Unions Demand Return Of Teachers Allowances

cursai

greimorm wrote: »

I have never encountered that ever.

You dont work with the public. Thats why we have the uproar over a welfare state. An now we begrudge Teachers because they arent 'vulnerable'.

micropig

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

It's really not. If you think that a teacher with 6 or 7 classes a day can do all the corrections in the two free classes they are scheduled, you're crazy.

Doing my PGDE, where I had two days a week, four classes per day, with 6 classes off each of those days, I was still going home with bags and bags of copies and workbooks to correct....

Usually you tell m 6-7 classes a day, 2 planning classes a day & 1 hour off for lunch each day? nice



Your PGDE is a heavier workload than real teaching time of 6 classes to plan for 4 classes-You'll need to get yourself more organised!


You will get quicker at planning classes all part of the learning process

steddyeddy

I would support a return teaching allowances if it was easier to root out the teachers less qualified to teach. I dont mean teachers who make an effort rather those who are alcohilics, never turn up, bully a pupil or simply dont think a desire to teach is required to be a teacher. There is an abundance of teachers like that in the system who cant be got rid of. Ironically change the unions and they desrve every penny and that way you free up money for the good teachers.

Lord TSC

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Nobody's saying teaching is an easy job, but why should you get allowances? Where's the justification for it?

I would imagine the justification is that if someone spends their time and money to improve their education before going on to try and educate others, they should be rewarded for that effort.

I know this is a shocking concept for some in Ireland, but trying to further educate yourself should actually be commended, not ignored, or worse, chastised...

Anyway, truth be told, I do appreciate why they are trying to cut these allowances. My real annoyance is how once again, the two-tier system is being forced in, where someone doing the same job as me but who started a few years back gets paid more for doing the same job as me....

Southeast1

micropig wrote: »

Time is factored in to your timetable for the above


- how many contact hours do secondary teacher have with pupils a week (physically teaching them in a classroom)
and be truthful

Time is factored in for some prep and planning (no where near what actually takes place per week though) but not for extra curricular activities which are the life blood of schools.

As for contact hours 22 per week plus up to 3 periods of supervision and substitution. But in terms of teaching 22. I don't think that any great secret.

It works out at 735 hours per year.
For the purpose of comparison,
Belgium is 724 hours
Germany 715 hours
Norway 633
Sweden 579
Finland (of whom so much is spoken) 592

The OECD average is 703
EU average is 661

greimorm

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

The schools I've been part of in recent times do not send kids home early, and as far as I know, they don't get paid extra nowadays for PT meetings...

They do up this end of Dublin.

cursai wrote: »

You dont work with the public. Thats why we have the uproar over a welfare state. An now we begrudge Teachers because they arent 'vulnerable'.

I work with people everyday and i am observant of how many kids are in families around me.I have yet to see the size of kids you say trail behind these awful awful dole scroungers.As all welfare people have ten kids.I see lol

ejmaztec

Southeast1 wrote: »

Time is factored in for some prep and planning (no where near what actually takes place per week though) but not for extra curricular activities which are the life blood of schools.

As for contact hours 22 per week plus up to 3 periods of supervision and substitution. But in terms of teaching 22. I don't think that any great secret.

It works out at 735 hours per year.
For the purpose of comparison,
Belgium is 724 hours
Germany 715 hours
Norway 633
Sweden 579
Finland (of whom so much is spoken) 592

The OECD average is 703
EU average is 661

How do the education standards in those countries compare with here?

cursai

P.C. wrote: »

Please explain how teaching is obviously not an average job.
Is nursing an obvious average job?
How about driving a bus?
Or, maybe farming?

Nursing i wouldn't consider to be average as they are working with illnesses and people on a personal level. Not exceptional either though.
A bus driver would be average ye. E.g: Look im driving...a bus.
Farming i dont think so. Takes a lot of hard work perseverance and ingenuity to be a farmer.
Teachers work with children, all types, id consider it to have a lot of responibility and accountability.

micropig

Southeast1 wrote: »

Time is factored in for some prep and planning (no where near what actually takes place per week though) but not for extra curricular activities which are the life blood of schools.

As for contact hours 22 per week plus up to 3 periods of supervision and substitution. But in terms of teaching 22. I don't think that any great secret.

