sort of money, high calibre people will not be attracted to teaching, and those that are will leave once they realise they cant make a career at it.

Also, how do you assess what a teacher's performance is? How can you compare different types of schools, different level of pupils, differing family situations. Do you base it solely on exam results or what else would you have in mind?

You asked the question.
I answered it.

Sorry if you don't like the answer.

The argument about what sort of people do we want teaching is a bit thin.
We want qualified people who ate good teachers.

There are plenty of people who do jobs that affect our children, who are paid minimum wage.

Does anyone know what the average industrial wage is?

Southeast1

24 weeks??? where are these schools?

micropig

Southeast1 wrote: »

People say this discussion is not based on begrudgery but yet ever second post is about the lifestyles and holiday entitlements of teachers, instead of what is supposed to be about. The effect of these cuts on new teachers which ultimately will affect the quality of education in Irish schools for years to come.

On the subject of holidays. Can anyone actually show me any evidence to suggest that a shortening of the school year will have any positive impact on the quality of education in Ireland?

Children will not be out of school for such a long break-its takes a while to get the routine settled back in and work started

More contact hours in classroom- more opportunity for knowledge to be exchanged
]
They'd be my two mains ones but I'll think of more after my cuppa)

Have you any justification why their so long holidays?

cursai

jester77 wrote: »

Social welfare is way too high and why does everyone use it as a barometer?

Plus, why the hell would a teacher be paying €60 a week in petrol :eek: Any sane person would get accommodation close to where they are working

May be they had a life before they started teaching. Maybe the school is inner city. Maybe the house are too expensive beside the school. Sometimes teachers dont get to pick and chose their schools. ESPECIALLY not nowadays where jobs are scarce in the education sector.

micropig

Sin1981 wrote: »

Really interesting point you made about 400 per week being no more than the dole + benefits.
There are a whole lot of people out there in various jobs, some people with degrees who are earning not much more than 400 per week. So, what does it say about the dole and benefits on offer???
If you go to a company tell them you want more than 400 or 450 per week because you work hard and you have a degree + MSc or whatever, what will they tell you????
yes, go hop it most likely. Real world. it's crap, but it's reality.

Teachers can get another job during the summer holidays-nothing stopping them!

Southeast1

http://budget.irishexaminer.com/news/budget-2011-questions-and-answers-484800.html

According to this 2010 average industrial wage is 36,000

Alot more than is being proposed for new teachers.

cursai

P.C. wrote: »

You asked the question.
I answered it.

Sorry if you don't like the answer.

The argument about what sort of people do we want teaching is a bit thin.
We want qualified people who ate good teachers.

There are plenty of people who do jobs that affect our children, who are paid minimum wage.

Does anyone know what the average industrial wage is?

Teaching is obviously not an average job. They don't stack children like in Tescos. Please think before posting.
I hope you dont send your kids to Tescos for an education by the guy who collects trolleys.

greimorm

Having extra doesnt make them good teachers.If they are going to do something like that.They should evaluate the amount of people that get good grades from teachers and if high ratio then give them extra.

Naomi00

Boulevardier wrote: »

I think these bonuses are outdated and should be scrapped because people should be paid the same for doing the same work.

However, by that same token, I strongly object to new teachers being paid lesss than existing teachers for doing the same work.

The government are following a right-wing agenda in which a gulf is allowed to open up between existing public service staff and new staff. This is not only divisive, it is an implicit bribe to existing staff to keep quiet and not rock the boat.

That might apply more to jobs in the private sector, but as far as teaching goes it does actually make a big difference for students. E.g a teacher who knows and understands a lot more about biology makes a class much more interesting than a teacher who only can teach whatever is in the book which is really, really boring. Same goes for most subjects.

I think you should be allowed to report teachers who are completely useless though. My maths teacher in 5th year used to come to class between 15-25 minutes late (out of a 35/40 min class) every day and we couldn't say anything about it. Now in sixth year our whole class is way behind because we'd miss at least an hour every week. People like that shouldn't have a job.

Lord TSC

It frustrates me that once again, doing things the "right way" has been all for nought. Looking back, I really should have just dropped out of school at 16, gone to work in Dunnes, had a family of 10 by the age of 21, live in a council house and sponged off the system for the rest of my life

Seachmall

cursai wrote: »

They don't stack children like in Tescos.