It works out at 735 hours per year.
For the purpose of comparison,
Belgium is 724 hours
Germany 715 hours
Norway 633
Sweden 579
Finland (of whom so much is spoken) 592

The OECD average is 703
EU average is 661

Link?

gurramok

Southeast1 wrote: »

Time is factored in for some prep and planning (no where near what actually takes place per week though) but not for extra curricular activities which are the life blood of schools.

As for contact hours 22 per week plus up to 3 periods of supervision and substitution. But in terms of teaching 22. I don't think that any great secret.

It works out at 735 hours per year.
For the purpose of comparison,
Belgium is 724 hours
Germany 715 hours
Norway 633
Sweden 579
Finland (of whom so much is spoken) 592

The OECD average is 703
EU average is 661

What is the point of this, they deserve to be paid 28k for new teachers??

Have you not noticed Ireland is broke, we cannot afford to pay the same or better rates than teachers in those countries. A reality check is needed for those living in denial.

cursai

greimorm wrote: »

They do up this end of Dublin.


I work with people everyday and i am observant of how many kids are in families around me..As all welfare people have ten kids. I see lol

You'd have to be interacting with them on a related basis to form an accurate opinion.
"As all welfare people have ten kids" Didn't say that.
"I have yet to see the size of kids you say trail behind these awful awful dole scroungers" Why would they create a trail. There not a human centipede. i doubt its a thing of pride for them either.

louiseok01

Dole + rent allowance + fuel allowance= 256 euros per week

New teachers will only get 144 euro more after tax etc and will not get a medical card.

I did a degree + MA + Hdip and am will be getting paid 144 euro more than people on the dole...

Degree fees were 20, OOO EURO
MA was 15, 000
Hdip was 10, 000

this is just fees not including extra loans that were taken out for living expenses....how do they expect new teachers to pay back fees and loans and put food on the table?

Regarding the hours and holidays, teachers use this time to prepare lesson plans, fill out reports, do corrections etc for the following year. When a teacher finishes at 3 he or she spends at least 2-3 hours that evening correcting and preparing lessons for the following day.

At the end of the day education in general is going down the drain in Ireland, class sizes are crazy, nearly 40 students to one teacher in some schools. To add insult to injury, the gov want to pay teachers the min wage.

Southeast1

ejmaztec wrote: »

How do the education standards in those countries compare with here?

I cant speak for all of them but I know the Nordic countries, especially Finland are very highly regarded and do very well in international tables etc. Finland also has much smaller class sizes.
I would think that teachers have much more time to prepare, reflect, give students individual attention and therefore they have a superior education system. The Nordic countries also spend a higher proportion of their GDP on education.

micropig

cursai wrote: »

Nursing i wouldn't consider to be average as they are working with illnesses and people on a personal level. Not exceptional either though.
A bus driver would be average ye. E.g: Look im driving...a bus.
Farming i dont think so. Takes a lot of hard work perseverance and ingenuity to be a farmer.
Teachers work with children, all types, id consider it to have a lot of responibility and accountability.

But he has the safety of children in his care operating heavy machinery:( If He crashes children could end up dead,

If a teacher is bad, well the kids end up like us:p

Southeast1

micropig wrote: »

Link?

Taken form the OECD education at a glance report. I cant get a link for it for some reason.

c_man

Lol at the claims that this will erode teaching in Ireland. During the boom as pay sky rocketed for teachers, Irish education standards slid.

Southeast1

In fact Micropig those figures are for lower secondary education. The figures for Higher Secondary Education are lower (Not for Ireland of course!!!)

Boggling a little at people saying they're "only" getting up to double the dole

micropig

louiseok01 wrote: »

Dole + rent allowance + fuel allowance= 256 euros per week

New teachers will only get 144 euro more after tax etc and will not get a medical card.

I did a degree + MA + Hdip and am will be getting paid 144 euro more than people on the dole...

Degree fees were 20, OOO EURO
MA was 15, 000
Hdip was 10, 000

this is just fees not including extra loans that were taken out for living expenses....how do they expect new teachers to pay back fees and loans and put food on the table?


Regarding the hours and holidays, teachers use this time to prepare lesson plans, fill out reports, do corrections etc for the following year. When a teacher finishes at 3 he or she spends at least 2-3 hours that evening correcting and preparing lessons for the following day.