How do Tescos stack children?

P.C. wrote:

We want qualified people who ate good teachers.

sensibleken

dont forget a teacher also has to correct homework, do lesson plans which from teachers I know can mean they work late into the evening from very early in the morning. Its not an easy job

micropig

micropig wrote: »

Children will not be out of school for such a long break-its takes a while to get the routine settled back in and work started

More contact hours in classroom- more opportunity for knowledge to be exchanged
]
They'd be my two mains ones but I'll think of more after my cuppa)

Have you any justification why their so long holidays?

Is this question too hard to answer?

Nobody seems to have taken it on?

http://www.triplepundit.com/2010/10/would-more-time-in-the-classroom-help-our-education-system/

Just reading this about increasing contact hours.Yes it's the US but this article thinks its a good idea.There not studies from Ireland, will check the UK


I'll do a bit more research

Lord TSC

sensibleken wrote: »

dont forget a teacher also has to correct homework, do lesson plans which from teachers I know can mean they work late into the evening from very early in the morning. Its not an easy job

Ah now, come on. Don't you know we teachers roll out of bed five minutes before class and back into bed as soon as the school day ends. Homework corrections? Lesson plans? Extra activities? Conferences to keep up to date on our subjects. Pfft, don't be ridiculous. Sure all we do is mess about and have a laugh. Easiest job in the world :P

cursai

Seachmall wrote: »

How do Tescos stack children?

Dont be silly now. Sit in your seat there.

greimorm

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

It frustrates me that once again, doing things the "right way" has been all for nought. Looking back, I really should have just dropped out of school at 16, gone to work in Dunnes, had a family of 10 by the age of 21, live in a council house and sponged off the system for the rest of my life

Who has a family of ten and claims and lives in council,absurd description.
Teachers do not want for much.And some teachers should never have been teaching in first place.Violent bullies i had the luck of observing sometimes with kids.And some of them avail now of the might pensions.
I do however think if a teacher become a politician or something else they should be not allowed be Teachers anymore and should not be able to avail of teachers pension or vice versa.Like they forced the Garda to stop moonlighting.

P.C.

Southeast1 wrote: »

http://budget.irishexaminer.com/news/budget-2011-questions-and-answers-484800.html

According to this 2010 average industrial wage is 36,000

Alot more than is being proposed for new teachers.

So, if a teacher plans to work for 40 years, they should average 36K per year over the 40 years.
If they start on 21K, then after 40 years they will be at about 60K.

Seems fair to me, or am I missing something?

cursai

greimorm wrote: »

Who has a family of ten and claims and lives in council,absurd description.
Teachers do not want for much.And some teachers should never have been teaching in first place.Violent bullies i had the luck of observing sometimes with kids.And some of them avail now of the might pensions.
I do however think if a teacher become a politician or something else they should be not allowed be Teachers anymore and should not be able to avail of teachers pension or vice versa.Like they forced the Garda to stop moonlighting.

Your right, it IS absurd. Not the description. But this is Ireland.

Boulevardier

Naomi100, a teacher might have a Nobel prize in physics, but the physics curriculum he/she teaches is still the same, so surely knowledge of the curriculum, and expertise in teaching it, is all that matters?

Lord TSC

greimorm wrote: »

Who has a family of ten and claims and lives in council,absurd description.

It's called hyperbole, but I guess if you didn't have good teachers growing up, you might not know that :P

Teachers do not want for much.And some teachers should never have been teaching in first place.Violent bullies i had the luck of observing sometimes with kids.And some of them avail now of the might pensions.
I do however think if a teacher become a politician or something else they should be not allowed be Teachers anymore and should not be able to avail of teachers pension or vice versa.Like they forced the Garda to stop moonlighting.

Even as a teacher, I'd be all for a system whereby performance reviews could be implemented. The problem can be controlling them so that every kid with a vendetta could not just call out into play for something as simple as getting punishment for not doing homework. I know from experience that there's some kids who will point blank refuse to work for the teacher, and then go home and blame the teacher for their poor grades.

And as someone who'd love one of those jobs politicians are holding up by not retiring properly, I'll say I'd be all for that as well...

Southeast1

MIcropig.
In response to your question how I would justify 3 months holidays I would say that Irish teachers spend longer teaching in their classrooms than the Oecd average and therefore deserve longer holidays.
Also Irish teachers are the only ones in the OECD who get no recognition for work done outside the classroom. So, corrections, preperation, involvement in extra curricular activity are not recognised as part of the teaching contract. I would also say that in general the kids deserve and need a break because there should be more to life for them than what happens inside the 4 walls of a school.

I Heart Internet

Southeast1 wrote: »

People say this discussion is not based on begrudgery but yet ever second post is about the lifestyles and holiday entitlements of teachers, instead of what is supposed to be about. The effect of these cuts on new teachers which ultimately will affect the quality of education in Irish schools for years to come.

Lifestyle = (broadly) disposable income
Holiday Entitlements = (one important element of) productivity

As a taxpayer/employer of public sector workers I think these are very important issues to discuss since as a taxpayer/employer I am disasterously in debt

I strongly disagree that pay cuts mean reduced quality of education. This is a line very regularly trotted out by teachers unions. I would have them know that I will want even better (and verifiable) performance for teachers decreased salaries. That's right - I want you to work more often and more productively for less money!!! I understand this goes against everything public sector unions believe in.

greimorm

cursai wrote: »

Your right, it IS absurd. But this is Ireland.

How many Irish you know who have ten kids? Only family i know who had close to that,had 9 children and both mother and father worked and owned their own house.
I heard of the one who had a load of kids who were travelers and beat and molested the kids.
Now as for coming across any other family with more than 3 kids in Ireland is a non issue as there is hardly any.

midlandsmissus

Teachers are so well paid they are completely blinded to what is going on outside their own little bubble.

If you're on 700-800 a week I'm sure you would think 400 as shockingly low, but believe me there are people WITH degrees with 5+ years experience who are getting around this mark now.

There are plenty of people with degrees plus 5+ years experience who are on 250 a week on the Jobbridge scheme, just to get their foot back in the door.

Do teachers not realise this is happening?

Gophur

sensibleken wrote: »

dont forget a teacher also has to correct homework, do lesson plans which from teachers I know can mean they work late into the evening from very early in the morning. Its not an easy job

Nobody said it was easy. It is, however, very well compensated.

Can you justify why a teacher with honours and masters degrees should cost the State an extra €6k-€7k per year, for doing the same job as the teacher next door without those qualifications?


The average Male teacher's salary, before the Pension Levy, was €57,000 per year, the average female teacher's salary €52,000. (The disparity was due to less male teachers in the younger age group and more male teachers in Principals' Group) FOr those figures to be true, the top of the scale had to be very high. I know one man who was earning €95,000 p.a. I don't begrudge him that, but we, as a country, cannot afford to pay such salaries, especially when we are borrowing the money to pay them

McTigs

When i was in school, which was quite some time ago, teachers weren't paid anything close what they get now even allowing for inflation since and the standard of education was better than it is now.

This is because back then teaching was regarded as a vocation and teachers were genuinely interested in educating.... apart from a few who were just in the job too long, there was one or two of them in every school. Since then the pay and conditions improved significantly and teaching moved from being a vocation to becoming a very lucrative career choice.

Better pay and allowances has not led to better standards, in fact standards that once attracted so much FDI have plummeted to the point where 10% can't even pass basic maths. Teachers have become so spoilt and disinterested a lot of them won't even hold parent teacher meetings outside of school hours.

I say reduce the pay and cut the allowances and then maybe we'll see the genuinely interested taking it up again and we could channel the money saved to proper investment in education in the shape of facilities. Right now we have the farce of teachers driving a bmw into school to teach in a prefab.

Having said all that, of the unions are entitled to demand whatever they want, that's their job.

Southeast1

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Lifestyle = (broadly) disposable income
Holiday Entitlements = (one important element of) productivity

As a taxpayer/employer of public sector workers I think these are very important issues to discuss since as a taxpayer/employer I am disasterously in debt

I strongly disagree that pay cuts mean reduced quality of education. This is a line very regularly trotted out by teachers unions. I would have them know that I will want even better (and verifiable) performance for teachers decreased salaries. That's right - I want you to work more often and more productively for less money!!! I understand this goes against everything public sector unions believe in.