At the end of the day education in general is going down the drain in Ireland, class sizes are crazy, nearly 40 students to one teacher in some schools. To add insult to injury, the gov want to pay teachers the min wage.

Dole is too high cut dole instead of raising teachers to widen the gap if you so wish. Schools are crazy due to lack of funding, sna's etc. Instead of most of the education budget going on teachers wages (a significantly high% compared to education budget I'll get the exact figures in a minute)
why not invest our money in to schools. More SNA's, ipads etc?

cursai

micropig wrote: »

But he has the safety of children in his care operating heavy machinery:( If He crashes children could end up dead,

If a teacher is bad, well the kids end up like us

They might do but at least e=we know how to type.
Actually after i posted i thought id given bus drivers a bad deal there. But still there not comparable to a teacher whose tasks and responsibilites vary widely.:pac:

McTigs

Southeast1 wrote: »

I cant speak for all of them but I know the Nordic countries, especially Finland are very highly regarded and do very well in international tables etc. Finland also has much smaller class sizes.
I would think that teachers have much more time to prepare, reflect, give students individual attention and therefore they have a superior education system. The Nordic countries also spend a higher proportion of their GDP on education.

So we should reduce teacher pay and use the savings to reduce pupil teacher ratios?

ejmaztec

Southeast1 wrote: »

I cant speak for all of them but I know the Nordic countries, especially Finland are very highly regarded and do very well in international tables etc. Finland also has much smaller class sizes.
I would think that teachers have much more time to prepare, reflect, give students individual attention and therefore they have a superior education system. The Nordic countries also spend a higher proportion of their GDP on education.

It looks to me that they all spend less time with the kids and get more done. Perhaps their teachers are trained to a higher standard?

cursai

bluewolf wrote: »

Boggling a little at people saying they're "only" getting up to double the dole

Why boggled. The dole is free. So basically people are getting paid 200€ a week to WORK full time.(not including expenses of working. As not everybody lives in cities).

token101

finlma wrote: »

Of course they should get allowances. If you're more qualified in the private sector you get better pay as you offer more to the job. A teacher with a Masters degree should be paid more than a teacher with a normal pass degree.

It's very shortsighted to get rid of allowances. They cost very little in the grand scheme of things. If they are not offered then no one will look to educate themselves further. We need to be investing in education and improving the skillset of teachers. Getting rid of allowances is a retrograde step.

By the way a new teacher entering the profession now starts on less than €28k a year. Their weekly take home pay is not a whole lot better than the minimum wage. If we expect to get good quality teachers then we're going the wrong way about it.

I've a masters and I don't get anywhere near 28k a year. Can I get a government allowance to subsidise me? If not, then they can f**k off too.

Southeast1

McTigs wrote: »

So we should reduce teacher pay and use the savings to reduce pupil teacher ratios?

NO, if you read my post we should increase the percentage of our GDP that we spend on education. We are well below international norms and have been for years!

cursai

cursai wrote: »

Why boggled. The dole is free. So basically people are getting paid 200€ a week to WORK full time.(not including expenses of working. As not everybody lives in cities).

No, they're getting 400 to work full time.
Expenses have nothing to do with anything, everyone has them

cursai

token101 wrote: »

I've a masters and I don't get anywhere near 28k a year. Can I get a government allowance to subsidise me? If not, then they can f**k off too.

Depends on what your masters is in and whether your working in the relevant field. Did you pass your masters or was it in Pornology. Joke there!!

bamboozle

louiseok01 wrote: »

Dole + rent allowance + fuel allowance= 256 euros per week

New teachers will only get 144 euro more after tax etc and will not get a medical card.

I did a degree + MA + Hdip and am will be getting paid 144 euro more than people on the dole...

Degree fees were 20, OOO EURO
MA was 15, 000
Hdip was 10, 000

this is just fees not including extra loans that were taken out for living expenses....how do they expect new teachers to pay back fees and loans and put food on the table?

Regarding the hours and holidays, teachers use this time to prepare lesson plans, fill out reports, do corrections etc for the following year. When a teacher finishes at 3 he or she spends at least 2-3 hours that evening correcting and preparing lessons for the following day.