How do you propose to verify teaches performance?

cursai

greimorm wrote: »

How many Irish you know who have ten kids? Only family i know who had close to that,had 9 children and both mother and father worked and owned their own house.
I heard of the one who had a load of kids who were travelers and beat and molested the kids.
Now as for coming across any other family with more than 3 kids in Ireland is a non issue as there is hardly any.

I know loads of them. I also knows loads who have 5, 6,7,8,9 kids with noone working. This is not exaggerating. There are families out there raising generations of scroungers. Not representative of the average family size but enough to be noticed by people who work around them.

micropig

Southeast1 wrote: »

MIcropig.
In response to your question how I would justify 3 months holidays I would say that Irish teachers spend longer teaching in their classrooms than the Oecd average and therefore deserve longer holidays.
Also Irish teachers are the only ones in the OECD who get no recognition for work done outside the classroom. So, corrections, preperation, involvement in extra curricular activity are not recognised as part of the teaching contract. I would also say that in general the kids deserve and need a break because there should be more to life for them than what happens inside the 4 walls of a school.

Time is factored in to your timetable for the above


- how many contact hours do secondary teacher have with pupils a week (physically teaching them in a classroom)
and be truthful

I Heart Internet

sensibleken wrote: »

dont forget a teacher also has to correct homework, do lesson plans which from teachers I know can mean they work late into the evening from very early in the morning. Its not an easy job

So what your saying is "teachers must do their job and teach"

greimorm

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

It's called hyperbole, but I guess if you didn't have good teachers growing up, you might not know that :P

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Ah sorry thought you were serious,i was quite lucky with mine barr one i hate her still lol


Even as a teacher, I'd be all for a system whereby performance reviews could be implemented. The problem can be controlling them so that every kid with a vendetta could not just call out into play for something as simple as getting punishment for not doing homework. I know from experience that there's some kids who will point blank refuse to work for the teacher, and then go home and blame the teacher for their poor grades.

And as someone who'd love one of those jobs politicians are holding up by not retiring properly, I'll say I'd be all for that as well...

Well if on going notebook in class of said child who is not working for the teacher,they would be removed from the equation in the evaluation of said teacher. Every one knows there is one or two of them kids.
I agree they should be barred from holding them jobs,its disgusting but again something the government hasn't addressed.

Southeast1

For your information.
All Parent teacher meetings are now held outside school time.

Lord TSC

micropig wrote: »

Time is factored in to your timetable for the above

It's really not. If you think that a teacher with 6 or 7 classes a day can do all the corrections in the two free classes they are scheduled, you're crazy.

Doing my PGDE, where I had two days a week, four classes per day, with 6 classes off each of those days, I was still going home with bags and bags of copies and workbooks to correct....

greimorm

cursai wrote: »

I know loads of them. I also knows loads who have 5, 6,7,8,9 kids with noone working. This is not exaggerating. There are families out there raising generations of scroungers. Not representative of the average family size but enough to be noticed by people who work around them.

I have never encountered that ever.

P.C.

cursai wrote: »

Teaching is obviously not an average job. They don't stack children like in Tescos. Please think before posting.
I hope you dont send your kids to Tescos for an education by the guy who collects trolleys.

Please explain how teaching is obviously not an average job.
Is nursing an obvious average job?
How about driving a bus?
Or, maybe farming?

greimorm

Southeast1 wrote: »

For your information.
All Parent teacher meetings are now held outside school time.

Actually not really they send the kids home early and then the teachers have the meetings after school hours.And arent they paid for that?

Lord TSC

greimorm wrote: »

Actually not really they send the kids home early and then the teachers have the meetings after school hours.And arent they paid for that?

The schools I've been part of in recent times do not send kids home early, and as far as I know, they don't get paid extra nowadays for PT meetings...

midlandsmissus

Nobody's saying teaching is an easy job, but why should you get allowances? Where's the justification for it?

What is the standard practice for other professions in the public service, were anyone else receiving allowances, or just the teaching profession?

sensibleken

I Heart Internet wrote: »

So what your saying is "teachers must do their job and teach"

um what?