At the end of the day education in general is going down the drain in Ireland, class sizes are crazy, nearly 40 students to one teacher in some schools. To add insult to injury, the gov want to pay teachers the min wage.

question 1 - are you being forced to be a teacher?
question 2 - should salaries be based on the fees and loans the prospective employee has at time of application?

so all teachers spend 2-3 hours every evening plus their holidays prepping? i know plenty of teachers and that's garbage.

nothing against teachers but as a previous poster said its the best paid part time job in the country, if you're not happy with the conditions go work in the UK or change professions. The country is broke.

McTigs

Southeast1 wrote: »

NO, if you read my post we should increase the percentage of our GDP that we spend on education. We are well below international norms and have been for years!

No can do on the % of GDP, we're broke see.

Best to reduce pay and reduce class sizes. If the leaving cert results improve in a few years we can look at teachers pay again.

micropig

Southeast1 wrote: »

In fact Micropig those figures are for lower secondary education. The figures for Higher Secondary Education are lower (Not for Ireland of course!!!)

Do you have a link please to more recent figures only one I can find 2000 on OCED website?

Naomi00

Boulevardier wrote: »

Naomi100, a teacher might have a Nobel prize in physics, but the physics curriculum he/she teaches is still the same, so surely knowledge of the curriculum, and expertise in teaching it, is all that matters?

What I mean is that if your teacher isn't very good, the class is boring, no one bothers to do any work and the class really hate the subject, which just means you don't learn anything. A good teacher who puts in a lot of effort makes a huge difference. If they make the class interesting, even if they tell you about things that aren't in the curriculum it makes you pay attention because you like the subject more.

My biology class had an awful teacher last year and we learnt nothing, but we have a new teacher now and it's gone from being the more boring of my subjects to one I actually like. The same goes for everyone else in our class.

Unfortunately there's no actual way to get rid of bad teachers unless they retire.

c_man

token101 wrote: »

I've a masters and I don't get anywhere near 28k a year. Can I get a government allowance to subsidise me?

We'll see. How about a week off to do learn how to use the newest version of Powerpoint?

cursai

bamboozle wrote: »

question 1 - are you being forced to be a teacher?
question 2 - should salaries be based on the fees and loans the prospective employee has at time of application?

so teachers spend 2-3 hours every evening plus their holidays prepping?

nothing against teachers but as a previous poster said its the best paid
part time job in the country.

I'm not a teacher. But i can guarantee they because i get to play Battelfield 3 when it happens every evening.

micropig

Have a look at this link to some of the countries you are comparing us to

Duration of education > Secondary level (most recent) by country

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/edu_dur_of_edu_sec_lev-education-duration-of-secondary-level

Then we'll talk further

tayto lover

Maybe we should just cut all wages by 50% Private and Public and just give it to the bondholders. Sure that's what we do best in Ireland, that and provide the entertainment at European conferences.

cursai

bluewolf wrote: »

No, they're getting 400 to work full time.
Expenses have nothing to do with anything, everyone has them

But there only €200 a week better of. (Before expenses of working which are relevant to everyone who is working).
if they didnt work how much worse off would they be. €150+/-?? euro and a lot more free time.
Im not arguing the downsides of being unemployed. But wheres the incentive to not be. €150+/- is not much.
THAT has to be sorted first.

micropig

Southeast1 wrote: »

NO, if you read my post we should increase the percentage of our GDP that we spend on education. We are well below international norms and have been for years!

How much of our current GDP do we spend on education?

McTigs

micropig wrote: »

How much of our current GDP do we spend on education?

and how is that broken down between teachers pay and capital expenditure?

token101

cursai wrote: »

Depends on what your masters is in and whether your working in the relevant field. Did you pass your masters or was it in Pornology.

It was a future skills needs course so I would imagine it was valuable otherwise the government would not have subsidised it. It's more useful than Padraig Pearses poetry anyway, which is what my teacher buddy has a masters in! Is he worth 33k starting a year for teaching primary kids to paint with seashells and glitter? I do in a roundabout way, yeah. I was offered 23k and grabbed it.

I suppose I lie, I took the Postgrad Dip in the end. So because I didn't finish my project, I probably don't qualify for the hopefully forthcoming government subsidy. Which I accept while I rue my disasterously planned project idea. But I do hope my classmates get it. Since they're more valuable than me because they completed a dummy iPhone app and wrote an essay on it

micropig

micropig wrote: »

Have a look at this link to some of the countries you are comparing us to

Duration of education > Secondary level (most recent) by country

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/edu_dur_of_edu_sec_lev-education-duration-of-secondary-level

Then we'll talk further

Anyone any comments on this link or are you still scrolling down to find Ireland?

(Its near the bottom):D

micropig

and here's a comparison between Ireland and the UK

http://www.nationmaster.com/compare/Ireland/United-Kingdom/Education

micropig

*taps fingers as tumble weeds roll by

cursai

cursai wrote: »

But there only €200 a week better of. (Before expenses of working which are relevant to everyone who is working).
if they didnt work how much worse off would they be. €150+/-?? euro and a lot more free time.
Im not arguing the downsides of being unemployed. But wheres the incentive to not be. €150+/- is not much.
THAT has to be sorted first.

You can't be serious

micropig

I'll just go and make the tea shall I?


Any comments, good bad or indifferent?

jester77

cursai wrote: »

But there only €200 a week better of. (Before expenses of working which are relevant to everyone who is working).
if they didnt work how much worse off would they be. €150+/-?? euro and a lot more free time.
Im not arguing the downsides of being unemployed. But wheres the incentive to not be. €150+/- is not much.
THAT has to be sorted first.

WOW is all I can say to that. Ireland is totally f*cked if people consider €150 a week more than the dole not worth working for

Naomi00

micropig wrote: »

Anyone any comments on this link or are you still scrolling down to find Ireland?

(Its near the bottom):D

...what exactly is your point? genuine question btw

It's generally taken that the level of education in Ireland is a lot higher than most other countries. And as for the amount of years, there were girls from Slovakia (on of the top countries on that list) on an exchange year in my school last year. They stay in secondary school for much longer, which is just really drawn out. I think it's because a lot of people don't go to college so staying in school longer is a good option for them.

byhookorbycrook

greimorm wrote: »

Actually not really they send the kids home early and then the teachers have the meetings after school hours.And arent they paid for that?

No, they don't, not allowed. Teachers are not paid for the extra hours worked under Croke park, 36 hours in total.

Schools are not allowed to use this Croke park deal time for training teams,cumann na mbunscol matches, school fundraising (and there's going to be a lot more of that from now on,as capitation is futher cut)sacraments,school concerts,quizzes, debates, overnight trips etc. etc. etc.

Fratton Fred

louiseok01 wrote: »

Dole + rent allowance + fuel allowance= 256 euros per week

New teachers will only get 144 euro more after tax etc and will not get a medical card.

I did a degree + MA + Hdip and am will be getting paid 144 euro more than people on the dole...

Degree fees were 20, OOO EURO
MA was 15, 000
Hdip was 10, 000

this is just fees not including extra loans that were taken out for living expenses....how do they expect new teachers to pay back fees and loans and put food on the table?

Regarding the hours and holidays, teachers use this time to prepare lesson plans, fill out reports, do corrections etc for the following year. When a teacher finishes at 3 he or she spends at least 2-3 hours that evening correcting and preparing lessons for the following day.

At the end of the day education in general is going down the drain in Ireland, class sizes are crazy, nearly 40 students to one teacher in some schools. To add insult to injury, the gov want to pay teachers the min wage.

You spend ten weeks in the summer preparing lessons? More fool you, you should piss off to your villa in Spain for two months like my kid's teachers do. Except the younger ones of course, they all go travelling.

Naomi00

Fratton Fred wrote: »

You spend ten weeks in the summer preparing lessons? More fool you, you should piss off to your villa in Spain for two months like my kid's teachers do. Except the younger ones of course, they all go travelling.

Bitter much?

This seems to be the only arguement AH can come up with.

micropig

Naomi00 wrote: »

...what exactly is your point?

It's generally taken that the level of education in Ireland is a lot higher than most other countries. And as for the amount of years, there were girls from Slovakia (on of the top countries on that list) on an exchange year in my school last year. They stay in secondary school for much longer, which is just really drawn out. I think it's because a lot of people don't go to college so staying in school longer is a good option for them.

Did you check out the direct comparison with the UK link?


It makes better reading - easier to see the direct comparison? Heres one

duration of secondary school
Ireland 5 years ranked 167th
uk 7 years ranked 27th - 40% more than Ireland